pparaska

I'm --- speechless at the moment. Since I posted last, I can not believe what I'm reading....I'm totally blown away.

What I'll never understand is why some people need to "mess with the admins", other than to look cool to their online buds. Talk about immature and counter productive! From this point forward, my tact will be to ban anyone that publicly taunts an admin of this site. That's like giving the host of a party you're at an insult in front of everyone. I don't think any one of us would put up for that in a second in their home. People like that can go form their own I-hate-the-HybridZ-Admins forum and have at it with their buds - they won't be around here any longer.

Terry, I just got done looking at a bunch of your new pics on the fototime site. I was afraid I wouldn't like the street version of your car as muc has the old race version, but I think they are the two best looking Zs ever! I Totally agree! That new Shelby is beautiful. Too bad I won't be able to afford one!

Not sure if this has been posted before.... http://www.cardomain.com/id/chevyz240 Personally, I love it!

That's a very interesting read - I just finished it. It also points to alot more reading in the references at the end. I'd love to see a point-by-point counter to that article by a paleoconservative or hard or soft liberal (new terms for me!)

Dan, that sucks! That's the reason I have a urethane one. Not as unique or sexy, but damned durable! Plus, I know I'd pull up too close to a sidewalk or curb when parking and bust a fiberglass one! Will it be difficult to fix and have the paint matched? Best of luck,

I say no to membership dues. I agree with the reasons already given for not having them (people will feel entitled, how to handle banned, paid members, etc.) plus I think people who can afford to pay can be troublemakers as well. I could name a few examples, but won't. The hammer will continue to come down from me. I have been working 75-80 hours a week for the last 3 months, so I haven't been on much, nor before that time. But I WILL drop the hammer, and it seems to get quicker as I can see that not doing so quickly hurts the rest of the members. Please PLEASE email the admins if you feel someone is out of line. We may not be on when someone goes off the rules, so let us know! I really like the "HybridZ is a closed party at my house" metaphor. IF you wouldn't say something to someones face at the governor's house party, don't say it here. The governor's bouncers are getting less and less tolerant of bad manners.

That's the beauty of HybridZ. We DO get technical!

YES. Exactly what i'm trying to say. I do not believe the loads applied by the rear towers will compromise the bar i used. You understood my OPINION on this whole discussion right here. This has been exactly what i've been saying from the beginning. Perfect. The sentence "I do not believe the loads applied by the rear towers will compromise the bar i used." of the paragraph above is probably where we haven't really communicated correctly yet. If by compromise, you mean cause it to fail due to insufficient strength, my gut tells me the same thing yours does. But I've been fooled by my gut feel before on structural problems - which is why I prefer to actually analyze the problem with the details of the material, geometry, and loads. In fact, I broke down in New Jersey because of an eye-ball alternator bracket design on my Z. Repeated flexure of the section near a hard point (stiffer in bending) in the bracket caused it to fatigue and fail. Thanks to a New Jersey bud who I knew that lived close by, I got back on the road that night after repairs in his garage! Teaches me for following my gut feel! But strength hasn't been my point at all - it's been STIFFNESS - i.e., that it will DEFLECT appreciably more than a straight bar of the same cross-sectional properties would. That assertion (by me) is based on engineering fact. Were I do agree with you is that the loads and details of the end conditions (fixity) of the bar, as well as the geometry of the bar must be know to analyze whether it will fail or not. In fact, the shear fact that the curved bar is less stiff is part of the reason I think the bar it self will be fine. Softer structures under the same loading as a stiff one, in general will have lower maximum stress, with alot of variables depending on end conditions, etc. That's why tall buildings and bridges are designed to flex more than they might if a stiffer structure was designed - the operating stresses in a less stiff structure under bending loads will be lower, generally. It's hard to make general statements like that without a bunch of caveats - it depends on the details of the load conditions and details of the fixity, etc.

Jmortensen - thanks for the link and keeping me straight - I appreciate it. But I don't believe most of what I read on the Internet and I'm not convinced that the structural analysis is really valid. As Johnc said, the lateral links take the lion's share of the lateral loads from the tires. The strut towers take the vertical reactions, and since they are angled in, they should tend to flex towards each other. The FACT that I'll always stand behind is that a straight bar is much STIFFER (I didn't say anything about strength - that should always be designed to be adequate) than a curved bar with the same cross-sectional qualities. And the stiffness is linear while everything is in the elastic region of the material. That means that if I push on the bar with force F, the straight bar will compress by an amount X. For twice as much force (2*F), it will deflect by 2*X, twice as much. It matters not what the loads are - the equation shows the relationship. For the curved bar, it will be more than X for a force F, the amount more will depend on the curve, end conditions, etc. The actual loads aren't needed if the material isn't stressed past it's elastic limit. But as Drax showed, that elastic limit will come about at a lower end compressive load with the curved bar - because of the eccentricity. That's another reason it's not a good solution for a strut bar, if the point is to keep the towers from moving away from or towards each other. However, I doubt the curved bar Jersey has will actually fail (that's related to strength, not stiffness). That I agree with. But strength isn't what I was discussing. Personally, I'd be more concerned with the thin section near the strut towers, since they will see flexure and are thin in the direction of the flexure. I can state the above FACTS without knowing the actual loads - that's the beauty of algebraic equations.

