rayaapp2 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 So as some of you may have seen, my 72 240Z was wrecked this past week(Dec 2). The front upper frame is twisted and I suspect the lower frame rails are also out of alignment. I could take the time to replace the front clip with another from one of my donor cars. It would be an effective repair and Im fairly certain I could get the car aligned properly with little effort. I could simply start by drilling the spot welds out and melding the two halves back together. But you know while Im at it, it really makes no sense to go through all the work of carefully removing the whole front half on 2 cars just to end up with what I started with. So I have 2 options Im working with and Im going to use this thread to get some ideas from some the hybridz folks. The first option is just to start anew with another shell and go from there, which should be in my budget. Option 2 is what I would like to explore. This option would be to remove the front clip at the bulkhead completely and replace it with a tube frame. Ive not seen a lot of tube frame Z cars. I think I can remember 2 that were really done right. One of them is on Reaction Research's website. http://www.reactionresearch.com/280yz/mikemurphy.html Im by far no expert, novice, or anything in the world of tube frames, but this car is a work of art to me. It's also far above and beyond what Im suggesting here, but I really like what the geometry is doing up front. I already have an idea of the biggest hurdle I will come up with. That should be how to combine the front tube frame structurally to the original unibody. I have some ideas after stopping by Moore Speed Company of Salinas Ca, however I have not completely solved the problem. The lower frame rails can be improved upon very simply and the floor pan can be improved upon and turned into a sheer pan for rigidity. I can tie the original floor pan frame rails to the rear and box them in across the front and back of the transmission tunnel with removable cross members. I can tie the re-enforced frame rails to a square tube bottom frame rail much like the original frame rails. The top however is much harder to tie into the cars structure. I think perhaps the only way to properly share the loading is to tie it into a roll cage. I dont really need a roll cage in the car, but its the only way I can come up with a proper way to disperse the loading. If I dont tie the upper front portion of the frame in like this Im afraid it will become a point of stress that may fail or allow additional body flex to occur. I just dont have the experience to plan it out properly. If anyone has pictures please share. Pictures always help me figure stuff like this out. If I can figure out what I need to do I can determine if it will even fall into my budget. I still have to locate new front body panels, a left turn signal, left fender emblem, and engine repair/replacement. My engine rotated in the opposite direction as I had to use the clutch to bring the wrecked car to a stop. The engine was stalled out when I finally stopped, but it now does not run well and I suspect that I may have bent a valve or two. Im not really in the planning stages yet, just really trying to determine which direction i want to go down. Anyway please share anything you guys may want to share here. My budget to repair or replace the car is about $8000. This car holds some sentimental value to me or Id just go out and by another. And there is something about the challenge of repairing something like this that just makes it all that much more fun than just buying another car that I cant really explain other than Im a glutton for pain. Another thing that might be helpful is the name of someone semi local to me that does fabrication like this that may be willing to work with me. Moore Speed does this kind of work, but they are busy with a ton of current projects so I cant get in anytime in the next 6months or something. Here is what Im working with: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I 'd pull the hood, fenders on both sides and the front valance etc off so you are just looking at the structure. It might have held together better than you think. You'll never know until you get it apart though. Do the doors shut properly? Has any of the glass look as if its shifted in its seals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I'm with motomanmike. My '72 had suffered a similar hit, but instead of a direct hit in the front, mine was pinched from front driver to rear passenger, between a semi-trailer and a wall. It had been previously repaired, and I finished the job, by building a wooden frame cradle with the hard points layed out and pinned, and using hydraulic tools, cutting of damaged sheetmetal, replacing some panels, removing and replacing the roof, making a new front headlight extension, ect. The core support up front had been wrinked in a second accident, but it was able to be straightened sufficiently to restore the proper dimensions. When I started, my car would teeter on the passenger front and driver's rear tire, using a single finger on the rear decklid. It can be fixed, it's all in how you want to fix it, and how much time you're willing to put into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 I 'd pull the hood, fenders on both sides and the front valance etc off so you are just looking at the structure. It might have held together better than you think. You'll never know until you get it apart though. Do the doors shut properly? Has any of the glass look as if its shifted in its seals? ROFL, Trust me when I say "it needs replaced". This car would embody the true meaning of a totaled out vehicle to me. I can see clearly that the strut tower has been pushed in and back towards the bulk head and there is significant waving across the the inner fender and upper frame rail. The bulkhead and rear of the car is intact though. The frame of the car is visible through the engine bay and under the fender. The radiator support is about 3" farther back on the drivers side than the passenger side as measured from the bulkhead! The radiator support is buckled on the passenger side near the air duct inlet. I do not have a