Hill climb set-up?

[heavy85]

So I'm planning for June hill climb in North Carolina - 'Chasing the Dragon' (it's near the tail of the dragon). My car is set-up for road coarse and I've never run a hill climb. Is there any set-up changes I should consider to make it more drivable at speed on a public mountain road? I realize practice and driver is the key factor but if there are any changes to make it easier to handle (i.e. safer and therefore more fun) I would like to be prepared and avoid frustration if I'm way off.

 

Basic info:

2675 lb race weight

Functional aero

364 whp / gear LSD

Hankook RS-3 tires

425 / 375 springs

1" (about to test 18 mm) front bar / no rear bar

1/8" front toe out

1/4" rear toe in

 

 

Thanks

Cameron

[BluDestiny]

Do you have any camber? or just the toe

[johnc]

You need to look at the hillclimb course. If its a typical hill climb (not Pike's Peak) its low to medium speed corners with huge penalties for making a mistake. You'll want a car that rotates more then a typical road race car but not something that rotates as well as a Solo2 car. Slight understeer (even with slight lift throttle) in medium speed corners and neutral with lift throttle oversteer in low speed corners. It must put power down well from low speed and be stable under power during medium speed corner exits.

[EMWHYR0HEN]

We're assuming slower speed turns so less roll. Therefore, increasing positive camber might be helpful. If you're comfortable how the car handles now I wouldn't make any drastic changes. Maybe play with ride height, and track width to get the car to rotate more.

 

Good luck.

[heavy85]

Yep you guys have it. All low / medium speed, flowing with no hairpins or really tight stuff, not much of straights to speak of. All asphault and they just repaved the rough spots. Guess average speed will be ~70ish mph which isnt slow. I think Im just going to leave well enough alone.

 

Cameron

[EMWHYR0HEN]

Good call. That's fast for a canyon rd. I would try to get familiar with the road like you would for a race track. Youtube, google maps, Thomas guide, pre- running, etc.

 

Just curious does it take long to get your tires up to temp?

[tube80z]

So I'm planning for June hill climb in North Carolina - 'Chasing the Dragon' (it's near the tail of the dragon). My car is set-up for road coarse and I've never run a hill climb. Is there any set-up changes I should consider to make it more drivable at speed on a public mountain road? I realize practice and driver is the key factor but if there are any changes to make it easier to handle (i.e. safer and therefore more fun) I would like to be prepared and avoid frustration if I'm way off.

 

Basic info:

2675 lb race weight

Functional aero

364 whp / gear LSD

Hankook RS-3 tires

425 / 375 springs

1" (about to test 18 mm) front bar / no rear bar

1/8" front toe out

1/4" rear toe in

 

I've done a number of hillclimbs in the Northwest. Assuming the roads are similar your setup sounds reasonable. One thing to make sure is that your alignment doesn't make the car follow ruts/lines and that road camber changes in the road aren't a major issue. In general you won't be using your brakes as hard as you might on a track/autox course for most hills. For us a lot of corners have apex speeds in the 45 to 60 range and only a few in the 75 to 80 range, which is usually major pucker when a tree or rock is very close to you. I lost a door mirror on a rock wall at Bogus Basin (Boise ID).

 

At hills you'll probably see more suspension travel than anywhere you race. So make sure you don't hit bumpstops or that could make the car very nervous. My only other advice would be to drive the hill as you see it at about the 95% level. As you learn it you can know what areas you can really keep the throttle down. But be careful you don't try and gain too much time each run. Keep each run close and inch up. I've seen too many people do a few slow runs and then really go for it only to crash. Generally it takes 2 to 3 years before you know the hill well enough to start chasing records, at least for an amateur like myself. And then mother nature often has her say.

 

Hillclimbs are probably the most fun thing I have done in a car. You may go faster on a track but the feel from a hill is something else. And when you're done and talking very quickly or foot won't stay still you'll know it was a good run.

 

Cary

[tube80z]

Just curious does it take long to get your tires up to temp?

