steering column "play"

[vtdds71]

After sorting and replacing all other parts of the front suspension and steering on my '72 Z, I can still feel a slight amount of left-to-right "play" in the steering wheel before any action happens down at the steering gear. It's annoying while driving with the wheel "on center", as it is felt whenever slight steering corrections are made while going straight ahead. The U-joints seem tight, and when I brace the first U-joint down from the steering wheel (i.e. eliminate any movement caused by a possible worn joint), I can still feel the slight rocking motion at the steering wheel. The wheel itself (both a stock wheel and an after-market wheel) is tightened to factory specs of about 45 ft/lb. I pulled the whole steering column out of the car and disassembled it, separating the upper and lower shafts where they are splined together inside the outer tube, and all was well-greased, etc. It now appears that the looseness is in the splined connection between the two halves of the steering shaft, and I see no way to tighten this. Is it normal to have a little play in this splined joint? Is it a sign of mechanical wear? Is there any way to "tighten" this connection internally with some type of bonding material that would withstand heavy steering forces? Would a new/rebuilt steering column exhibit the same sort of looseness? Any experiences/advice you may have would be appreciated.

[johnc]

The splines joint is part of the collapsible steering column and is a safety thing. You do not want to bond the splined section together. My guess, without hands on the wheel, is that the play you're feeling is normal for a 40 year old car. You can try another steering column to see if its in better shape.

[vtdds71]

I agree with your description of the functionality of the splined connection. It allows the lower shaft to telescope into the upper shaft during a frontal collision. So, you naturally want to preserve its ability to do that. I was wondering if there might be some type of adhesive material, similar to Loctite, that might tighten up the connection, but still allow the shafts to slide during a heavy longitudinal impact. I could buy the idea of worn parts except for the fact that this car has less than 30,000 miles on it, believe it or not. Seems odd that it would be necessary to replace the steering shaft after so few miles. Somehow I doubt a new steering shaft is available, but I haven't checked. Hate to think what that would cost! My guess is that this is a design issue, and that most older Z's like this probably have a similar amount of rotational play in the steering wheel, but I have no basis for comparison, as you rarely see another S30 up here in Vermont. If other owners of S30's would chime in with their own findings, I would really appreciate it.

[78zstyle]

I once replaced my steering rack bushings with urethane ones, a small amount of play will exist regardless of new components, thats just how it is.

[inline6]

I chased down play in my steering... I just couldn't stand it. In my case, the u-joints were the problem. I'm betting yours have never been replaced and are certainly part of the problem. In fact, I doubt it is at the splines because that is not an area where things are typically moving/sliding, unless the pinch bolt was loose for an extended period of time. The u-joints on the other hand are wear items. Here is a post I did about replacing them:

 

Replacing stock steering U-joints

 

Garrett

Edited August 29, 2012 by inline6

[inline6]

The U-joints seem tight, and when I brace the first U-joint down from the steering wheel (i.e. eliminate any movement caused by a possible worn joint), I can still feel the slight rocking motion at the steering wheel. The wheel itself (both a stock wheel and an after-market wheel) is tightened to factory specs of about 45 ft/lb. I pulled the whole steering column out of the car and disassembled it, separating the upper and lower shafts where they are splined together inside the outer tube, and all was well-greased, etc. It now appears that the looseness is in the splined connection between the two halves of the steering shaft, and I see no way to tighten this. Is it normal to have a little play in this splined joint? Is it a sign of mechanical wear? Is there any way to "tighten" this connection internally with some type of bonding material that would withstand heavy steering forces? Would a new/rebuilt steering column exhibit the same sort of looseness? Any experiences/advice you may have would be appreciated.

 

Ooops. I didn't read your full post before responding. 30k miles... and you seem to have eliminated U-joints as the problem. Interestingly, you mention that the problem is when the steering wheel is dead center. You should try rotating the wheel like one revolution in either direction off of dead center and checking to see if the same amount of looseness is there. If it is looser at dead center, then there is likely to be some wear in the rack itself. The rack does have some adjustment available to account for wear. Check the Factory Workshop Manual for info.

