steering column "play"

[johnc]

On Monday the crew chief makes a list of things that need to be done to the race car and then prioritizes that list based on:

 

1. Safety.

2. Reliability.

3. Repeat ability.

4. Speed.

 

The list gets worked until the car gets loaded on the trailer Wednesday or Thursday. The list gets reprioritized after the first session the track to:

 

1. Speed.

[clocker]

"BIG part of his mechanics/engineers job to improve any weaknesses that may hinder the driver."

 

Fair Enough... is 3mm play enough to "hinder" a driver. As John C stated "that's what you get" -- Some things are not able to be fixed. 

 

This is a good example.... "Enamel Paint" or "JB Weld" on a crash structure? Sorry, not for me. As I said, if you would possibly rather hinder crash survivability, then it's your perogative. As a certified engineer, or automotive technican would I assume the liability of compromising the crash survivability of a customer's vehicle to make them happy?

 

No, I would gladly be 'fired' and let you possibly kill yourself, thankyouverymuch!

Note that I never discussed the "fix" as it was specifically applied (because NO, I don't consider JB weld or enamel paint a suitable fix), I was responding to your position that the problem was not worth addressing at all.

 

I am not familiar with enough Z's to know if "loose steering" is a common issue or if the OP just has a particularly worn example but either way, I don't see why attempting to rectify the problem would be a bad thing.

[Tony D]

If you don't know, perhaps its better not to jump into the conversation? Or perhaps read all the posts in the thread and then don't jump in and just sit back and learn some more?

 

Kind of a thought there... might be good advice. You completely took an answer out of context. I made it CLEAR the fix affects crash survivability or potentially affects it.

 

As I have said from the beginning, if an individual wants to kill themselves...have at it!

 

But denigrating or deriding a professional who does not want a potential million-dollar wrongful death liability on his head.... seems foolish. 

[clocker]

I thought I'd made it clear that I didn't consider the JBWeld an appropriate "fix" but that is hardly the only option available.

No one, certainly not myself, is advocating a potentially dangerous mod but really, changing the "feel" of the steering to accommodate a driver's preference does not have to result in death. 

I take issue with your attitude that because the play in the wheel doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anybody and if it does, they're just whining  to cover up their inadaquacies.

[NewZed]

Never mind, couldn't resist (I had something else here).  clocker, read some of Tony D's other posts before you get too carried away.

Edited December 9, 2013 by NewZed

[Lazeum]

We're on the same page.

I've got a very minor play and I can drive the car without thinking about it.

However, as a former steering engineer, I know it should not be there. A fix would improve steering feel around center point (straight line and corner entrance). Track speed and time should not change, this is not the point. I'm driving a street car, not a race car anyway.

 

Enamel point could be considered as long as both parts of the steering shaft can still slide along each other to keep the function of the collapsible steering column. My main question would be to know if the load vs. displacement curve of such modification versus nothing done to it would be negligible or not.

JB solution has nothing in common with enamel paint solution since it bonds everything together.

[Tony D]

"I take issue with your attitude that..."

 

And there it is... You do? Fine. Kill yourself. I never said not to do it. I said you can kill yourself, and as a professional I will not accept the liability for the death that may result from half-assed modification of a critical crash structure.

 

Know what I take issue with? Your obtuse mischaracterisation of contextual inferences. It's not just ME, I can think of at least THREE people on this thread that said 'live with it'....

 

Get off your butthurt throne.

[clocker]

My, that seems rather harsh.

 

I can only assume that English is your third language because you consistently fail to acknowledge that I HAVE AGREED WITH YOU twice now that I don't think the JB weld "fix" was acceptable.

What I don't get is why the only two choices are FIERY DEATH or "live with it".

 

It seems possible that the OPs steering shafts are abnormally worn and a simple replacement would solve the problem.

Should that not be the case (and who knows?), then I'd bet there are columns from some other car that could be fabbed in and solve the issue.

