Gollum

No responses guys? Well from the looks of things I'm thinking it's too much work when compared to a simple trip to the junkyard in a few months. Then I can hunt around for a ratio I like that's bolt in-compared to having to open up the diff and tearing it apart. Knowing me, first time I open up a diff to rebuild it I'm going to botch it up pretty good. So I'll wait until someday down the road to practice that art.

Wait, isn't that why I started this thread? It's really a sad reality. Regarding the weight, from the numbers I've seen on ACCURATE scales, almost all of nissan's cars were sand bagging a bit in the weight ratings all through the 80's and even early 90's. My S130 weighs around 2650 with nothing but the spare removed. I don't think my t-top cars were much heavier really, but they were all pre-82. I like that the S130 needs a good 245 or so wide tire just to come close to filling the STOCK flare. There's tons of room in there for meat. I like that the front end is better engineered from an aero perspective. I like that the front suspension seems to do it's job a little bit better. I like that I don't have to convert to disk brakes, but have them from the get go. I like that I have a huge fuel tank that will get me 500 miles if I'm getting really good gas mileage. I like that I can run a taller wheel without screwing up the suspension so much, allowing me to run some of the more modern wheel combos. I like that there's more breathing room between me and my passenger. I like that there's a little more cargo space for car parts. And more than anything else, I like that they're consistently dirt cheap. I just need to get out of this state apparently.

That's a scary bold statement, but you have the track time to have weight to that opinion. But that being said, looking at your ZX is hard to call it just "well layed out". You done more dream mods than most other S130's on this forum put together. All that said, I highly respect you, your car, and that statement you made.

First off, quality post. Thank you. And this line shows why I STILL recommend the L28ET to the right person. If you're willing to take your time, they're still a great budget option. If you want to spend a few months looking around you'll probably come across a good deal. But to keep it budget, you need to be willing to fiddle with it's finiky EFI which can be a chore. It has to be the right person is all. It certainly brings a humble understanding of tuning though. For those that want to buy an engine this week... There ARE other options. I can find VQ's all day long from importers Chevy and Ford engines grow like weeds SR's (despite their issues) are extremely plentiful KA's are nearly free Point being, many people automatically peg themselves into a singular option based on budget. In reality there's lots of options and lots of reasons to go with all of them. When I came to hybridZ, and Z cars in general, back in 03' I had a very limited view of engine options and figured I'd buy a Z and put a 350 chevy in one. Now I think that's the last option I'd ever consider, simply because there are so many wonderful options with these cars.

So, my 280Z has lots of vibration coming from the rear end. Plenty of the common shift clunking, but there's also a steady vibration that starts getting pretty bad at freeway speeds. And when I go over bumps there's loud banging from the rear driveline. I've driven the car in this state for probably a good 20k mi. and it hadn't really gotten worse, but last time I had the car up I couldn't find anything loose or out of place. Front diff mount seemed solid and such. Well a few weeks ago while I was under there I decided to check how much free play there is at the wheels. I know this isn't the most scientific test but I figured it was worth a shot. I was pretty certain the noises were coming from the driver side, not the passenger side. I go to move the wheel and I notice that there's a good 30 degrees OR MORE of free play before you feel the other wheel start to move. I go to the other side and it's like less than 5 degrees of movement, to where it almost feels immediate. So I figure, "Well shoot, I've got a spare R200 sitting around that I know is good, I'll throw that in". But there's the problem. It's a 280ZX turbo diff with the splined press in axles, not the bolt in axles. So here's the big question. Can I convert this R200 over to the bolt in axles using my R200 currently in the car without transferring over the problem? Any help would be appreciated. If the local gurus like John or Jon say just go get another diff, that's fine. I'll just make a run to the local yard sometime soon.

I've seen plenty of piss-poor examples go for $500 missing parts. I was lucky to snag my last longblock for $250 minus turbo, wiring harness, AFM, ECU. It was basically valve cover to oil pan with the exhaust manifold on it. And I had to pull it myself at the guys house! And I'm in the bay area where there's a huge concentration of Z cars. A GOOD condition motor that's 100% complete, ready for a swap, should fetch at least a $800 minimum anywhere in the country, over $1k would still be a fair price in this market right now in other places. I haven't seen a donor car (even non-running) on craigslist for under $2k lately. Edit: Oh, and I never said the OP SHOULD get a KA. I simply said that in certain circumstances it might be just as good of a swap. I'm the one who said to ditch the T5 and go with the KA trans on the L series and stick with it. I just wanted my opinion to be rounded so that people don't come to the conclusion that the L28ET is the be-all end-all budget option.