 

My car had a shimmy for a number of years that I couldn't track down and with the steering jumping back and forth at dead center, I ended up accelerating wear there... It ended up creating a spot at dead center that was "too loose" - both before and after I figured out the problem. The problem? "New-ish", after-market lower ball joints. They were obviously cheapies, but I overlooked them for a long time because they had been replaced "recently". I ended up buying new OEM ones, and another rack, unfortunately.

 

Again, with 30k, these issues seem kind of unlikely... If the wear is where you say it is, I don't know how to fix it. I will say that now that my car has a good rack, urethane rack bushings, new u-joints in the shafts, and a new urethane coupler, I have next to no play at all. I can see my wheels move with the slightest movement of the steering wheel.

[vtdds71]

Thanks for all the feedback. The motion I've detected in the steering wheel "play" is definitely at that splined joint, as I have completely disassembled the steering shaft, de-greased all the parts, slid the shafts together, and the looseness is apparent. It's as if the original machining of the splines was not precise enough, as the splines themselves do not appear to be rounded over or worn at all. That would lead me to think that "they all do that", and that I will just have to live with it. Unfortunately, given the design of this shaft, there is no "pinch bolt" to tighten, and even a recessed "set screw" would not be possible, as the spline joint is housed inside an outer jacket, and the length of the overall shaft would have to be set before re-installing the steering shaft in the car.

 

I did have a suggestion to try applying some J B Weld epoxy to the splines when reassembling, and allowing it to cure fully before driving the car. I've never used this stuff, but I wonder if it would be soft enough when mixed to fully penetrate the spline grooves, and then strong enough to withstand the torsional pressure of steering once fully cured. Any thoughts on trying this? Sounds like a "do or die" measure, as it would be a major hassle to remove this stuff in the future.

[Lazeum]

if everything is apart, maybe you could try to find the bet spline position, maybe some teeth are better match than others. you might end up with less shaft play.

Working in steering company, if the connection is loose, that something difficult to fix.

Regarding your idea of using JB weld, you will fix your steering avoiding it to retract in case of crash. That's the purpose of the connection. So it is trully a "do or die" solution but from a litteral stand point. (on the other hand, if you smash the steering wheel bad enough to retract the column, not sure you'll be alive to appreciate the feature )

 

I would then try different compound and see if that helps such as bathroom silicone or very thick grease. The stuff "just" needs to avoid being spread out with splines pressure.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Lazeum

[inline6]

Thanks for all the feedback. The motion I've detected in the steering wheel "play" is definitely at that splined joint...

 

 

I just went to my car and replicated what you did. I grabbed the first u-joint down from the steering wheel with my left hand and with my right hand, rotated the steering wheel one direction, then the other, and measured the free-play movement. I put a piece of tape on the steering wheel rim and used the edge as reference. It's exactly 1/8th of an inch of free-play allowed by those splines on my car. The steering wheel is a 13.8 inch diameter MoMo, so if yours is bigger or smaller diameter, take that into consideration.

 

I can easily feel when the joint in my left hand starts to move, so that measurement is accurate - it should be a good reference for you. And my shaft easily has over 200k miles on it.

 

It feels darn tight to me. I've got perhaps tad more than a quarter of an inch of play before the wheels visibly move. With the worn spot in the rack and the worn u-joints, it was easily over a half inch of play, and was very noticeable.

 

Garrett

[vtdds71]

For any who are interested, I did apply some "J B Weld" (metal type, not the "Kwik" type) to the splines of the steering shaft halves, after thorough cleaning of the splines with Marine Clean and acetone, and pre-testing a mix to determine its setting time. Turns out I had a good 20 minutes to work with the mixed resin before it began to stiffen. I quickly reassembled the whole steering column, and let it all cure for 24 hours without disturbing anything. I had previously reinstalled the whole steering column in the car so that I could accurately mark the exact shaft length that I wanted. I've now reinstalled the steering shaft, and have taken the car for a 40-mile shakedown drive. All is tight, the side-to-side wiggle in the steering wheel is gone, and the handling of the car seems much more secure now. Hope it all holds up over time.