Since collapsible columns have been federally mandated for decades, a swap would NOT compromise crash safety, so don't even try to hang me on that.

 

I don't care (nor does the OP, I suspect) that you (and three others?) say to just ignore this issue.

If it bothers him, it's worth at least exploring options.

Apparently, exploring options does not fall under your "professional" capabilities, so I wonder why you continue to participate in this thread.

[tube80z]

Let's be a little more civil towards each other here.  I don't want to send you to your rooms but if you insist it can be done.

[Tony D]

" I was responding to your position that the problem was not worth addressing at all."

 

From the very same post, obviously ignored:

 

" As a certified engineer, or automotive technician would I assume the liability of compromising the crash survivability of a customer's vehicle to make them happy?"

 

The disconnect we have here, is the obvious difference between someone doing something on their own car, by themselves, at their own repair site, and someone in the automotive or engineering profession endorsing or otherwise modifying a structure involved in crash survivability.

 

In Europe, perhaps liability laws apply differently to tacit approvals and suggestions. In America, anybody can sue anybody else for anything. Including, I bet, advice given on an internet board.

 

Having been sued for spurious reasons (and "Winning" at the cost of over $10,000 in court costs alone which were returned, but not lawyers fees as a simple lie by the plantiff gets their lawsuit classified as a "good faith" filing, so no lawyers fees, 5X court costs...) you just don't give bad advice that will open that door again. I made a statement regarding liability which was not personal.

 

Others have gotten personal saying it's "my" stance, and why "my stance" is "wrong" even after I have explained it several times (quite simply and clearly I thought.) 

 

From the beginning, I said anybody can do anything they want to THEIR car, but I would not/could not/should not endorse it even in casual formats from the attached liability.

 

The advices all seem to revolve around things that 'gum up the mechanism' which is a red flag to me. As Lazeum says, there are shear considerations. Others will poo pooh the considerations and blithely carry on, maybe some lead-based lubricant like used on axles which is designed for sliding joints under high load, which will 'tighten up' the splines on such a lightly loaded component....yeah, maybe, on my personal car. But paint? JB Weld? Not on your life. Would I drive around it? Absolutely. Would I tell a customer to drive around it? Absolutely. The OP quantified it, it was not a vague query. 3mm (1/8") on his small diameter steering wheel. That's not excessive. The responsible stance was "You could try to replace it and see if you can get a better one." so there was no reason for me to repeat that simply to hear myself type. But the advice on JB Weld, and non-lubricant based items gave me enough pause to negatively endorse them, and state my reasons why. 

 

Am I gunshy about getting sued by some idiot because he did something and wanted to blame me, no matter how inane the connection or malicious reason? ABSOLUTELY!

 

Welcome to America. Where you can kill yourself and there are no repercussions, but if you nod your head and someone kills yourself, you are liable!

 

Remotest of possbility? Sure.

 

YOU spend $65,000 defending a B.S. Lawsuit and see if you don't strongly stick to liability avoidance and proper OEM recommended maintenance actions, and try to dissuade others from untested experiments where death or grave bodily injury are a possibility. Not "fiery death"---a steering wheel that doesn't collapse doesn't cause a firey death. It impales you through the chest. You linger a lot longer than fire. Doesn't hurt as much, but I still wouldn't make any recommendation that could be linked to it. 

 

Someone not having engineering liability, or professional hung onto his skillset he uses to earn his daily bread....can say just about anything they want. They could advise putting bolts through the column, or tack welding it since no actual sliding is needed during regular driving, only during a crash...and what are the chances of a crash?

 

But someone doing it for a living just can't say that.that. Regardless of how many people take issue with it, or try to mischaracterise it as a personal attitude to "ignore it"...

[clocker]

" I was responding to your position that the problem was not worth addressing at all."

 

From the very same post, obviously ignored:

 

" As a certified engineer, or automotive technician would I assume the liability of compromising the crash survivability of a customer's vehicle to make them happy?"

