Mikelly

That's what I tried to capture in the article. This series of testing was truly an eye opener, and I personally think that our efforts should next be spent on blowing smoke, and testing pressures. Mike

Jeebuz... Can we RE-READ the thread from the beginning please? Thank you. Mike

Guys, I'd recommend we start another thread on the items that you'd think WOULD be tested in a follow-on session. Let's keep this one on track with what WAS tested. What I'm concerned about is mixing hypothesis and "ideas" to test with the outcome of the actual testing we did. AND I'd like to start ANOTHER thread on BOOKS and links that might help us all understand what's going on in this thing we call aerodynamics. The reason I came on so strong w/ JonM. in reference to the ducting for the radiator/BOX was because at this point I personally don't even want to "think" I understand this stuff. There were a lot of assumptions we made that didn't pan out during the testing, which makes me no longer assume a specific mod will "work". Mike

You will not be disappointed... Great ride! Mike

I won't debate "IF" a box would have worked, since it wasn't tried. But Bob Smith has tested hundreds of cars, and his insite was amazing. All these boxes on these cars could very well be tested, or could very well be something people "Think" is a good idea. Until we test them, I'm listening to the man that does this stuff for a living. he wasn't wrong pretty much every recommendation he made... choice is yours to trust a pro. I am. Mike

Jon, No. Not according to Bob Smith. His comments were that you're going to get air packed in under the hood... There's no getting around it. Sealing off the nose of the car in general, like Roddy Sugg's car does, is an effective way to deal with the area at the mouth of the car. Look at the test data for #28, along with the other data for closing off the grill in other tests... Also, remember, air is exiting the radiator/fan assembly at 15mph. You're travelling a lot faster than that (we hope) and what does that create? An area for air to pack up and create lift. Forego the whole "Aerodynamic downforce" theory of yours for a moment and think about just closing off that gaping hole in the front of the Zcar, known affectionately as the "grill". Do that, provide minimal feeding for air, and then funnel that air to your radiator however you wish, via ducts, tuning, sheetmetal/plastic radiator box, or whatever. Just remember that the air isn't travelling any faster than that, which means the larger that opening, the more air is getting caught there... and remember the first lesson we passed on from our friend Bob Smith. What happens at the very front of the car will impact everything else along the way... Total package, JM. Total Package! Mike

Those who JUST submitted (BobH, Strotter, and another member), You're requests have been approved... Mike

Gang, We've posted the data and it's now safe to start discussions on the testing! All members who signed up before May 1st 2007 are approved for entry! To initiate a request to join: Click on your User Control Panel (User CP) in the upper left menu bar. Scroll down the left hand menu under Miscellaneous select Group Memberships You will see the “AeroTech” group listed, select the radio button on the right that says “Join Group” and then click the “Join Group” button. Type in the Reason for your request if you feel like it then click the “Send Request” button. You will have to wait until one of the admins approves your request before you can access the new Forum. Mike

Yup... Greenlight GO for windtunnel discussions... LETS GET IT ON!!! Mike

Well lets backtrack to the other comment you made for a second... You're worried about an extravigant sheetmetal box for the radiator, but you missed the whole section on how the radiator only needs 2X4 inches of space to stay cool... That sheetmetal "box" is probably effective at doing that, but probably isn't as big of an aerodynamic aid as you might think, so you have to think in different terms there. Now, Bob Smith commented that the winglets Roddy has on the sides of the fender flares are not effective because they don't cover a section of the tire, effectively running the length of the fender flare down to the chin spliter. Covering the whole face of the tire does help aid in assistance. My guess is if we'd had the money to do the other tunnel with the rollers on the tires, we'd have been able to see that in the tests with tests 20-25! I'd recommend going back and re-reading the article and the data a few times. I've studied it for two weeks, and my notes I took from conversations with Bob. It was highly informative and totally frustrating trying to keep up with his intellect! :laugh: Mike

Jon M., We didn't test any advanced airboxed. We tried to stick mostly with basic stuff. As to the comments about the spoilers covering the wheel/tire competely, Bob Smith had had some interesting comments in regards to this issue as well... The MSA Type3 with the ZG flares did an excellent job covering the face of the tire. Roddy's car had his stock small MSA 2.5 inch rear spoiler. We made no changes to the rear of his car. Mike

OK Gang, The initial post and pics are done. I'll edit and add links to video over the coming weeks, but feel free to discuss the findings. I'd like to thank the following people for making this happen: John Hines for finding the folks at Aerodyn2 and making the initial investment in time for making this happen! Also for his hard work and time away from the family in making the Pantera hatch. The effort put forth was a real eye opener! John Tedder for pulling the group together and coming up with a plan, and for putting up with a huge amount of ribbing from yours truly... Johns is one of the best guys to hang out with and chew the fat! Mark Ulrich and Roddy Sugg, for working on a plan, along with JohnT. and Tom Barnett, and for their hard work, thoughtful designs of pieces used, and work towards getting companies to donate parts. Tom Barnett, One of the sharpest knives in the drawer. Tom worked doggedly during this whole process and came up with the ulimate test plan, along with John T., and worked hard to keep us on track during the tests. Tom's attention to detail was simply amazing. His efforts towards getting vendors to step up forged a relationship with MSA, APR and SDI that made this event much more successful. Austin Hoke, for showing up and busting his butt all day. He pretty much did as asked and gave a lot of ideas along the way. It does my heart good knowing that there are sharp, mature, and talented young guys like Austin within the HybridZ community! Tom Harris, For being my co-pilot, pal, and friend during this epic adventure. Tom, alot like Austin, is the kinda guy who'll jump in head first, get dirty, and give thoughtful insite along the way. These youg guns are truly the future of HybridZ! Mark Icard, for showing up late and making up for lost time. Mark is a dentist by trade, but doesn't mind using his, rather large hands to dig in deep and get dirty. He's also one heck of a generous guy, and offered up significant donation funds during the donation drive! David Spillman, for not only donating a fair chunk of change during the donation drive, but also PAYING an employee of his to drive his car trailer up to Mooresville, with a very special 240Z inside. David recognized the chance to make history and wasn't affraid to let us use the car for the testing. HybridZ as a community. You folks are a cut above. I've never seen an internet car club come together in times such as this. We made history, and you folks were all a part of making it happen. This test data, the images, and the video is yours. I just hope you appreciate and use it for the true treasure that it is. It was hard work collecting the funds, defending the slips in schedules, dealing with the many barbs from other bulletin boards, and making this happen. The support given by the folks on this site made it all worth the hard work and long hours producing this product! Thanks you all for your support and enjoy the data! Mike Kelly Administrator HybridZ

