HybridZ Is Not Automotive 101

[Miles]

Tony

 

I am not sure that all members will read this thread before they start posting.  In the interest of clear communication, this thread, or an edited version of it, could be pinned at the top of each forum. 

[Mikelly]

I think Tony is just being mean!

 

Bahahahahahaha

[Miles]

My point is: are new members meant to read this thread and learn  from it or is this just a thread  for administrators to vent? 

[Tony D]

I will admit this to any noob who think's I'm 'MEAN': Let me take your fingertip, and place it into the divot I got from a Champion L88Y.(Actually, feeling around up there, I think I can find three that left permanent divots. Ground electrodes dig!)

 

Explaining a scalp wound "from autoshop" to your father (who happened to be Superintendent of Schools) was exceedingly easy in those days, the only comment was "Well, I hope you learned a lesson from whatever gave you that gash, you probably won't make that mistake again!"

 

I guess growing up then was a bit more....uh..."physical"....

 

And yeah, I LEARNED! When you asked Rudy a 'stupid' question, you got a sharp rap from a nut or spark plug. Ask the man a GOOD question, and you would be showered with knowledge.

 

Being able to form a good question shows the cognitive ability to RECEIVE a detailed answer of several hundred words. It's a noob's resume for anybody taking their time and prospectively answering him.

 

And it is pinned to the top of the forum... That should indicate by title alone in fact, what people should expect here!

Edited February 1, 2013 by Tony D

[Chaparral2f]

My goodness Tony, we certainly are cranky this morning.  And to think its just because of a couple (hundred) stupid questions.  Oh, by the way, do I meed a special wristwatch to set the timing on a '33 Hudson? (Ducks at the sound of an approaching spark plug)  

[Miles]

Tony

 

Are you the same Tony D that posts on Zcar.com? 

[Tony D]

***My goodness Tony, we certainly are cranky this morning.  And to think its just because of a couple (hundred) stupid questions.  Oh, by the way, do I meed a special wristwatch to set the timing on a '33 Hudson? (Ducks at the sound of an approaching spark plug)***

 

"Thousand", not "Hundred" (And it was last night, for me!)

 

And asking which specialty equipment to use for a job wouldn't be considered plugworthy. That response usually elicited a 'Vass do you think you need to do dis chob? Unt vy?" Now, if you responded to THAT with a typical teenage "DuhIdunno?" the lightning quickness of a 1/4-20 nut from the box and on your way may be a response.

 

There were varied terms of response, size of nuts - force on the throw - and vocal response. You really had to piss him off to get the spark plug. I know I did it three or four times and it really was a stupid question--borne totally of my own sloth to reflect upon what I was taught and in retrospect I admit I DID know the answer.

 

See, the thing that style taught me was though repetition from an instructor will eventually sink in.... If YOU are constantly searching your own mind, you reinforce the pathways to what you were taught and it's FAR more educational to work it out on your own with your own knowledge. When you repeat it yourself, it seems to stick faster.

 

But you have to be willing to do that work. And it is work. 

 

The plugs and nuts just made it happen faster. If you got an underhanded toss of a nut and "the look" was a "you know better".

 

For my part, all I could think of was what he went through in the early 50's in Germany as an apprentice. I mean....the guys showing HIM the ropes had to be IRON. And I think they took their trade SERIOUSLY.... in fact, deadly serious. 

 

I think those were the recipients of the hardest whip of a D15Y (Champion Spark Plugs and AC/Delco were in Flint at the time, and they gave us BOXES of plugs...) were the guys who were not taking their lessons seriously. Or who took assessing the manual arts/trades in a backhanded manner or with derrogatory comments. Rudy hated the term "Grease Monkey." He also could not believe there was no apprenticeship in the USA for Automotive Trades. He was aghast that guys dropped out in the 4th grade and went to work doing a 20 year apprenticeship through trial and error than follow a German-Style start at 16 with Academic Training accompanied with rigorous technical hands-on instruction.