As long as someone thinks that Newtonian physics applied to something that is travelling no where near the speed of light is opinion, I'll stand my ground. Equations based on Newtonian physics, geometry, etc. describe the bending, compression, buckling of straight and curved bars are things that were figured out 100s of years ago. To say that you have an opinion about how they will react in you situation won't make a difference, without understanding the simple relationships and equations that dictate their reaction being linear as to the applied loads is where this discussion has gone wrong. Maybe you think the loads you'll apply to the curved bar are low enough that it won't matter. That's your opinion. Why not listen to someone educated in the field and let them tell you it might? Why hold onto an opinion that is not based on anything but your gut feel? That's your position, fine. But don't call my position opinion. It's based on fact. I stand by my original assessment. The chromed curved bar used where a straight shot is available is just a snazzy camera mount. Sure, it doesn't weigh much and the camera might not care if it's moving up and down a little bit as the suspension loads flex the bar. The application is fine. All I was trying to do is point out to others that might read this thread that looking for a solution to DIY strut bars consider the compromise being made. Then my factual post was called an opinion and my use of my credentials were thrown back at me. Again, I'm posting from a position of fact based on physics. It is not an opinion. I won't back down when facts are being questioned or called opinions. Some might think that's "dragging it out". As long as factual posts are being called opinion because it doesn't match the uneducated guess and opinion of someone else, especially here on HybridZ, I will run the discussion for as long as needed. The non-factual based opinion will not stand as the last word. The FACTS will. Pop - actually, I don't know if the curved bar will do anything appreciable to holding the towers apart. A curved bar, in almost any configuration that's using a 1"-ish diameter thin steel tube, with 3 or 4 inches of eccentricity to the load direction is going to be quite flexible. It may actually not do much at all towards holding the towers apart under hard cornering or a hard launch. Jersey, if you're friends are arguing with you based on what they say are factually based points of view, consider researching their "facts". You might learn something and find that you agree with your friends. Yeah, I'm now busting your chops. They need it. You continue to state that what I'm saying is opinion. It's FACT. As long as you do that, I'll run this thread on for as many pages as needed.

Kids!!!!

Are 1000 Iraqi's killed by Saddam's regime per month for decades not reason enough? On human rights horrors alone, the UN should have moved on Saddam's regime much sooner. Isn't that what the UN is supposed to be about? Want to wait around for Saddam to actually develop (or more likely buy) WMDs and ICBMs to deliver them to us with? We killed Iraqi's huh? Damned right. Terrorist Iraqi's, Saddam's torturous regime Iraqi's. Crazed idiots that listen to murderous clerics to kill all invading Americans, when we are there to HELP Iraq, not as invaders. Politics again, and used to send young men off to meet their death at the hands of Americans who are really there to help. Is this a problem? Sure we killed Iraqi's. And 1000 dead US soldiers is a small price to pay. Yes, I feel sorry for them and their families. But they knew what they faced when they JOINED the armed forces or stayed in the reserves. SHAME on the dead soldier's families for disgracing their memory by saying the war is wrong, that we shouldn't be there, that somehow their son or daughter's life is worth more than the Iraqi's that have been freed by the coalition. If Bush had to lie to the wussy UN and the weak-stomached American people and over-sell WMDs, when the actual reason was just as worthy, but somehow not as palettable to the UN and the weak-stomached US populace, I have little problem with it. IF that were the case. I've seen enough games played with US intelligence to know that the games are necessary. Lying to the UN is easily forgivable by me. They deserved no real respect anyway. But I'm saying that that it would be forgivable - if the WMDs were a lie. YOU will never know. Most people won't. And that's the way it HAS to be. The US, or any organization, must protect it's intelligence gathering methods and sources. And sometimes that means twisting the truth to do so. Maybe, just maybe, the US DID show the UN real proof that we had every reason to believe there were WMDs. The public will know that only in several decades when it is all declassified. Lying to the US pulbic on TV only to save your marriage, and your shot at a second term in the presidency - that's unforgivable to me. Cutting the CIA budget to the bone - so that we had no chance of infiltrating Islamic extremist groups or gathering other terrorism information. That's unforgivable as well. My belief is that Kerry will go even farther to mess the terrorist thing up. Especially since he doesn't even acknowledge it's a war on terrorism. I also believe that there will be terrorist attempts just prior to the November elections. I hope all are foiled. But the reason for the attacks are so strong and proven (thanks to the IDIOTS at the polls in Spain), that I believe they are inevitable. Al Qaieda knows that the terrorist tactics worked in Spain, and they read the media and probably believe that the weak-stomached US populace will vote Bush out if they believe Kerry will be their lap dog if they are successful. I'm with Mike - close the borders to all but a select few foreigners with very well checked out paperwork, and to very well documented US citizens. That might help. But the sleepers are what we need to be worried about.