That was my point to begin with. CONVERTING the motor that the S30 ALREADY HAS, into a turbo motor by finding bits of it here and there will cost you MORE money than converting a KA to a turbo motor. Finding a complete L28ET in GOOD SHAPE has gotten expensive. This leads me to conclude, that for a real budget minded person the KA is on an even playing field with the L28ET, or even has a slight advantage. But, if you already have a L28ET, there's not really any point in switching at that point. Just stick with what you have, since changing motors will most likely end up costing more money in the long run. I personally want to go SR over KA for many reasons other than the whole "X motor has more HP potential for the $ invested". But overall you're right oddmanout, the KA for $500 is a killer motor that with the cost difference can really do some damage to the SR swap. That being said, I'll be spending closer to $1500 on my motor+tranny+wiring harness+ECU and Sensors, but a red top, not black top.

For the most part, I'm with you. At 350whp the L engine is a great option. The big question mark is what it costs to get a hold of one and what it takes to get it to the point of being ready to go. Many of the L28ET's you find have super high mileage with iffy compression test numbers. The YOUNGEST one, unopened from the factory, will be 27 years old now! 5-10 years ago low mile examples could be found, but it's gotten harder. Low mile blocks are much easier to find, but then you have to already have your exhaust manifold, turbo, wiring harness, AFM, ECU, and Dizzy to throw onto another long block. IF you can just go onto craigslist and find a L28ET for $500, or a whole donor car for $750 then sure GET IT!!!! I have a L28ET in my car and I really love it. That being said, the factory ECU SUCKS ARSE!!! I'm getting my shopping list ready to go megasquirt and it's probably going to cost me a touch over $800. If I had a KA I could just get it programmed for $100. That's a bit of cost savings. I'm having a hard time finding it, but once upon a time 1 Fast Z posted his personal numbers for KA head flow, SOHC and DOHC, and compared them to stock P90 and his best P90 port job and the numbers were hard to argue with. The DOHC stock flows insanely well, and the SOHC head flowed better than the P90 as well! Here's the link on his site about the DOHC flow numbers: http://bandmzcars.com/FrankPorted1.html And considering the KA is 2.4 liters stock it's not down much on displacement to the "moderately powered inline 6" you talk about. And yes, the KA will only rev to about 6500, but most turbo L motors under 400hp without head work are making peak power under 6k anyways.... Let's all just face it, both of these motor are great budget options, but neither is "better" or "best". Different strokes for different folks. Personally, though I'm going MS soon, I'll probably be swapping in a SR within a few years here. But that's just me.

That package uses the same spring perches, so no, there shouldn't be a problem at all. If you were going with a totally different strut tube from another car that had a larger diameter spring and perch THEN you'd have to be worried about fitment issues.

This is why a lot of people like Tony D talk about not even rebuilding the L motor, or even looking for motors that have been rebuilt because often more times than not, it hasn't been rebuilt even as well as it would have been done from the factory! I understand though. It's getting harder to find these motors with lower miles, while the KA motors people are finding for $500 and under are in much better overall shape. But both motors, if in good shape, have no reason to be cracked open at 350hp. And the KA swap can be done for CHEAP. Was I the only one watching the thread of the budget KA build? (can't remember the user, but the car was white, ran on ethanol) That was a cheaper build than even the CHEAPEST of the L28ET guys I've seen pushing those HP numbers. And they beat that car like a rag doll at the track over and over again with little to no real engine issues.

Sweet! That's what I was looking for. Thanks a million.

I just read in the other thread that you have the T5 tranny. Dump that POS like a bad date!!! Unless you're going to spend $1k+ on race gears being put in it just isn't worth it. And even the WC T-5 has a crappy case that flexes causing it to break. The "real" solution is to get an aftermarket case with high strength gears which costs $2-3k. Swap in KA transmission, $200 swap TOPS!!! Done! Sell the T-5 to some datsun nut that thinks it's worth something, get $50+ back.

Ok, someone with a running L28ET please help me. Run out to your car and tell me the wiring of the TPS. My motor's TPS wiring was a joke so I got a TPS connector at a junkyard from a NA, which has different colored wiring. So if someone can tell me which color wires go to which positions that'd be wonderful. Only two dang wires and I'm not sure I've got them connected right.