 

On most hills it takes a third of the way for them to really start working. One trick for any street legal car is to drive around at legal speeds but use a lot of brake gas to build heat into the tires/brakes. As you sit in line that latent heat can make a huge difference.

 

If you have a hill where you all drive to start make sure you do real work to get heat into the tires. Often that can make a second or two up in the bottom third of many hills.

 

Driving at normal speeds on the course can help you at times. But many times the difference between legal and race speeds is so much that it seems completely different. Almost all hills have a required novice program where they often take all of you up the hill in a truck and talk about key areas (usually safety related) and show movies of the course. No matter how many times I've ran a hill I always go to these often taking crap for where I went off on what year and so and so. I'd look for vids on youtube and make sure to record your own. You can watch them at night to help memorize what it looks like at speed.

 

Just make sure the car still drives after the event. At some point we all have a moment when pushing really hard.

[heavy85]

Hillclimbs are probably the most fun thing I have done in a car. You may go faster on a track but the feel from a hill is something else. And when you're done and talking very quickly or foot won't stay still you'll know it was a good run.

 

That's why I'm willing to tow ~11 hrs to give it a try.

 

I'd look for vids on youtube and make sure to record your own. You can watch them at night to help memorize what it looks like at speed.

 

Just make sure the car still drives after the event. At some point we all have a moment when pushing really hard.

 

Getting close to having the course memorized from last year's videos. It's fast ....

 

I'm really trying to NOT set a laptime goal to make sure it comes home in one piece.

 

Cameron

Edited May 29, 2012 by heavy85

[heavy85]

http://www.ccrscca.com/results/ctd2_2012_raw.htm

 

Third overall and first in class. Was an awesome trip. Towing over the Dragon sucked but no issues other than smelly (hot) brakes on the van and grinding up the 12% at 15 mph foot to the floor in first. Beautiful country but remote with little to no cel coverage (disclaimer I have AT&T ....). The club is VERY focused on the workers and community involvement. There were spectators and shuttle busses, local 'sponsors' - I was the 'simple life campground' car which happened to be where we stayed. The road had really good grip but is a challenge since it all looks the same and is left right left right .... so it was hard to read and judge entry speed.

 

 

My best run. There is still many seconds to be had as I dont have the hill memorized yet despite hours of watching last years runs. I was however getting close to the steep part of the risk vs reward curve so much lower times will really have to push with little error. That's what next year is for I guess

 

I've been so focused on this event for the last several month I dont even have the rest of the season scheduled. Only problem is this makes other track events less meaningful. Time to find another event to add to then knock off the bucket list.

 

Here is one of the several photographers that were there.

 

http://www.photoreflect.com/store/th...aspx?e=8571076

 

Here's an in-car video that's a couple seconds slower but shows the course.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTR09...ature=youtu.be

 

 

Cameron

Edited July 2, 2012 by heavy85

[tube80z]

http://www.ccrscca.com/results/ctd2_2012_raw.htm

 

Third overall and first in class. Was an awesome trip.

 

That's awesome Cameron. Harold Knoebel is a multi-time national DMOD champion and you beat a host of other people in really fast cars.

 

From watching the video it looks like a couple of sections are pretty rough. It doesn't look like you're that far from being able to fight for King of the hill. Looks like a great venue and sounds very similar to what we have in the PNW with regards to event atmosphere.

 

Great job!

 

Cary

[JMortensen]

Didn't see your results, congratulations! Your videos aren't showing for some reason, would like to see them.

 

This you? I was thinking it might be when I first saw the picture, but you're not real close to the dragon.

 

http://www.facebook....&type=3

 

background here:

http://www.facebook....&type=3

Edited July 6, 2012 by JMortensen

[wcameron]

Congratulations on your finish. I'm hoping to run the Sept event and wondered what size tire/wheel combo you are running.I'm building a hybrid Z (old school 327SBC with carb).

 

this is my first post so I hope I'm doing this correctly. great forum.

 

wcameron

[RebekahsZ]

Go pro suction mount?

[heavy85]

That's awesome Cameron. Harold Knoebel is a multi-time national DMOD champion and you beat a host of other people in really fast cars.