 

My guess is that a little bit of side-to-side wobble is standard for the early Z steering column, and was just tolerated "in the day". This gluing/bonding procedure does give the steering a more precise and accurate feel, as the hand no longer senses the slack in the wheel when steering, especially when making small adjustments driving straight down the road.

[Pharaohabq]

Y, I'd be worried that the JB weld would do just that effectively welding the joint as to be dangerous in a crash, the joint won't release and this press the shaft and the wheel into the driver if the crash was severe. Probably not a good thing. What I would have done is taken the joint completely out, and had it pressed to tighten the metal all aound the splined shaft. That way in a crash it could still slip, but the joint would be a lot tighter, as the slack was taken up. I hope your JB weld solution will never be tested. another (albeit more ghetto) solution could be to wrap the joint in thick rubber and clamp it down with a pair of hoseclamps. The rubber should take up the lateral play, yet allow enough slippage in a wreck for the joint to collapse. just a thought...

[mtnickel]

My 260 exhibits this symptom as well. roughly 1/8" - 3/16" of play on mine. Instead of using my hand to lock the lower joint, I used vise grips and really locked that shaft in place to which i found out it was not the weak link (pun intended).

 

Not sure I want to go the JB weld route.

 

I was thinking about wrapping the splines with something that will take up the play. Something with good compressive abilities.

One thought was some fine steel wire down 3-4 splines on one side of the receiver to really force the splines over into the grooves on the opposite side.

Another idea would be teflon tape as it's fine enough to slide in yet I think by design is not meant to break down/compress too much (it is meant afterall as a seal on threads).

 

Also thought of using RTV. While it is a soft material, it is pretty tough stuff. Given the surface area it has to work with might hold up and at least take up a large portion of the slop. THe worry with that would be that over time it would break down and crumble out.

 

I'm going to try teflon tape first to see how that goes as it's easy to remove.

Will let you guys know what I try and how it works out.

[NewZed]

Why not just use a clamp in the same place as the Vise-Grips were?  You could probably find something small that looks like it belongs there and does the job.

[mtnickel]

Why not just use a clamp in the same place as the Vise-Grips were?  You could probably find something small that looks like it belongs there and does the job.

I guess i was vague on what the vise grip was doing. I used it to lock the steering shaft inside the engine bay just above the rubber coupler. I was trying to determine where the play was coming from. I had first thought it was the rubber coupler, then thought maybe my rack was worn, but after ruling both them out I locked the shaft post firewall and still had the same play. Then a little web searching led me here. I wonder if many users chalk this play up to that rubber joint or there rack when it might be a common issue for the spline joint. Can't wait to get it back on the road with a tight steering setup (once the RB goes in!).

[NewZed]

I jumped in to the middle of your thread so that's my mistake.  The splines are at the center of the leverage from the steering wheel and the steering gear so they see a lot of force.  Teflon tape or any of the softer plastics based solutions won't last long, they'll just get pressed out on tight or bumpy corners over time, as you noted. 

 

Seems like the safety concern is up and down the shaft and the problem is rotational.  If you could test the first while evaluating the second you might find a good compromise.  JB Weld with one set of splines lubricated might allow the sliding for safety but tighten up the joint for handling.  Clean one side and wax the other.  Test sliding action before re-installation.  Full disclosure: I don't even know if you can take the two pieces apart.  If not, the fine wire option seems reasonable.

[Tony D]

The sign of a good driver is he drives the car and doesn't pester the crew getting everything just perfect the way he wants it...

 

Gluing a collapsible shaft meant for chest impalement prevention? I'll pass on that mod. I can live without it. I'll drive the car!

[Lazeum]

The sign of a good driver is he drives the car and doesn't pester the crew getting everything just perfect the way he wants it...

Gluing a collapsible shaft meant for chest impalement prevention? I'll pass on that mod. I can live without it. I'll drive the car!

Tony, I'm with you regarding JB Weld solution but I cannot agree with your comment about not having a perfect car and good driver definition! I've driven many Z and almost all of them were not in ideal condition (weak, soft brakes, untuned engines, poor suspension, etc.  you name it), I complained about it. My car is so much more solid than this, it makes the whole driving experience much better.