The L28ET is cheap, IF you don't go blowing your wad building them up. Plenty of people have made 400hp on junkyard motors. But people insist on just pouring into them on bottom end rebuilds with forged pistons, headwork including upgraded cams and valve trains, etc. It just adds up quick. But in reality all the parts you actually NEED to make that horsepower is the same weather it's spent on a L28 or KA. Big turbo Large Fuel injectors and pump Good computer to control all of it Then there's the little odds and ends like FMIC, fuel rail, etc. Where the KA really shines is that most of the turbo conversion parts are EASIER and CHEAPER to find than L28ET conversion parts. It makes way more sense to convert even the SOHC KA to turbo than the NA L series. But, as it's been stated. You already have a L28ET, and you've already poured a bit of cash into it. Just stick with it. The KA trans conversion can be done for a heck of a lot less than buying a new transmission, and once you've had the bellhousing modified you don't need to do it over and over again each time you blow a tranny. There are guys with L motors that have gone through 3+ L transmissions in a year. You won't have that many issues with the KA trans, making the $100 or so it takes to get the bell housing modified worth it. Spend money wisely, not just spend as little as possible. That's the key to a quality budget project.

One word: Energizer

Also remember that these clutches are working in a wet oiled environment. Your clutch on the flywheel is a dry environment. The clutch material that contacts the flywheel is not so different than brake pad material, and we all know that grease on your rotors is BAD for braking. Same thing in a diff. You have to take the oil into account. And in this environment, metal on metal for a clutch won't wear the same as it would dry, and will have a very different break away characteristic compared to dry. All that being said, I'm reading this reading up on what my options are for converting to a LSD down the road. Does anyone know what the clutch/spacer pack looks like in the power brute carrier? Some seem to say it's a lot like the Nissan unit in the Z31, but I can't find info on what the break away levels are like from as-ordered and if the same clutches could be used, or how many clutches it has in it.

And that right there is good information that I'd consider reliable. So what can we learn from his setup? That it takes a "whole package" mindset. He's running a fairly high duration cam and he's certainly done his research on timing curves, not just initial or total advance. I think some people also need a bit of a wake up call when it comes to compression ratios. Even 10:1 can be considered "low" in certain circumstances. There are Honda B engines running over 13:1 on pump gas out there, making 300+hp naturally aspirated out of 2 liters, again, on pump gas. Many people just assume a detonation issue is compression related, but it's a much more complex equation than that. Example: Say you're running stock SU carbs, that haven't been rebuilt or touched for a long time. So your engine starts to ping every now and then, depending on gas quality. You check your mixtures and you seem to be running plenty of fuel, maybe even a bit rich. You can chase your tail over and over again but your carbs might be the biggest issue, not the head or block needing to be pulled apart and cleaned. It could very well that you have dirty needles in the carb that aren't allowing as good and even of flow of fuel as they should. This results in poor atomization thus poor fuel distribution of fuel in the chamber, thus ping! Detonation isn't just heat related, and very rarely will you see ping in an engine across every cylinder. Tracking down what caused the ping is the biggest battle, and many times we tend to over look things. Maybe you have a cooling issue, or just simply your radiator cap is going bad so you're not at the psi you should be and running a tad hot. All that being said, just throwing together a high compression setup without doing your research can lead to a setup that just doesn't work. The problem might not be the compression ratio! Just some food for thought. I think for NA application any head will work. For force induction I personally prefer the P heads for the added quench while keeping compression ratios lower. Ping issues will come down to what pistons you run, your cooling system, your head prep work, and your fuel and ignition system and control. To Dan~ What fuel do you run? And what state are you in?

It's actually closer to 8.5:1 I believe. The stock L28ET is in the mid 7's! BRAAP seems to be a lot more conservative on this debate than others, and has plenty of experience and knowledge to back him when he says that these engines are very detonation prone. Thus he doesn't readily recommend higher compression setups (that I've seen). There's actually a very wide spread of what people have seen from different setups, showing that there's just too many factors involved to make a conclusive statement that "X" setup will work perfectly for anyone. Now, if we want to say that X setup in X conditions in X circumstances then we can make an educated guess as a community and be in something of an agreement. All that being said, I think that many would agree to an extent if I were to say that a P79 or P90 with flat tops is perfectly fine at stock-ish power levels, even on the stock EFI and dizzy. Many might also agree if I were to say that the P90 + Flat tops are fine even up to the 300hp level with the stock cam if fuel and ignition tuning is capable. Obviously a more aggressive cam will help this maintain a level of possibility, but it's just a factor. There are guys pushing well over 400hp on the stock L28ET longblock. I personally thing there's almost no cause for concern for us guys with stock heads pushing a measly 7-12psi. If you're having detonation problems at those levels you have something else WRONG. I even run my P90/dish combo on california 87 octane which is like running on urine. If I switched to flat tops I might have to consider putting in premium, but even our premium isn't as great as some states regular. Gas is a big ping factor, so remember that when people start bickering about what combo will or won't work.