 

Some 20 years later, I had an old German welder come up to me one day out of the blue and say "You can use any of my tools from the truck. "You are the first American I've seen who knows how to use that (hacksaw) properly!"  If trained strictly, and while young, those proper methodologies carry you the rest of your life. Be lazy and slack in the instruction, and it only compounds itself later on.

 

It's the bane of my existence now in China...

 

I'm constantly reminded that on the last day of class he said "Zer ar not enuf zbarkploogs to fix zum off you, I can only do zo much viss mien time. Zum off you chould conzider other trades. Gud luck!" And HOW I wish I could suggest that to some of the guys there. Some people have a gift, others don't. You can't force some stuff, this kind of work is one of those things. Some people should just pay someone to do it, and be content learning what they can to understand what the people they pay are doing.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Tony D

[BluDestiny]

Miles, most of the old timers on this site also post on Zcar. and some on calssicZ. And I think TonyD may post on some other classic car forums. They don't post on ratsun much, if at all though (as far as I know).

[Miles]

During my build project three years ago I recall seeing posts  at  Zcar by a Tony D.  Good to know that there are reliable sources at the other Z sites.

[Tony D]

Were....

As stated, some don't post at other sites often now as there is really nothing but aggravation when you do.

 

Some places embrace excellence, and the pursuit thereof, others eschew excellence in the form of an egalitarian existence stressing a star for participation rather than for valid and factual information.

 

The more eyes to the site, the more you make. You don't get any more residual for Einstein posting, than for Forrest Gump, so why discourage Gump's Theory of Relativity on Chocolates?

 

It IS about the money, right?

 

I don't get that impression here though.

At another site, the direction became crystal clear long ago.

 

I'm at both Ratsun & Classic Z

 

I'm persona non grata at ZC.C. You can't give a direct answer there. Kids have no tolerance for truthful prognosticators, or people who don't apologise when they're correct.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Tony D

[BlackdogNY]

Surprisingly, some people would not respond well to having random auto parts hurled in their direction. It may make some never ask a question again, which is a shame.

A good teacher/boss/mentor should know the most effective way to get the best out of their people. Now, personal injury will work for some. When I was impressionable, a lug nut high and tight might be...returned. Later in life, as Jenna Marbles (very funny, cute dogs and ya HOT) said... 'Piss off MFer's'. I said it before, it would seem to take more time to tell a 'stupid question asker' they are a waste of interweb memory and we have answered that 10billion times.....whatever, just delete it. They will get the point without being belittled. Again, that 'stupid' person may help you one day. This site will not grow without 'newbies'. You have no idea what they have done before or could do in the future. I have been around Z's since the late 80's as a stupid college kid. That stupid kid drove a car back from CA, did some cool mods and because of this 'hybrid z library' will start my new project soon. Will I post stuff here...maybe. BTW back in the early 90's I know I had the only '77 with a VG30TT in it.... a NPTI built VG. Don't believe me, ask John Caldwell(you oldtimes should know him) about the kid from NY that bought one of  his motors. I have gone from saying 'piss off' to silently thinking it. I am not someone who think they know everything, quite the opposite. I love finding new ways to do stuff better and my ego is not so huge to be a problem. That unfortunately may lead to a quick ducking under my desk. For people like me, a little after class help may get me that LOF job.

I will continue to spend my time studying in the library(all the cool kids are at the dance).

 

B&G

[Tony D]

You missed the point getting hung on ego. Asking a stupid question is not the same as saying a person is stupid. Rudy's point that, INDEED there ARE stupid questions has been lost in today's Barny-Enriched world. To define a stupid question as Rudy did was this: "A stupid question is one in which you have not searched yourself, and your knowledge to answer first, before asking someone else."

 

To ignore them on the interwebs...might work. But will they learn faster if it is pointed out to them? Look at the reaction of people who end up in "The Tool Shed"! Some guys need more than subtle hints. And here generally people are VERY CIVIL about this type of thing...

