ModernS30 Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Oh I don't expect it to get any easier, sometimes you just need to rant and complain and let it out ya know? I also agree that college is not for everyone, but I am doing all I can to make it through, I sure as hell am not running away freshman year because I feel like the system is broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nsm0l3m4n Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 High book prices and tuition cost are nothing new. If you want to go through college, especially majoring in a technical field, youre going to be paying a LOT of money. You might save a bit here and there but you cant escape it completely. If you want to save a bit of money look into buying outdated editions of the required textbook. The only differences are usually pictures and homework problems. The homework problems you can get from a friend who got suckered into buying the correct edition, or by checking out the book (usually for free) from the library. The stuff they will teach you the first 3 years (at least) will be stuff that hasnt changed in 100 years. An older book will have the same content without the associated cost. Online homework sucks, but it is what it is. Most professors arent stupid or lazy, they are busy. They have research to do, grad students to assist, research papers and grants to write or review, lectures to prepare for, all while fighting the university bureaucracy to get what they need done. Babysitting students isn't their job so if you're having issues come in for office hours, show your work, ask questions (REAL questions, not like "how do you do #3"), be persistent. If youre having stupid technical issues (such as "X" being mistaken for "x") complain to the professor or TA, if youre honestly in the right they will usually eventually see it your way. Generally though, in lecture classes, homework isnt worth much of your grade. I did well in several classes by acing the midterm and final, while my homework and other scores were very poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon 74 260Z Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Most professors arent stupid or lazy, they are busy. I disagree. The percentage of my former professors that I would ever consider hiring is much less than epsilon. And the number of papers that they've published or "co-authored" that have had any usefulness in industry is miniscule. I once waited 20 minutes during office hours to ask the kind of questions you described and I had to listen to him argue with a colleague as to who was going to buy drinks at their upcoming conference. At the end of this enlightening conversation, I was informed that office hours were over... Yep, I found profs to be very hard-working and "busy." What I took away from the experience is that if I needed to learn something, I was on my own to find the resources to learn it. It was actually a valuable lesson that has served me well in my career, though it made my academic experience as enjoyable as a no-novocain root canal from a German dentist. I also looked at my profs and said to myself, "Self, why is this guy here? He's got a PhD in an 'in-demand' field -- why isn't he making wheelbarrows full of cash in industry???" Once ModernS30 figures out the answer to that question, I think he will be encouraged to continue plodding on and get his engineering degree. And he'll develop a lil' smirk when he has to deal with his profs and their educational bureaucracy... h4____4n has got a good point about buying outdated textbooks and copying the relevant homework sections. I think he exaggerated the part about 100 years though -- the "basics" haven't changed in only 50 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "The percentage of my former professors that I would ever consider hiring is much less than epsilon. " BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! "What I took away from the experience is that if I needed to learn something, I was on my own to find the resources to learn it." We all share your pain, and it is the root of the "SEARCH NOOB" flamepost! "Self, why is this guy here? He's got a PhD in an 'in-demand' field -- why isn't he making wheelbarrows full of cash in industry?" BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Do you recall "Ghostbusters": "Venkman, you haven't worked in the Private Sector, I have! Those people want results!!!" That kinda sums it up, but I kinda think you figured that one out on your own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 I disagree. The percentage of my former professors that I would ever consider hiring is much less than epsilon. And the number of papers that they've published or "co-authored" that have had any usefulness in industry is miniscule. I once waited 20 minutes during office hours to ask the kind of questions you described and I had to listen to him argue with a colleague as to who was going to buy drinks at their upcoming conference. At the end of this enlightening conversation, I was informed that office hours were over... Yep, I found profs to be very hard-working and "busy." What I took away from the experience is that if I needed to learn something, I was on my own to find the resources to learn it. It was actually a valuable lesson that has served me well in my career, though it made my academic experience as enjoyable as a no-novocain root canal from a German dentist. I also looked at my profs and said to myself, "Self, why is this guy here? He's got a PhD in an 'in-demand' field -- why isn't he making wheelbarrows full of cash in industry???" Once ModernS30 figures out the answer to that question, I think he will be encouraged to continue plodding on and get his engineering degree. And he'll develop a lil' smirk when he has to deal with his profs and their educational bureaucracy... h4____4n has got a good point about buying outdated textbooks and copying the relevant homework sections. I think he exaggerated the part about 100 years though -- the "basics" haven't changed in only 50 years or so. I certainly am quickly learning that learning is up to me and lectures don't give me much but an attendance grade an an opportunity to ask questions and get to know the professor. I am working on being that suck up student that befriends the professors. "Self, why is this guy here? This guy is here because he failed in the industry and could not manage to get the dream job he wanted so he settled for teaching us is one answer. Another answer could be, this guy did the industry gig and was tired of actually doing work so he got more lazy. I completely disagree with the intro classes. I am already dealing with nanotechnology and newer concepts in some of my introduction level classes. Although the introduction classes do follow the general basics on engineering, they are incorporating the newer ideas into the introduction classes with the basic principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianZortiz Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I think the best choice I made to save money was to go to the closest community college. I will be leaving to a university in Utah in the Fall. I also just spent a lot of time at the library so I won't spend great amount's of money for a new version book just because it has a new front cover. I would do homework and study, it is probably one of the best places to get school work done. I've had good and bad professor's but I think that the new teachers are motivated but lack teaching experience and the experienced mostly lack motivation to teach. Also, these days a lot of professor's complain about their pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Agree with theCC route. That us hoe my son is progressing. I figure he's going to change majors at least once and that it a LOT cheaper in CC than full-inn colleges. My sin had a lot of interaction with the UCR Engineering Student Teachers, and was always at their lab. So he's going to RCC which is a fully compatible and transferrable institution to finish his last two years at UCR. Though several members of the local Z Car Club (as well as dad) kinda are leaving him Cal Poly Pomona Propaganda...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon 74 260Z Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) My sin had a lot of interaction with the UCR Engineering Student Teachers It's only January but TonyD gets my nomination for Funniest Typo of the Year. But whining profs and teachers who claim to be "underpaid" get absolutely NO sympathy from me!! Boo-hoo -- I've spent about a quarter century with "at will employment" so don't ask for more of my taxable income to pad your gravy-train tenured position. (Oops. I may have given a hint to ModernS30 about the correct answer to the why-they-are-here question.) Speaking to Modern, do NOT skip the basics!! I'm a EE so I don't know if you will fully understand this if you aren't BUT... I once terminated the interview of a UC-Berkely ME with an impressive thesis because he couldn't draw the I-V curve for a simple diode. Most of the "teaching" I've done to new-hires is the basics... and it drives me nuts to do so! Edited January 20, 2012 by Jon 74 260Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psdenno Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Speaking for the college experiences of an older generation, my tuition was $106 per semester and that included books. Books were checked out and returned, just like in high school. College was a 15 minute walk from my parent's house. Yes, it was possible to get a four year degree for less than $1,000 total cost. My son, however, is a computer science and engineering student at USC in Los Angeles. His campus health plan coverage costs more than my annual tuition did. After living in the dorms for a year, he moved off campus this year and shares a house with seven others. He has his own bedroom and bathroom - all for the tidy sum of $750 a month plus a share of the utilities, 12 months a year. Each month, his room and board costs more than it cost to get my BS degree. Trust me, at some point, you will look back at this time of your life as "the good old days". Hang in there! Dennis Edited January 20, 2012 by psdenno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 One of the reasons I moved to SoCal was I'd read the published school pricing, and CA was unreal compared to the Eastern Establishment Schools. I remember students protesting in the early 90's here in CA that the price for a years tuition and fees had risen to the level of a single SEMESTER of my school back east, 10 years prior! I've terminated interviews with prospective hires with the simple question: "What can you DO?" usually followed or precipitated by a stated salary requirement that I could pay to poach a competitor's functioning personnel rather than have an overvalued glorified trainee... I remember a guy who worked in the Service Department at a Major Multinational Compressor Company, we were idly chatting while he rebuilt a little 5hp garage compressor. I asked what