 

Thanks - he's a character. 79 (?) years old driving the snot out of a HEAVILY modified Del Sol towed by an Accord with small front tires to get more favorable gear ratio for towing.

 

Didn't see your results, congratulations! Your videos aren't showing for some reason, would like to see them.

 

This you? I was thinking it might be when I first saw the picture, but you're not real close to the dragon.

 

http://www.facebook....&type=3

 

background here:

http://www.facebook....&type=3

 

Yep that be me. Towing over the 'Tail of the Dragon' sucked. Hot smelly brakes on the van, 12% grades, 315 turns in 11 miles on the side of a mountain with zero guardrails, bikes everywhere leaning over the center line. When I edit the post the videos show up so dont know what's up with them not showing. They are on my channel (LS240Z) on youtube if you can find them

 

Congratulations on your finish. I'm hoping to run the Sept event and wondered what size tire/wheel combo you are running.I'm building a hybrid Z (old school 327SBC with carb).

 

I recommend giving it a shot! I'm running the Rota 17x9 and 17x9.5 group buy rims backwards (9.5 on the front) with 255 Hankook RS3 tires.

 

Go pro suction mount?

 

Yep. I've been experimenting with location lately and it's cool to see the various views and I even found a reason to build harder rear bushings. The rear tires change toe a LOT under power with poly outer bushings and offset inner bushing. Made some UHMW outers and it launches much better now.

 

Cameron

[EMWHYR0HEN]

Congrats Cameron.

 

Where are the vids?!

[Sideways]

You need to look at the hillclimb course. If its a typical hill climb (not Pike's Peak) its low to medium speed corners with huge penalties for making a mistake. You'll want a car that rotates more then a typical road race car but not something that rotates as well as a Solo2 car. Slight understeer (even with slight lift throttle) in medium speed corners and neutral with lift throttle oversteer in low speed corners. It must put power down well from low speed and be stable under power during medium speed corner exits.

 

I know this is an old bump- And a VERY "loaded" question, so be warned theres some ignorance ahead

 

May I ask for a VERY "ballpark" starting point set up you can suggest for this? Camber, toe, caster, any rake, etc. Just something to "start with" that you feel might be "on the path" as a point to start from and go from there?

[peej410]

I just watched the video. I dont have much to offer on setup because my suspension is different but our cars are nearly identical in power/weight and setup. Congrats on the successful first hill climb. Do you have a full cage in your car?

[heavy85]

Rollbar only no cage.

 

Heres a thread on the progression and setup. My next planned move is wider front end and more caster plus more aero ..... after I finish the damn dogleg rust.

 

Cameron

[heavy85]

Back from the past.

 

So I've been to three of these now and am over 4 seconds faster than the discussion above.

 

http://www.dragonhillclimb.com/records/ (I'm fifth overall all time)

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8AulTJH7g <- 117.3 sec run

 

Now am starting the 6 month off season and planning for the next Dragon hill climb at the end of march. This surface is very abrasive yet I'm struggling for forward traction. My rear tires wear fast and look like cheese gratered on what feels like .1 grit sandpaper asphault. I'm also spinning the tires all the way through third gear at the launch and elsewhere. Do not have nearly as much problem on other tracks. So question is how to maximize forward traction without other unmanagable compromises? As discusses in another thread Im making heim joint rear control arms to help stiffen the rear and reduce friction but what else should I be doing to be better out of the hole? Overall the car turns in well, generally puts down power OK outside of here with these tires, but tends to chase the rear mid corner. I'm confortable where it's at but always looking to go faster.

 

Second question is I run used Hoosiers. Last year I ran 275 R15 R6 since I couldnt find any A6's used. I'm still not able to find A6's for next year in that size to fit my 15x10 rims. Other potential option is 245 R17 R6 to fit my street tire 17x9 rims which John Berget has available. So 275/15 R6 or 245/17 A6 if thats the only options available?

 

Last general question, for a bumpy humpy track like a hill where you are going back and forth across the crown and dealing with old asphault is a big spring / little bar or a soft spring / big bar setup better and why?

 

Cameron