 

Remember Rudy's Technique was honed from over to 30 years work experience hands-on before becoming a Voc-Ed teacher. It was within a framework where basics were clearly taught and to a known standard. Asking what the plug gap on an R44TS in a 77 Impala would get a 1/4-20 tossed your way, "that is what your tuneup guide is for, you can read, read it!" And he's right, it wasn't appropriate to ask that question in classroom and waste the classes time. Similarly question about torque for the plug... "That is what the book is for!"

 

Asking what you should do as precautions when the plugs were out, what the plug can tell us? That would be what was considered "a good question"... Even though the Champion and AC plug charts were on the wall.

 

Curiously, asking for reinforcement on the particular manual skill required to remove the plug or install it would always get a detailed response. As this was "the art", the "learned skill which differentiates us from a monkey" and he would take great pains to reinforce technique whenever possible. The whole class would be taken 'round to the questioners vehicle, and EVERYBODY would see the proper way to hold the torque wrench, how to brace the extension and break the thing free...

 

But that differentiation between "stupid question" and "stupid person"? I guess I just was never so insecure or ungrounded to think that someone telling me I asked a "stupid question" that it somehow implied I was a stupid person. Far from it, I recognised I was being intellectually lazy in my question, indeed each time when I reflected, I could admit to myself that indeed, I was taught the answer, and simply DIDNT want to think through the process to get my own answer. Learning to come up with the right answer is far more important in the working world than anything else outside of research skills. It's not being a "know it all" nor is it claiming to be, though being independent and having answers and the ability to elocute why tends to intimidate many people. And that is sad...

 

And that's the problem with the youth today.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Tony D

[Mikelly]

Correct. 

 

There are any number of reasons why I seldom go to other websites.  I have a number of them I respect and enjoy being a member of.  Others could go away for ever because they aren't a part of my world, and their membership is nothing but a bunch of sniping little twits who collectively have no spine. 

 

There is a generational gap and unfortunately sometimes the words and how they are used get in the way of a person's ability to receive or accept help.  Is what it is.  It's why I enjoy the sites I still participate in.  But make no bones about it, if you expect to get help with your research, you should know that we expect EFFORT on your part, in either DOING the research or ASKING the right questions.

 

The world isn't a kind place.  Wear an F'n helmet.

Mike

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mikelly

[Tony D]

We always joked about how good we got it with Rudy... "In his apprenticeship, they probably had SS guys with Lugers out back..."

 

Apparently overhearing us once got us the story of national heroes fighting at Stalingrad, serving their country, and then returning to do their part to pass on their trade..."with a passion honed from that ring of fire"

 

After that, I respected the intensity of his focus, as well as his teachers. It was a trait I saw in many of that generation wherever I encountered them...form both sides of the conflict!

 

Subsequent generations were decadent and weak...and don't appreciate how easy they get by!

[BlackdogNY]

My point was different approaches for different people/personalities. I did not know you were trying to teach people. Helping I would think is more appropriate. Arrogance and tough talk is not for me. It is to late in my life to change my ways. I am sure there are many more that feel the same way. If you don't want to help, don't. Some like to bitch about it. That's why delete seems best option. In the real world, I for one go out of my way to help if I can. Can't count the number of times jumpstarting/changing tires/pulling cars from snow banks whatever. Now, if I was at a track and knew the person that was in need of assistance was a arrogant dick, I would say to myself......hum, piss off. I have gone so far as to take the radiator from my car to help a a Z owner stuck on the highway.

I will usually read most posts that Tony responds to, even if it is nothing I am interested in. I told you before, I respect your knowledge and occasional sarcasm. Some are just plan fun.

You go a bit far sometimes, so be it. Mikelly, not so much. You seem to act like the cop that pulls me over for doing 23 in a 20(really happened). Unnecessary and a power trip. I could be wrong, some of my better friends started out on the wrong foot.