O.K., I'm a knuckle-dragging caveman with an IQ in the single digits. I'm more believable now, for sure! No, I'm a navy engineering tech, and all those engineers don't know their slide rule from a yard stick. Yeah, that's it! Tom, I worked in the civilian Navy (NSWCCD, Bethesda, MD) for 11 years, I know what you mean about engineers without a clue, as far as what real world loads are, etc. I worked with a few too. There are some really book-smart engineers out there that I wouldn't trust near anything I was building. You see, I could give you as many examples of navy engineering techs without a clue as engineers - and some that effectively had engineering credentials due to their brain power and experience. My dad was like that too - an electrical engineering tech who had to teach the new engineers the ropes in practical radar design (JHU Applied Physics Lab - Radar Engineering). I was lucky. My dad's experience taught me that engineering techs were to learn from, not to be looked down on or to teach. But I realize that to an engineering tech, an engineer splashing you with degree credentials means they might be insecure. That's a prejudice I've seen from navy engineering techs, without telling them my degrees. It's a cultural thing. I've seen the initial doubt of an unknown engineer by navy engineering techs first hand and second hand with new engineers hired after me. It's good for the smart-ass engineer right out of school that talks down to the engineering tech who knows much more than they do about a test setup, etc. I've seen a few of these cock-strong young bucks get knocked down a few pegs - to their betterment, once they managed to lick their wounds. I was just trying to explain to Jersey that a curved bar is a inferior design for this application, and that if he wanted to disagree with me 100% about it, I was going to do the same, since I want HybridZ to remain a resource for correct technical information. It wasn't personal. Funny thing is, I got more respect from the engineering techs there when they saw the work I did building my V8Z. Pete - MSME - so I must not have a clue!!!!

Jersey, I'm not pi$$ed at all. It's just that when I see what I believe to be incorrect information (that a curved or straight bar will have the same effect in this application), I will respond. Part of the point of HybridZ.org is to have correct factual information in it's threads. If I were to not challenge a post I thought was technically incorrect, I'd be doing others that search on this topic or are reading the responses to it a disservice. Others should do the same when they see something they know to be incorrect. I will disagree that this is a matter of opinion. Either the curved and straight bars have the same effect, or they don't. That's a matter of fact, not opinion. Mikelly has posted many times that this place is about no-bs tech info. After I return from vacation, I will pull out the books and apply the engineering theory to give equation and some examples of force vs deflection, etc. for the curved vs straight bar issue. I don't believe an instrumented test is really in order, but I suppose I could make up a curved bar to replace my straight one, and instrument the straight and curved bars, set up some datalogging and go for some spirited rides. MD has taken a OLD, BAD clue from New Jersey and installed a bunch of traffic circles. NJ desided to get away from them, but the geniouses in the MD SHA think they are the best way to deal with intersections. These really are fun when no one is around (but I hate to seem them in high volume areas). Almost like having skid pads put in by the state . But for me, the theory alone will answer the question. I don't have time to instrument this test, but I'd love to see someone do it. Don't worry, I'm not mad, and I'm not worried about my credentials being taken away. It's just that I don't want people to think that a curved bar is the way to go to make an effective strut tower brace. BTW, Drax's test proves one thing to me. That you need the X brace to be effective. The towers move. If you push one with the other (using a rigid bar), then the bar will move (mostly side to side). Tieing the strut tops to the base of the opposite tower with an X brace would do away with some of that tower-top flexure. But since the Z is made up of thin metal it might not help much unless you spread the load quite a bit top and bottom.

The amount of force applied to either bar will be different, since they will have very different stiffnesses. The less stiff the bar, the less force will be seen at the joints, the lower the compressive stress, and the more the ends of the bar will be allowed to move towards each other. If the point of the bar is to keep the towers from moving towards each other in response to suspension loads, it makes a very real difference in the force applied, and most importantly, to the amount of rigidity (or compliance) of those strut towers. Those are the facts. I threw my credentials out to point out that I know what I'm talking about on this topic. Many years of engineering school, a masters' thesis, and years of experience on the job doing structural engineering DOES make me a bit more qualified that an network administrator on this topic. But if you don't want to believe me, that's fine too. A snazzy chrome bar may be all you were looking for. I just wanted to point out to the readers of this forum that a curved bar is a BIG compromise is stiffness and rigidity (the reason most people put the bar there), one that needn't be made, since it's a straight shot between the towers. Unlike the situation with the L6 valve cover between the front towers, unless tall mounts are used at the towers, which also isn't the best design either.