I refuse... It was too embarrassing! Can you spare a nickle? Just one? Mike

We want to hear more about this move... Is he running from the law again? Fess Up Larry! Mike

Gang, Here's the Data in JPEG. Also, I will be linking the video to the article later. I'm trying to get as much to you folks as quickly as I can, so be patient! The numbers on the left under each test title will correlate to the article I wrote. How to “read” the data being provided… A little explanation of the fields… C coefficient (of) D drag F front L lift M moment R rear C LF front lift neg # = lift, pos# = down force on front end C LR rear lift neg # = lift, pos # = down force on rear end Y M yawl moment pos # = right side down, neg # = left side down Q down pressure on entire car measured near center of roof C PM pitch moment pitch of car front to back neg # = front is down pos # = rear down C S side force neg # = left side drag pos # = right side drag C RM = roll moment (Not as applicable to our cars) Drag HP horse power needed to overcome drag Drag lb coefficient of drag expressed in lbs for both front and rear Mike

I'm with you davy... Old and all... My first BMX race was when I was 12, and I was on a Quadangle, if you can remember back to 1978! Nothing like hitting tabletops and hoops! Mike

Been for many years, and have five mountainbikes in the collection right now. I honestly got burned out road and mountain cycling and took the last two years off... That said, I've got 2.5 miles of single and doubletrack on my property and behind it... I'll me dusting off the bike in the AM tomorrow... Been a long time... I raced back in the late 90s/2000-2002 timeframe, did some 12 hour endurance solo racing, and team endurance racing, and placed 3rd overall in the Mid-atlantic race series in 1999. Have a bunch of medals and trophies for the effort, lots of worn out bike parts, and lots and lots of scar tissue from the many impacts... Mike

DAYUM!!!!!! Smokin'! Mike

I really didn't want to take this down, but until the other issue is resolved, we'll have to... Mike

I Just approved over 40 requests to get in... Mike

And how!

I agree whole heartedly. I'd forgotten, but man, it's kickin' my butt... An hour doing the heavily wooded trails behind my house and I'm toast! My business partner races harescramblers, and is doing Pikespeak this year, so maybe I'll be jumping into that whole deal next... He just got back from doing the American Supercamp and learned more in two days than in the past 10 years. Mike

I'll let you know how the PS Cups work out on my 996TT pig next month. Have a set mounted and ready to go for Summit Point's Jefferson Circuit! Mike

Good advice all, and I can assure you I'm not new to dirt... Raced motocross as a kid and have been doing the downhill/montainbike thing for years... Just forgot about MX and how physically demanding it can be... This bike is a Yamaha WR250F and is piped and jetted, and is stupid fast. I don't get on it at all without my MX boots, knee/elbow pads, chest protector, motoX pants/jersey, and helmet/goggles/gloves/earplugs. After breaking my wrist last year on the CRF 150, I don't go near the bike without full gear. The downtime is just too long. Doc, you need other hobbies! Maybe cheat on the right hand with the left? Mike

So heres the deal... Last year I bought a little CRF150 dirtbike not long after I moved into the new place... It was fast, set up for mini supermoto racing and was a lot of fun, but too small for serious off roading. Enter my business partner and his need for a KTM400 dirt bike to go with his KTM560 Supermoto. So I bit and bought the bone crusher (Yamaha WR250F) from him not long before Xmass, and in February I sent it off to the shop to get it setup for my ever growing arse... Since getting marries five years ago, I'd packed on an additional 50, FITTY, FIVE ZERO POUNDS So I had the suspension worked so I could have it setup for a 200# person. At that time I was at 230# , but was on the Nutrisystem diet... Dan Marino Should be shot... Anyway, I got the bike back about a month ago, and it rides GREAT, flies, doesn't bogg down on the suspension, sticks in corners, but does everything I need it to... And I'm at 200# now, which is great... However, That Nutrisystem diet? Yea, I was on it for 30 days, and in that time span, my blood pressure and my cholestoral went WAY up. I've NEVER had a problem with either, until this diet. Word to the wise... Consult a physician before going on Nutrisystem. My Dr. told me this was a VERY COMMON short term side-effect to this particular diet... I'm happy to say that an hour of riding the dirt bike 3 times per week has me dropping weight like an aids patient, and I'm more fit than in a long time. I'm also happy to say that the Nutrisystem diet is off my list of things to do... Who'da thunk "riding" dirt bikes would be such great excersise? Back to analysing Aerodata! Mike