Just because Rudy had a hard apprentice does not means its the best way. Giving a dog a bone when they are good is far better than beating its ass for being bad.

I have yet to ask for help.... so we will stay in the library for now.

 

B&G

[Tony D]

What most are missing is the stated purpose of the site. 

While it's all well and good wanting to learn about your car, the POINT is THIS is not the place to be doing it.

A little is tolerable, but there comes a time when it has to be nipped as it's taking away from the purpose of the site.

 

Just because Rudy had a hard apprenticeship doesn't make it the "best" way, because there is no "BEST"---but it is a documented and PROVEN way that doesn't waste THE MAJORITY of people's time who are there to LEARN. Yes, a MINORITY may be offended, if you get butthurt because you can't see you're being intellectually lazy---then find someplace else! 

 

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Rudy's METHOD may be objectionable, but his POINT: That you should be able to figure things out YOUR SELF is the essence of teaching. A teacher is not there to belch out answers to people too lazy to think them out for themselves. His METHOD for making people THINK wouldn't fly today. But then again, teachers who make kids think usually aren't popular, because a lot of kids don't want to think. And if someone MAKES you think, they get upset.

 

If the dog just refuses to learn, you put it down or sterilize it. It keeps the breed strong.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with being a library, this was NEVER intended to be a popular "make money and sell-out" site.

 

That is also kind of the point. The OWNERS of the site don't care if there's a lot of traffic. 

 

What they want is traffic that is QUALITY.

 

"Sorry Charlie, we want tuna with good taste, not tuna that tastes good!"

 

If you want this place to turn into ZC.C, which drives away quality contributors (watch them leave every summer as the high school kids flood in, curiously the Moderator's worst time of it here I posit...same as Easter Break and Winter Break)....this is likely not the place for you. Go there instead. Ignoring a post is as easy for the reader as posting it in a proper site is for the poster. Why should everybody have to endure posts which add nothing? That ask nothing, that hasn't been asked and answered before? WHY? WHY can't the POSTER respect OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME and take it to the appropriate place? Why do they feel ENTITLED to answers HERE?

 

FOLLOWING THE POSTED RULES is incumbent on all. And that is a corollary point. There are plenty of places for BASIC information.

 

Some people miss the point that it's not important in everybody's mind to be "the popular site".... Some people care about their quality and competence.

 

That's what differentiates here from there.

[Miles]

Correct. 

 

There are any number of reasons why I seldom go to other websites.  I have a number of them I respect and enjoy being a member of.  Others could go away for ever because they aren't a part of my world, and their membership is nothing but a bunch of sniping little twits who collectively have no spine. 

 

There is a generational gap and unfortunately sometimes the words and how they are used get in the way of a person's ability to receive or accept help.  Is what it is.  It's why I enjoy the sites I still participate in.  But make no bones about it, if you expect to get help with your research, you should know that we expect EFFORT on your part, in either DOING the research or ASKING the right questions.

 

The world isn't a kind place.  Wear an F'n helmet.

 

Mike

 

 

“As you proceed through life, following your own path, birds will shit on you. Don't bother to brush it off.

Getting a comedic view of your situation gives you spiritual distance.

Having a sense of humor saves you.â€

― Joseph Campbell

[Tony D]

I can give another example of SSGT Cox is FTD 911. An instructor people hated or loved.

The prior instructor was a 'good time guy' -- followed the book, every formulaic. Not a lot of imagination in his teaching style---everything straight out of the manual. (Yawn)

 

You got a bit of information out of him. Exactly what was in the teaching syllabus. Just the way Uncle Sugar wanted it. It met the standards. It did not exceed the standards. Going to class was like a vacation, 6 hours teaching time...easy peasy lemon squeasy. I don't remember his name, Tsgt James I think it was...

 

Then SSgt Cox replaced him. He gave you homework. Oh god, you had to work after class. Having taken Jame's TTU228E1A Class, and then taking SSgt Cox's class it was like night and day. I understood WHY things in the equipment did what they did, instead of rote memorization.