degree he held, expecting to find another BSME, but got "Masters in International Finance and Banking" More than a little shocked I said "bit out of your specialty, isn't it, overhauling compressors?" he said with a resigned serenity: "Oh yes, I have all my Theory now-but now I must obtain practical knowledge. Perhaps in 5 or so years I can work with you on XX-Line units! Or, perhaps if an opening presents itself in Finance with the company, I can apply there." How many guys in the USA or anywhere do you know someone with a Masters Degree willing to take entry level dirty-hands work to bide their time hoping for an opening within their specialty in a large Multinational? He was likely paid in the area of 600 monthly... I often wonder how he fared, they closed that branch soon thereafter... Like large multinationals tend to do. Don't get hung on self value, always be ready to answer that simple question: WHAT CAN YOU DO? Hesitation in interview puts you towards the bottom of the stack, if not to the top of the circular file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Here's a little dose of reality to all of you professor-hating kids out there: 1. Ever wonder why so many of your engineering professors are foreign-born and speak with funny accents? It's because native-born U.S. citizens are either too lazy/stupid to get a Ph.D. in engineering, or because having obtained one, they DO find greener pastures in industry. Now imagine that you are a foreign-national graduate student getting his Ph.D. in the US. How can you stay in the US after graduation? H1-B? Good luck! You can marry an American girl (again, good luck!) or get a professorship. 2. So why does your freshman-calculus professor ignore you? Because (1) he's probably a graduate student or post-doc and not even a professor, and (2) his performance evaluation has very, very little to do with how well he teaches freshman. Plus, most freshmen are obnoxious louts anyway, so why bother paying attention to them? But in all fairness to professors: yes, they waste a good 2-3 hours daily in stupid faculty meetings, chatting with colleagues on the phone, or just piddling away in their offices. But you know, besides giving lecture and preparing lecture notes, there are another 9-10 hours in their workday (typically 6 days a week) devoted to writing proposals, reviewing papers, advising graduate students, dealing with government program managers and otherwise whoring for funding. 3. Subtracting polynomials counts as engineering mathematics these days??? 4. An engineering education is mostly self-education. The professor's role is to apprise you of the requirements. It's your own responsibility to meet them. 5. There are dorks and cretins in every field, including professorship. It is quite surprising how many fools manage to graduate with a Ph.D. 6. Salary in most technical fields tops out at around $150K. Beyond that's management, owning your own business, executing various deals, etc. - not really engineering anymore. You can get to that salary in private industry, in academia or in government. The point is that there's convergence at the top of the engineering salary scale. So it's rubbish to claim that professorship is the consolation-prize after failing in industry. 7. The older edition of the textbook is generally more rigorous and is better written. Wise professors encourage students to buy the older addition, and hand out the new homework problems by photocopied pages in class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi303 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Muahahahaha! 250 days outside the USA in Asia this past year... If you're in ChongQing, P.R.China, sometime, let me know and we can hoist a few beers. Those Womens Studies and Humanities actually qualify them to teach english to Chinese if they have the gumption to fly all the way over here and do something more than flip burgers. As far as my job here goes tho I'm safe, they'd rather sit on their asses moaning about how miserly the unembloyment benefit is, or flip burgers for peanuts, just because it's "HOME" than fly around the world and experience different cultures. No sense of adventure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I'm a senior at RIT in ME, it only gets harder, much harder. I went to a CC for the first 2 years, the clas size that finished was about 1/4 that of starting. You'd do well to talk to upperclassmen about which professors to take and which to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 It probably depends. I was discouraged by all the freshman and sophomore level classes, but hung through them after a bit of difficulty. All my senior level classes and technical electives were a blast. I even enjoyed Cal III. At my school they really just wanted to weed out people to try and increase their graduation rates of students who are actually in their respective programs. But the electives and upper level classes, that's reason I signed up for Computer Science in the first place. Problem is they won't let me attach flamethrowers, pistols, or even just a few dull knives to the autonomous robots here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon 74 260Z Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Here's a little dose of reality to all of you professor-hating kids out there: Errrrr........, did I just get called a "kid"??!? I don't know if I should be offended or to make sure I have ID with me the next time I want to buy a six-pack from Apoo. Re: H1-B visas, if you need "good luck" to get