Yes, post pictures! And if you're in the bay area, that means you have to come to my next yearly BBQ this summer so some people can see it in person to appreciate it.

Your backspace measurements look correct. These rims were designed to have as close to a 4.5" backspace as possible, as that was the measured safety net that should be a "decent" fit for the largest percentage of us out there in the S30. Personally, I think to avoid having ridiculously huge flares (just the amount of work involved is all, if you want to then go for it) you should go with something with more backspacing. With 4.5" you'll clear stock suspension components. The main limitation in front is the tension rod at full steering lock. If you don't mind rubbing, then compact coilovers should let you run a lot more backspacing, putting more of the wheel in the stock well.

Yea, you know it's a serious lack of effort when someone born and raised in the USA can't form a sentence better than most of the FOREIGN members we have on the boards... In all seriousness, how are there people who speak English as a 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th language, whom obviously don't have a firm grasp on our grammar, that can still be better understood than one born in this country?

Aww, sorry for the disconnection of terms between pound feet and foot pounds. My mistake! But in regards to straight line thrust, your math is exactly accurate. But let me take it from this route (I must admit everything you say is the truth, just the way we think about it seems different), as per this site here (I know, quoting the internet can be doddgey at times) http://www.car-videos.net/articles/horsepower_torque.asp We see it explained that WORK is simply torque causing movement, or torque applied. Torque without speed, I agree, will do nothing cannot be felt. This is probably where the difference of our semantics comes from. But as even stated there on that site, rotational movement power cannot be calculated as horsepower, but must be calculated from torque over time. An engine is a rotational device, as well is the transmission, rear gears, and wheels. These are all torque over time forces, and that's how they're calculated, even if it's an eddy current dyno with resistance that calculates the torque over time required to move it at a certain rate. But a car goes in a straight line, and as it goes in the straight line we can calculate the horsepower required to do so, such as calculating the HP of an engine from 1/4 mile times.

Heehee, we're spinning in circles here and in my eyes you're almost arguing my point. HorsePOWER is a misleading name in my opinion. But to some degree I can agree that knowing the POWER is a more concrete way of knowing the FORCE involved, but it has NOTHING to do with understanding the engine force in question. We humans are just using the term horsePOWER to bypass knowing all the facts and just knowing again "how much work will get done". But very sadly, people have taken this "how much work will get done" figure and assigned it to a FORCE, a law of physics. And the dyno meter example is not a true "mechanical" device like a torque wrench or a mechanical watch. It's an mechanical device with an electrical counterpart which requires at least a basic logic controller to do the equations. We might be able to "feel" what you call "power" but you can't actually feel work load. Going back to my wood stacker analogy, the weight, or stress, the worker will feel will be the weight of the wood in his arms and the stress this places on his body. This would be a TORQUE measurement. You hold out your arms, you put weight in your hands, it has a leverage on your arms. That's torque. The POWER, or WORK, in this equation is how much they'll move in the day. That has nothing to do with the FORCES involved, which are what are directly felt. I can agree though, that if I was going to be given only ONE figure in an equation, I'd want the workload figure. If you're given two of the three you can always calculate the third, so it doesn't matter which two you receive. And there lies why we always rely on the horsepower figure, because it's the COMBINATION of the FORCE over TIME, thus it's more meaningful to us. That' doesn't make it more meaningful to the laws of physics. And I disagree about 240hp at 60mph meaning you have 1500lbs of thrust at the wheels. By the very definition, FOOT POUNDS is directly related to TORQUE applied. Your transmission and rear gears MULTIPLE torque at the expense of SPEED. If you're in 4th gear (1:1 ratio) and you have a 4.11 rear end, being at 60mph and at a RPM that would yield 240HP at say, 4000rpm. That means the engine would have 315 FOOT POUNDS of torque. You then multiply that by 4.11 and you get 1294.65 pound feet of torque working at the rear wheel centerline on a 12" radius. If that 240hp engine had that power at, now lets say 6000rpm that means it's only applying 210 pound feet, multiplied by 4.11 would be 863.1 pound feet. Both cars would accelerate at the same rate if the given HP curves where the same. Why? Because the one that's applying less pound feet of torque is doing so at a HIGHER rate of speed. The one with more torque at the wheels wouldn't be faster because it's gaining it's torque through the sacrifice of speed. Thus the equations of work done would come out to be the same. Both cars would tie at the finish line.