 

But back to the teaching style. SSgt Cox would say at the beginning of class "There is always one, after you take this class, you will appreciate this bit of knowledge I give to you---there are people who can't think, who WON'T think, and they will always give classes like this a black eye. People are depending on you to come back and be THE expert on this machine. Some people they send simply are not going to be capable of absorbing that knowledge in the time they give us. Over the years I have figured out a way to tell who these people are. And once you see it play out in one class, you will see it too! You will come to see they stop YOUR learning because they refuse to THINK. They have been programmed. That is fine, we need programmed people to do what they're told, but that is NOT what makes a leader, a technical expert. I leave it to you to take hold of these people and not let them hold you up in learning. I don't teach to the lowest common denominator, I teach to give the people who CAN absorb all the knowledge necessary the most I can convey, but more importantly not to teach you how to fix this machine, but ANY machine. I teach troubleshooting through system knowledge, and if you follow these principles, they will work on ANY machine, not just this one. I want you to be able to go back to your shop, to a piece of equipment you've never seen before, and fix it with nothing but the tech data, and test instruments."

 

We started with electrical circuitry. He took out a yellow marker and said "First we will start with the Battery circuit, I'll use Yellow"

 

AND THERE IT WAS: Sgt Cox's surfire identifier! 

 

"But the battery circuit is RED!" Why? "Because the Battery Circuit is RED!" But I'm using yellow. "But the battery circuit is RED!" Why? What difference does it make? As long as you have a legend, and understand the colors used for each circuit it could be ANY color you want. "No, the battery circuit IS RED!"

 

And he knew this would be the wheel that slowed the rest. The guy that couldn't get it through his head to THINK on his own. These were ALWAYS the guys who HATED Sgt Cox, because they were the ones that asked the "stupid questions"---the ones that made the other guys in class roll their eyes. But rather than blurt out an answer (like James would do) Cox would say "Well what do you think?" And try to walk this guy through the logic to answer his own question. And the guys who said RED was ALWAYS for the Battery Circuit, they ALWAYS howled and eventually came up with the same thing we get today "WHY DON'T YOU JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION?" They were so upset they were made to THINK and be INDEPENDENT, to find their own answers after being instructed on the basics that would let them do this....REFUSED!

 

He gave you homework. But didn't ask you about it. Each night you came up with 5 problems in the circuits you were instructed on that day, you would come up with where the problem occurred, how it might happen in the real world, and what symptoms it might have.

 

Then came troubleshooting. James would go out, 'break something' then in pairs, guys would go out, troubleshoot it and 'fix' it.

 

Sgt Cox? He said "All right, you and you are one pair. Take your homework, go out to the machine and break it. You and You two (other guys) will go out and fix it. He would approve your problem, then let you go do it. The guys REALLY got into it for the next class they went to.

 

But some guys....oooooooh! "That wasn't fair!" It was 'stupid'---usually because they skipped doing their homework!

 

Yes, teachers who make people THINK (especially about things mechanical) are despised by the lazy. But they are a valuable resource to those who are willing to expend effort.

 

Like one Airman who made a plate to slip in a -86 Genset to simulate Wet Stacking. First thing in the troubleshooting matrix from  Detroit Diesel. VERY distinctive symptoms. Can't mistake it. But someone spent a day troubleshooting it. I believe it was the first 'fail' grade given to someone in FTD Class at FTD 911... There comes a time when you have to THINK some things out for yourself, but if you refuse to read the manual, or read the manual, see the symptoms CLEARLY STATED in black and white, then DISMISS THEM with a 'can't be that!'.... 

 

Then maybe paying someone else to do the work is a better alternative. Just because you can spin a wrench doesn't mean you SHOULD!

 

Cox was another guy who believed in teaching people to THINK their way through a problem, rather than just puke up an answer and hope someone remembered what they said.