them, why is it that I've seen my employers pay for dozens upon dozens of them and not a single one as ever been refused? Answer: Because we pick people who show some potential of being able to justify their salary. If you're worthless, then yeah, you are going to need a mighty butt-load of "luck" to get one. Professors, on the whole, tend to fall into the worthless category. Re: the number of hours a professor works, we are going to have to agree to disagree about whether or not they actually work Saturdays. Regardless, I think you need to include their paid time off. For crying out loud, even euro-companies don't offer the amount of vacation that professors get! I agree with points 3-5 and 7 but one thing about #6 needs to be said: Most engineers I know who have more than 5 years experience do NOT work for salary. We work for stock options... And I don't know any former-engineers-turned-professors -- most professors I had and currently know are solely the product of academia. Pretty sad, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Freshmen Louts, Cretins... BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Reading that one made my day. Very valid points, especially on some aspects of salary not being tied to strict engineering skills. Got a contemporaneous Young Turk in his early 30's hot to get more money, and therefore aggressively pursuing his MBA as the path to riches. Astoundingly good young field engineer. GREAT hands-on guy with a mind like a sponge when it comes to learning from others. And also the kind of guy who starts gnawing on his cubicle Walls after about a month "inside" the home office. Spent three years as our China Engineering Liason. I sit back and smile as we all have our revelations in due course. I was EXTREMELY fortunate to toss "management" to the curb in my late 20's and concentrate in the field. I am not happy in the office. I figure thus young guy will get exactly what he wishes for... And will either become CEO or dump it to come to the field... "That's not the job you're looking for..Move Along!" (Obi Wan Voice there...) He will learn! LOL If he would just come to service group, he'd quickly realize his effective salary would double... But like Kiwi, he would have to endure "Hardship Postings" - which if nobody has read the books by Stuart Lloyd (Expat Misadventures in Asia) I'd highly recommend it. Just don't give it to the wankers Kiwi mentioned who were complaining about unemployment rates of pay and the burger flippers!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlah Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm a senior in Mechanical Engineering at the Colorado School of Mines. It's hard sure, but it amazes me how many people get through engineering school on the premise of only working hard. I have come across a large amount of really not very intelligent students here. Lots of students that don't know how to analyze anything or figure out how things work. Also, someone mentioned it earlier, something about algebra... CSM doesn't offer algebra. Calculus is where you are required to start. Also, I failed lots of classes. Why? Because I didn't know how to work hard my first 2 years. Technically I still don't, but I am smart enough to get As on exams so I don't do a lot of homework. Being that I am a senior, I have lots of projects. I love projects. Especially the one in my Internal Combustion Engines class, or the explosives research I am doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHO-Z Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 There is another way into engineering. I have a BS in Mech Engineering Technology from Metropolitain State College of Denver, did not have to take Calc 3 or differential equations and my physics was algebra based not calc based. It is not the degree for those who want a masters in engineering. It is set up for a design engineering position. I had a back injury as a pipefitter and had to find a new occupation. Now that I have a PE no one really cares what I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 There is another way into engineering. I have a BS in Mech Engineering Technology from Metropolitain State College of Denver, did not have to take Calc 3 or differential equations and my physics was algebra based not calc based. It is not the degree for those who want a masters in engineering. It is set up for a design engineering position. I had a back injury as a pipefitter and had to find a new occupation. Now that I have a PE no one really cares what I have. My understanding was that you were required to take Calc. based Physics to even take the PE test. Also, on the math level, believe me, I don't really find it that difficult, it is the online homework that I find really annoying. You are supposed to start Calculus but I didn't do well enough on the placement exam so I am where I am. Some interesting discussion has sparked from a rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Just whatever you do, don't use Speed/Drag horsepower equivalent equations to dispute someone's claims or refutation of claims as to stated horsepower. Apparently that causes a 'battle royale' and some can't draw a straight line of 'proof of horsepower claimed' to Speed/Drag Calculations and then the direct refutation that it's 'impossible' to make that much given the valve diameter and inlet port flow. But reaming a guy on grammar, hey, that's acceptable. My rant is now over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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