 

A friend of mine has painted the splines on steering shaft with enamel paint. I has added a layer which has taken out the play while keeping the ability of the shaft to slide back in and to collapse in case of crash . His report was the play was gone. It has been 6 months and it still goes as expected. 

[Tony D]

My experience with drivers are the ones who are consistently fast, are fast no matter what. And they are fast in no matter what car they drive. Safety issues aside, a car in 'stock' form is generally more than 99.9% of the drivers out there can handle. And rather than admit the worst part of the equation is them (the driver) they concentrate on niggling little things that a better driver does not let bother him, and simply "drives around"...

 

A great example is my wallowing pig of a bone stock 260Z, with big stock steering wheel, stock sized tires, and all the warts of a 40 year old car. It's not an unsafe car, but it is a well maintained example of what a STOCK 260Z is...with obvious slack or play here and there from the years. Not excessive, but not 'new'....

 

This car will consistently turn top 5 times at the MSA AutoX Event, often grouping within a second or two of cars with $30,000 of prep work that do nothing but dedicated track work. (Same Driver...)

 

Is it different to drive? Yes, it slides and wallows, but doesn't do anything unpredictable. You have to DRIVE the car to get the most from it. And, curiously, those drivers who are the best, love driving the stock version and wringing it out at 10/10th because it reminds them of how well the stock package worked together!

 

We are not talking about weak or soft brakes here, we are talking about 'steering wheel play'.... 

 

IMO, this is one of those niggling little things a driver 'drives around' because it does not appreciably affect anything.

 

I have seen guys who swear the stock adjustment on the clutch was not to his liking, and INSISTED we put the engagement point where he wanted it. no 45 minutes into his turn (anchor) driving, the clutch started slipping. We put the adjustment back where it was supposed to be, and not where he 'preferred' it to be, and the car finished the race with no other driver on the team having an issue with the engagement point. They either drove around what was "stock", or the one guy was just fussy and blaming equipment for his own inadequacies.

 

More often than not, the worst part of the package is the nut behind the wheel. It is the component that can use the most improvement.

 

Not to say the OP is inadequate, but it is a 'personal preference' which I see as having no material effect on the way the car performs other than his preference as to tactile feedback...with a possible deadly downside in a collision. I don't see that play as a major contributor to much of anything. 

 

Then again, I could drive a 62 Microbus through the 1/4 mile traps at 89.899mph with a center pin so loose you could wiggle it up and down 25mm. I didn't have 1/8" play, I had 90-180 degrees of play in the steering wheel (depending on what you were doing) to keep it straight! I just drove around it. Maybe I'm not the best judge of steering wheel play and what is tolerable.... But I do find it hare to think that 3mm of play affects anything material in the way the car performs.

[clocker]

My experience with drivers are the ones who are consistently fast, are fast no matter what. And they are fast in no matter what car they drive. Safety issues aside, a car in 'stock' form is generally more than 99.9% of the drivers out there can handle. And rather than admit the worst part of the equation is them (the driver) they concentrate on niggling little things that a better driver does not let bother him, and simply "drives around"...

 

I can see your point IF we're talking about a driver grousing on the start grid...it's time to sack up and run what ya brung.

 

However, sitting the garage on Monday morning it's part of the driver's job and a BIG part of his mechanics/engineers job to improve any weaknesses that may hinder the driver.

 

Bully for you that you're comfortable driving a car with essentially no steering (90-180° of slop...really?) but I'd fire anyone who told me to just live with it and quit whining.

[Tony D]

"BIG part of his mechanics/engineers job to improve any weaknesses that may hinder the driver."

 

Fair Enough... is 3mm play enough to "hinder" a driver. As John C stated "that's what you get" -- Some things are not able to be fixed. 

 

This is a good example.... "Enamel Paint" or "JB Weld" on a crash structure? Sorry, not for me. As I said, if you would possibly rather hinder crash survivability, then it's your perogative. As a certified engineer, or automotive technican would I assume the liability of compromising the crash survivability of a customer's vehicle to make them happy?

 

No, I would gladly be 'fired' and let you possibly kill yourself, thankyouverymuch!