way of checking the bottom frame rails for alignment currently, but I ssuspect based upon the damage Ive seen that the left frame rail is not straight, and if so Id wager that the right one may have been affected through the cross member. This was a serious hit! Ive been off work for a week because of it. My passenger and I ended up with a form of whiplash. My neck and back constantly hurt, but that is another story. Im cleared to go back to work on Monday. I figure in the next couple of weeks Ill get around to dismembering the front of the car though. Ill post back so you all can see what I can see beyond what pictures can show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) I'm with motomanmike. My '72 had suffered a similar hit, but instead of a direct hit in the front, mine was pinched from front driver to rear passenger, between a semi-trailer and a wall. It had been previously repaired, and I finished the job, by building a wooden frame cradle with the hard points layed out and pinned, and using hydraulic tools, cutting of damaged sheetmetal, replacing some panels, removing and replacing the roof, making a new front headlight extension, ect. The core support up front had been wrinked in a second accident, but it was able to be straightened sufficiently to restore the proper dimensions.When I started, my car would teeter on the passenger front and driver's rear tire, using a single finger on the rear decklid. It can be fixed, it's all in how you want to fix it, and how much time you're willing to put into it. There is one very big issue I have to address with this kind of repair. Whether or not these cars were designed with crumple zones, they have crumple areas. Once crumpled they cannot be straightened without affecting your rigidity and or safety during another accident. Not that we all want to be in multiple accidents in our Z's but I think this proves it can happen. Dont get me wrong Im not saying you or anyone else is wrong, but thats not the kind of repair Id exicute. Id just replace the whole front with a donor clip and install it as a jigsaw puzzle by removing the original clip from the car in a way that locks the new clip in place. It is a lot of work. It would include the full frame rail and I would use something like bad dog Z rails to lock it in place. To be honest I have made that repair on S30 cars twice!Although for your particular repair it sounds like you made an acceptable repair by replacing the fatigued metal bits! The only way I could do that is to replace the whole front clip. When i post back with pictures it will become all to clear. http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/rayaapp2/Bobs%20240Z/Orange%20Crusher%20Wrecked/2012-12-04084533.jpghttp://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/rayaapp2/Bobs%20240Z/Orange%20Crusher%20Wrecked/2012-12-04084657.jpg Apparently I did not get pictures of the inner fender of the drivers side. I thought I had. Ill get some of the engine bay soon. Im really not sure what happened to this post. Edited December 9, 2012 by rayaapp2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 ROFL, Trust me when I say "it needs replaced". This car would embody the true meaning of a totaled out vehicle to me. I guess the real question you need to find an answer too is do you really feel like doing work or walking away. I was replying in a sense that it can be fixed, probably a lot easier to fix than you might see currently. You need to figure out how sentimental this car is though because with 8k (as you know) you can buy a really nice roller and transfer the better quality upgrades to it. I'd try to save it if I could. Just the way my brain functions even if it isn't as cost effective. This is probably the same disease that causes my hoarding of parts LOL. Good luck. Tube chassis would be sweet but its all in what you want. I'd feel pretty invincible in a tube chassis Z though, might end up wrecking more with that kind of self assurance. I did just watch Nitro Circus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Driver side strut tower is 1/4" closer to the bulkhead, and 3/4" closer to the engine. With no benifit to just replacing the front clip other than to repair the damage, what I need to determine is how much more effort will go into a front tube frame for which there would be added benefits of strength and safety, not to mention the perks of being able to work around what ever suspension or engine I want. This is kind of a brain storm thread to see where I can go with this car. Im having a hard time letting it go obviously, it seems most of us suffer from this affliction lol. No matter which way I choose to go there will be a vast amount of work to get what I want. For instances, If I bought a shell there is all the body work to have the shell prepped and painted, then there is all the work that will go into transferring everything from the current car over and rebuilding the engine. If I bought a complete car with good paint, well Id still want to transfer over all my parts. There is no way around having to do something without giving up the habit you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomanmike Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 When else would you ever go tubed though? I mean would you take a car you bought for a project and tube it? Just tube it. You know you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Stop! Before you even think about buiulding a tube frame front end you must make sure you have a flat, level surface to mount the entire car on. Its very important that you have a flat/ level surface to measure from and way of attaching the chassis to that surface so it won't move if you bump it or do a bit of hammering on it. You also need good measureing tools including angle finders, levels, squares, metal rules, plumb bobs and frickin' lasers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/54629-front-tube-chassis/ Just some more discussion on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 19, 2012 Author Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) Stop! Before you even think about buiulding a tube frame front end you must make sure you have a flat, level surface to mount the entire