 

Expertise comes through repetition. Isn't it better to teach people to think, and have them repeat that deduction process, rather than simply give them an answer, which they will forget and then have to ask about again in 2 years time? If they THINK, and continue to THINK to solve problems...when the issue comes up, even if they've forgotten the solution they were told 2 years prior, they will be equipped to THINK IT OUT. And they will solve it on their own.

 

If I get that to someone and they never have to ask another question again of anybody. If they have been made truly independent and able to think their way through the problem...

 

Isn't THAT the goal of the teacher, of EVERY teacher?

 

I posit it is. Then all you need is the library, and to go there once and a while to get reference material.

 

[wesmc]

wesmc,

You will be shown the "eff" ing door here if you want to buck a moderator when asked politely to follow forum rules.

If you think that comment was related to you complaining because I didn't capitalize a sentence you are mistaken.  After 13 years in combat arms my skin is much too thick.   That was directed at more than one comment in this thread that (as I read them) indicated John was being too hard on people.  I disagree and appreciate the help.

 

You were not the moderator I saw calling people out in the forums for rediculous things...until today.  So if you think a new member who donates right away needs to be banned for making a comment in support of another moderator, do what you've got to do.

Edited February 4, 2013 by wesmc

[zohanisback]

Whoa, it's getting a little too heavy all up in here for me... lol.  I don't really feel like chiming in much here.  ClassicZ is for stock knowledge and does a good job there with that, ZCar does a great job with all around knowledge, HybridZ aims to take members from each and turn them into more well-rounded, expert mechanics with cutting edge ideas and innovations.  I'm not going to use just one, and I post daily on each.  That said, ClassicZ is a little more fun to be on because it is more laid back and less uptight.  But that's the difference between community college and a competitive private university.  You're not forced to be on any one forum. You don't like the Harvard of z car forums, then leave.

 

In all fairness though, HybridZ has one of the WORST search functions I have ever used (I used to admin some large forums, your search needs HELP).  At first I thought it was just me until a couple weeks ago.  I search for "tire size fender flare" and nothing comes up with a broad forum search.  I use Google's boolean: "www.hybridz.org: tire size fender flare" and I get over ten hits with relevant posts right away.  I just had a post moved to the tool shed a month ago on the worth of an L28.  I wanted recent updates on a changing market, and it got moved.  No biggie -- the mod (you know who you are) says to use the search function.  Thing is, I had previously searched already and no new posts were present -- AT ALL.  Had I used Google search, probably would have been different.

 

POINT IS: You guys are a great community, and I won't ever leave.  I'm a little too soft to really fit in with the group and have made some pretty extensive responses to threads which should probably be moved immediately to the Tool Shed.  I've had threads moved there, too, but I know my way around cars, and you have high caliber information.  But your search function is the worst I've ever seen, and experienced forum users AND management such as myself don't post to be a PITA.  We do our homework, but we can't be responsible for low quality IP.Board apps you choose to use.

 

Consider this little digression, as you promote, blunt yet authoritative knowledge and constructive criticism.

 

Finally, members...show some respect.  There's enough idiots in the world without you joining the already overpopulated masses of them. If you have a question, pose it politely, and in the correct forum.  If you have searched, try to show us somehow and at least pick up the spoon yourselves. If you want someone else to hold your spoon and dinnertime, try the FSM.

 

Management, don't be pompous airheads and get on a power trip with your supposed accumulation of knowledge and authority.  Everyone needs to and can indeed learn more about something, including yourselves. Puhleeeeeaaaase...go be a security guard or cop if you want a power trip or prefer putting people down rather than helping them. And don't bite the hand that feeds you. Last thing an admin wants is an airhead mod or fellow admin getting into a verbal pushing match with a contributing member who will then take his story elsewhere. A noob is a noob, a contributing noob holds a bit of weight for future noobs. You're moderators -- a professional representation of a forum.

 

Well, that does it for me. More than I really wanted to say...   I'm off for the night, I think.  Have tests tomorrow, which means I should probably study some more.  Cya all!