I probable am just arguing semantics, so hopefully we can keep this lighthearted as we have thus far. But I do realize that the calculation from HP to watt is simple, but I was talking about the calculation to such from amps and volts in a circuit, hence why I mention cheaper meters don't measure watts. Measuring an amp or volt is easy, but most sub $20 meters won't have that slightly more complicated calculation to measure both at once and form the conversion. I think my point still stands, which is that HP isn't truly a power we see or feel, but simply a number we use to define something. You can very easily create a mechanical device to measure torque, as seen as how simple it is to make a torque wrench, and it's very easy to make a simple mechanical device that can keep time. But measuring horsepower or watts has always been more complicated and requires more complex calculations. You can make a torque wrench that measures it's own scale that's not accurate to foot pounds, but at least it's accurate to itself. You can make a time piece that might not follow exact seconds but will be extremely consistent in it's own right. You're not going to make a "simple" device that measures the watts used by a light bulb that has any bearing on reality, even by it's own scale, unless you can measure the force (torque/amp) and the time (rpm,volt) to some level of accuracy of relative scale from each other. To some extent I do agree that when you feel a car accelerate you feel the "power" of the engine, but what I'm getting at is that much of what we actually experience is a calculation that happens in our own heads without us even realizing. Instantaneous HP rating of an engine at a given RPM will be felt at corner exit, but I'm still not certain it's "HP" we feel, but rather TORQUE that's given momentum with time. Again, this is just based on the fact that torque is a much more real force in the world we live in.

I disagree, the FORCE the dyno sees IS the torque, you just can't know what the engine's torque is unless you also measure the RPM, thanks to the torque multiplication factor of the transmission, final drive ratio, and wheels. As you've just said, power is a measurement of work done over TIME. Thus you HAVE to actually CALCULATE only AFTER you know the torque measurement involved. It's the same as measuring a WATT. Most meters don't measure watts because it has to be calculated and cheaper meters aren't going to have that slightly more complicated ability built into it. You CAN however convert HP directly into WATTS. In this calculation AMPS is like the TORQUE, the FORCE involved that can be directly measured. The VOLTS is like the RPM which tells us how many cycles we have in a time frame. From having those two basic measurements we can then calculate the watt of a force over time. That's what I'm trying to get at though. Any measurement is going to measure a FORCE, which can only be described as torque, not HP. When you drive a car you don't ever feel the horsepower, you feel the torque. When a Honda hits Vtec you don't all of the sudden feel the peak HP of the car, you feel the huge bulge of torque that shows up out of nowhere. You can kinda of "prove" this in a sense when you consider that the force of that Vtec engine after it hits Vtec is a very even and consistent pull that keeps you in your seat. Looking at the torque curve on the dyno you see that it's very flat after Vtec, varying usually less than 10%. Getting into a muscle car like a pushrod mustang, you feel the loads of torque off the line, and it seems to put you into your seat MOST before the 3k mark. Look at the dyno on most "stockish" V8's and you see that torque drop off gradually after the torque peak and be way low by redline, thus they give you a long smooth HP curve. The only thing we can do in our mind to conceive the HP of a vehicle we're in, is to factor in our head how fast we're going, and then consider the variables of the weight of the car, road conditions, etc. We do this in our head so well we don't realize it. But in the end, SPEED is a direct relation to TIME. When you drive a Subie STI and you realize how amazingly easy you just got to 150mph on a freeway on ramp, you know in your mind there's a lot of power beneath that right pedal. Your mind has just done a calculation of the force involved in a matter of time. So again, horsepower is not a force, it's a figure we use to figure out how much work will get done. This is the common misconception that people bring into the age old torque vs hp debate. Because in the end we all know that you can't move a car without torque, or HP. It's just a matter of where people prefer the HP to show up in the RPM band, low down, or up high, or evenly across.