car on. Its very important that you have a flat/ level surface to measure from and way of attaching the chassis to that surface so it won't move if you bump it or do a bit of hammering on it. You also need good measureing tools including angle finders, levels, squares, metal rules, plumb bobs and frickin' lasers. That is what I am coming to terms with. Since I will likely be doing this to 2 or 3 cars at this point(One previously planned out and one is a buddies) I have considered building a rolling flat surface to mount the chassis to solidly. like this but for the S30 chasis Just an idea for now. Someday I will execute a final plan on my 260Z. Im still up in the air about the 240Z. Im not going to let it go or not fix it, but there may be a significant delay in doing anything to it for a while. I always end up using the 260Z as my test subject for new ideas anyway. In the end it may turn out that I get tired of waiting and come across a nice front clip and just do it. Right now that just seems like a lot of work with no added benefit other than a simple repair when the time and effort could easily be put toward something like Im suggesting. Edited December 19, 2012 by rayaapp2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 To be brutally honest, I think one of your biggest obstacles on a project like this will be space, and cleanliness of it. I'm not really much better off, so don't take it personally (I didn't think you would, but others might think I'm stabbing at ya), even a half cluttered 2 car garage will be hard to work in. You'll need to make a solid jig that's perfectly square to work off of, and space around it to work. But, if you plan to make a tube front end to multiple cars, maybe taking the time to make a jig that's project specific could be beneficial. IF, and that's the big if, you can design something that's fairly easy to attach squarely to any S30, it might be "relatively easy" to weld together 4 or 5 of them and attach them at your leisure. John's point still remains though, and that you will still need to make damn sure that the attaching process is perfectly square, which is going to require holding the chassis perfectly square, which they don't do by themselves even under their own weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 20, 2012 Author Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) A nice 240Z shell just fell in my lap. It has a near perfect front clip. The rest is in really good shape as well except for the rear lower cowl. $500 dropped in my driveway! It came with a bunch of extras like straight front fenders, hood, and doors that I needed anyway, as well as tokico lowering springs, and polished turbo rims with 2 good Hoosier slick tires. Can't beat that. So I have a good donor clip. I really didn't think a straight front clip would just pop up. I haven't seen any in a few years for this price. I wasn't really looking forward to all the work of transplanting a front clip as I mentioned with no extra benefit, but when the opportunity was there I took it. I am still planning on 2 tube frame projects though. My 260ZR project and my buddies 75 280 "GMZ" are both going to have tube frames. Likely what will happen is that Ill build a sub-structure under the floor pan that ties into the rear frame/through the rear frame and into a nice roll cage. Basically integrate the rear structure of the S30 which appears to be very strong anyway into a roll cage/front tube frame. I'm taking some inspiration from a car Moore Speed Company is putting together for Rob Fuller's customer. I wish Paul Moore had pictures posted up of that car I could pass along. Id like to use a roll cage/front tube frame and a boxed underfloor frame to tie the whole car together retaining the stock rear strut structure. This makes the most sense to me without going full blown tube frame race car. It will be solid enough to handle the power levels we both want out of our cars, be safe, and provide the engine bay room for our needs without adding a ton of weight. I eventually would like to do the AWD conversion and a tube frame can easily be modified to accommodate that. My buddy is shooting for an LS1 turbo swap and the donor S30 is basically an outer shell with a rusted out core so he has to start from scratch anyway before the car rusts in half. I have taken measurements from 5 front clips and i have 5 different measurements! I'm hoping this new car is still straight enough to provide some better measurements. Maybe not, but worth a 6th shot. Why can I find skyline R32 or R33 chassis dimensions but S30 dimensions are out of the question? Edited December 20, 2012 by rayaapp2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) I have the dimensions, I'll get them posted here. EDIT: Here you go! Edited December 20, 2012 by Xnke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 20, 2012 Author Share Posted December 20, 2012 Dude! where did you find that? Any chance of a higher resolution so I can read the fine print? Also what year is this suppose to be? The major mounting points up to 74 should as I can tell be identical which is what Im after. The 280Z is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Ray, they're all in the FSM! Check the Body section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Scans of those pics used to be in the download section, I think bjhines put them there. A few of us used them to draw out roll cage designs. Might check to see if they're still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 Jon, It took me a while to find the new dowload section, but after I did I found nothing. Any other sources for those drawings and or scans? Thanks OH BTW The 280z EFI Bible is also gone and I was sure it was in that section as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santanawhite Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I had saved all the high res schematics. Ill upload them later today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted December 23, 2012 Author Share Posted December 23, 2012 I had saved all the high res schematics. Ill upload them later today Thank you sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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