 

 

 

So, just to clarify...

Your position as a "certified technician/engineer" is that play in the steering shaft cannot be addressed without compromising crash protection?

[Lazeum]

As a steering engineer (for Delphi, now Nexteer), the way splines on column are done, the answer is no.

Any modification we could do will impact the behavior of the steering shaft and we have no ability to measure it and to certify that it would work. That's exactly what Tony just said.

Paint on splines was reported as a "good" fix for shaft play but there's no evidence of what could happen in case of crash...

 

For information, I've tried to replace the steering column on my car since it was having some play. Problem is I replaced it with another one with the same exact problem :/

Many S30 I've seen were having the same exact problem. Not sure if it is a factory problem or wear issue.

[clocker]

 

Many S30 I've seen were having the same exact problem. Not sure if it is a factory problem or wear issue.

I would suspect a wear issue and I completely agree that worn splines cannot be "repaired".

IF it is wear though, it would seem that a low mileage replacement might be an improvement and failing that, a column from a much newer car might do the trick.

[Tony D]

Chroming the splines oversize / rebroaching and then grinding them back to size is a standard, accepted spline repair process.

I think it should be possible for around $1500. 

We hardchrome splines all the time on worn drives in industrial service to salvage equipment. Rebroach the female section, hardchrome and grind to match line-to-line on the males.

Done all the time. The hardest part in the absence of proper engineering drawings of the originals, and unworn shaft sections is reverse-engineering proper lubricant clearance. Too much, the drive is sloppy (not really an issue on constant speed one-direction drives, but makes for 'play' in reversing drives which then can twist/shear splines) or too little and the splines seize/gall and then...well...in this application we have already visited those possiblities.

 

But it costs as much as most people bought their car for, so usually those types of repairs are not considered in this price range.

 

As Lazeum explains, the factory tolerance is unknown (I have steering columns with less than 30,000 miles and they aren't 'tight' in comparison to some of the new stuff. As Lazeum mentions, there may be sliding shear calculations for collapse that need to be considered....even and especially in the above scenario of hardchroming and rebroaching the female portions, as the 'fit' of the shafts may well be as good as it gets with the crash design from day one.

 

In which case, you're back to 'ignore it' because literally, there is nothing you can do to make it like a new Hyundai. Maybe change the upper column to something from another car. It's a four-bolt rag coupler, pretty universal.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Tony D

[clarkspeed]

Wow lot of passion on this thread.

 

I eliminated all of my steering play by re-clocking all the splined joints. The column was tight already so no problem there. So it can be done. So I guess I fall into the " find another column" club.

 

I set my toe with strings on flat surface. My main reason for fixing it was everytime I locked the wheel when setting toe, I found I was chasing the adjustment. I probably had 1/4 inch of slack before I started but never noticed when driving. So per JohnC's post, it was fixed for repeatability and future time savings.

[clocker]

Chroming the splines oversize / rebroaching and then grinding them back to size is a standard, accepted spline repair process.

I think it should be possible for around $1500. 

 

Done all the time.

But it costs as much as most people bought their car for, so usually those types of repairs are not considered in this price range.

 

 

In which case, you're back to 'ignore it' because literally, there is nothing you can do to make it like a new Hyundai. Maybe change the upper column to something from another car. It's a four-bolt rag coupler, pretty universal.

Access to that technology would be cool and probably result in a best case outcome but as you note, the price would be impractical for all but the most rabid.

 

Far more practical from a monetary perspective would be the "new Hyundai" donor vehicle route.

Not only would the newer donor (which is not necessarily a Hyundai, obviously) have less wear due to age but I'd guess also less wear because everything these days has power steering, which must lessen the stress on the splined shafts.

 

I'm sure there would be myriad details to attend to but one I can imagine immediately would be that the Z steering wheel/hub would probably not the fit new shaft. Most all the newerish cars in the junkyard have a smaller shaft the the Z.