It's a simple fact that a curved bar will bend and allow the ends to move towards each other much more than a straight bar that just compresses. I don't have the books in front of me at the moment. But the curved beam in compression is going to allow the towers to move together probably an order of magnitude or three more than a straight bar in compression. Sure, the car doesn't collapse from the loads but it flexes and the towers move towards each other. The point of the bar is to limit that movement with a stiff bar between them. The curved bar is much less useful for this. Pete Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering, solid mechanics

Mike, I only hope I can have your wisdom when my kids get to that age. Letting him make his own mistakes, not rubbing his face in it, being quite about what YOU think is a better machine... all great tactics! At his age the only way he'll learn is through his mistakes, and maybe those of his buds. Your words usually only infuriate. Being supportive but quiet is a great tactic. I learned that from how my dad treated me. I still can't believe that hottie girlfriend of his is only 15. I though she was 18! They didn't build them like that when I was his age!!! You ought to find his secret for attracting those hotties and sell it to teenage boys. You could retire in a year!

Even though I could not actually put that prose together, I can certainly relate to it. Luckily my dad was in his 40s when he got married and had kids (he's 86 this year) and I "missed" the baby boomer thing. I'm a "gapper", born months before JFK was shot (Kennedy, not his more liberal bud Kerry). Just my view, but the real devils of this war are not just the Taliban, Bin Laden, Saddam or the clerics that tell their followers to kill all Americans. The vastly liberal media that seems to have no bounds as to what they will print or say figure in as well. All you hear is the dirty laundry about Iraq and Afghanistan. Never what the US and it's allies are doing FOR those places. Just that a very small majority of the inhabitants hate us and want to kill us. Never mind the freedoms these people now have. I often wonder what this world would be like without organized religion. If everyone just believed in a being that thought we should be good to each other, but there was no organization or spokesmen, I have the feeling that there would be less war, violence and chaos. I don't mean to offend people who belong to an organized religion. I suppose being brought up in a strict Catholic home impressed upon me good morals and ethics, while showing me hypocracy and corruption in the church. Stupid teenagers, whether they have bombs or not, are the culprits. And we were all teenagers once. As the article stated, if the teenagers grew up and actually used the gray matter they had upstairs to THINK about what they did and said, we'd be alot better off. The people I really disrespect are those that refuse to think - but will quickly move to an emotional reaction. Sounds like a teenager, huh? Or a grown-up that's mentally lazy and irrational. I must be getting more cynical in my old age, but it seems fewer people are using their brains in any real way. The world seems so superficial to me. PC has taken over. Maybe it's the caffeine. Just my opinions. Nothing I'm forcing on anyone. We could all be just holograms anyway.

75 hour work weeks have killed my memory, but I can say that I first corresponded with Terry quite a while ago. He sent me pics of the Blue Beast and I scanned them in for him. Terry is one of those very bright and talented but humble folks that is a pleasure to correspond with. He has more creativity in his little toe nail than I'll ever hope to have. Terry's car will always be my favorite. The old design was just awesome, and the new one I can't wait to see in BLUE!

I hate to interrupt this thread with any tech talk (just kidding!), but a curved bar is much less stiff in compression (think of the towers moving towards each other) than a straight one. Looks nice and shiny, but not doing near as good a job as as simple straight bar between the strut tops. An X would be better too. Mike, what Bike insurance - I thought you were selling that widow-maker?

Terry, Someone on Chevytalk.org has this as their longtime signature: "If you didn't build it, it's not yours." At this May's "Ocean City Cruise-in" (OC, MD) a "cleckbook car won the mayor's trophy (top honors). The car's owner paid to have the entire car designed and built (40 ford) in 11 months. If you ask me, the BUILDER won the trophy, not the check-writer. The old rodders I hang with at the Burtonsville MD Sunday morning cruise-in at the old shopping center (rts 29 and 198) call those "checkbook cars".

Mike, Dale, very sorry to hear of these recent losses. Things seem a certain way right now, and you may feel you don't want or need a counselor, but think about it until you decide that it can't hurt. Guys have a hard time thinking that they can't straighten out their own problems alone. But let a couselor help you down the road to feeling better. I speak from experience. For weeks into a very stressful event, I kept saying I didn't need a counselor. Big tough guy, and all that BS. Well, within 4 or 5 sessions with a good one, I was feeling better. A year later, I learned alot about myself and others and how to deal with things better and I feel better than ever. Think of a counselor as just another tool in the toolbox to making yourself more happy.