value of the S30?

[AZGhost623]

Not trying to hate, love my car, never want to let this one go. Learned my lesson after letting go of my first two Z's (Old enough to know better now) But it got me thinking... Looking at these cars, it seems like if some car goes up thats over 10k+ it becomes very difficult to sell here in North America. But if you go and look over on the Japanese markets, you see these S30's selling for 30k+, and thats the norm. Even the super nice ones here in town like this one, and its been listed for weeks/months (another repost). http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/3638869169.html If this was an old Mustang/Chevy/Ford muscle car in the same condition as this Z, it would be 50k+ easy. Also at Barret Jackson here in Scottsdale there was a super sweet Z that sold for 10k this year. http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=49&aid=466

 

Is it more of a select few that have a passion for these cars, and they just arent accepted in mainstream society here in the US as a classic? Porsche/Ferrari have been, so I dont see why it would be a foreign car thing... So I am just curious more than anything, what is it that keeps a 30+ yr old car like the S30 from gaining value over other cars from the same era? Whats holding it back?

 

 

 

 

[BluDestiny]

They aren't "american classics". There are exceptional examples that have sold for quite a lot. I know Clive was selling some prime examples. and there are a few that are floating around that have had crazy amounts of labor done which justifies the cost. 

 

The only examples I can see that would sell for a lot are super low original matching numbers cars or race cars. 

[mditt8671]

"They aren't American Classics..." which also means that you see the other cars EVERYWHERE. Chevelles, Novas, etc are cool, but jeez seeing row after row after row of them at our local car shows is kind of boring.

 

I'm ok with them not being American classics. Especially here in the northeast, you just don't see S30s around anywhere. It makes our cars more unique.

[dsommer]

I hear ya, took me some time to sell my original Scarab.  Documented, clean car.  Finally sold to a gentleman in Norway!  Overseas buyers see the value in the S30's Americans...not so much.  You have to take one thing into consideration though the Z's are small with few creature comforts, older (insert 60's era classic here...) have a large aftermarket following, part for Z's not a huge market, have you seen a set of tail lights on e-bay NOS tail lights, 2K!  Whoah that's crazy but nobody makes knock offs.  There isn't really a market for them.  Except for us Z lovers!

[AZGhost623]

"They aren't American Classics..." which also means that you see the other cars EVERYWHERE. Chevelles, Novas, etc are cool, but jeez seeing row after row after row of them at our local car shows is kind of boring.

 

I'm ok with them not being American classics. Especially here in the northeast, you just don't see S30s around anywhere. It makes our cars more unique.

 

Well thats what Im kinda wondering. Hopefully TonyD will say something about the culture across the pond... Check out any of these websites, and some of these Z's are going for over 30k US.. What Im trying to figure out is why these cars sell for so much there, but not here. Very rare to find good quality cars here. And when you do see a gorgeous Z restored and they want 20-30k for the car, its nearly impossible for them to sell...

 

I believe the desire is there for these great Z cars. It continues to make top 25,50,100 best cars of all time lists. So whats the missing magic making a Z a classic car on a broader audience and creating that must have among collectors who pay big bucks for old sports cars, both foreign and domestic? Is there just too many on the market, so its more of a rare thing that drives price? Damnit why doesnt everyone just like these cars?

 

http://exchange.goo-net.com/

http://www.kuruma.co.jp/index.htm

http://www.rockyauto.co.jp/

http://red-948.com/

Edited February 28, 2013 by AZGhost623

[PLATA]

I have crazy money in my Z, I see values all over the board , we have purist, we have motor swaps, we have rat rods and every thing in between. Ebay is a good gauge to see what sells for big $$$$$ , it all depends on emotions , well sorted cars with room to personalize them seems to be ticket.       FWIW    

[Tony D]

"respect and appreciation of the marque in the shared common culture of that country"

 

Americans bought Fatsuns because they were CHEAP! Nothing more.

 

What's the latest Chevy Chevette Auction price you've seen? Pinto? Rambler? Nash Metro? Stock Vega? COSWORTH Vega? Corvair?

 

All "cheap American cars" which remain cheap...

 

The Datsun is in the same class.

 

It's why I usually only sell into Europe or Japan. Few Americans appreciate vehicles, and more importantly the value of a person's TIME put into them... Either working on it or finding it.

 

Typical rationalisation: "But you only paid $400 on EBay, you sniped me at the last second. I'll give you $450 for it! (Their diseased mind thinks this is ACCEPTABLE!)

 

Same parts, on offer to someone in the UK who wants the parts for their car (not NEEDS, just WANTS--as in discretionary spending) says: "Those look like the e-bay set, boy I wish I'd put my offer on those...here's the $2,000 you wanted...could you ship them, and do me the favour of calling it a gift and valuing it at $500?"

 

Sure, no problem, and I'll even include the e-Bay ad as provenance of the $400 for your taxman!

 

Second thing is COST OF VEHICLE OWNERSHIP -- in other countries, the COST to own a car...ANY car is STRATOSPHERICALLY HIGH compared to the USA. You simply don't have slack jawed minimum wage dropouts owning cars like you do here in the USA. As a result, you don't APPRECIATE what you have, and feel ENTITLED to keep what you got virtually free forever!

 

Minimum entry into new-car market in Japan is 1.2 million yen I think. Like $10k. On top of that, you will have inspection/plate fees of $2,000 annually...OR MORE. See those cars with red diagonals on the plate and no stickers in the windows? Temporary transport plates you get at LTO. Pay a fee or three days and go to the car show that weekend...as there is NO WAY it would pass official inspection.

 

The people who buy these cars overseas appreciate them for what they ARE, and not just "the cheapest thing they can afford".

 

I often say "I look forward to the time when the costs get to the point when the only people who have S30's, are those who appreciate S30's!

 

That is the case almost everywhere in the world but the USA.

 

In both Japan & Europe there is a STRONG culture of preservation of heritage, and appreciation of craftsmanship. Both are minimised in the USA. As a result, you get what we have here being discussed now.

[Tony D]

And as for "nobody makes them there is no market" -- B.S.!!!

 

Almost EVERY part available for a Z in 1970 is still available in Japan.

 

People in the UK regularly buy from there.

 

Japanese will manufacture or reproduce as long as someone wants ONE. Priced accordingly.

 

Problem is in America everybody wants their million in a day and they are not willing to wait.

 

NOS lenses $2,000? So? What's your POINT? If your registration is $2,000 a year, then $2,000 for a set of tail lights doesn't seem so bad. It costs ¥6,900 to fill a tank of gas in Tokyo... $75.

 

My plate fees are $48 annually, and it runs $63 to fill up... I guess using the registration/taillight sliding scale then I'm ENTITLED to tail lights at $48 a pair.

 

America now competes globally for products, resources, and jobs. Time to crawl out and come into the real world, desire and expectation of a captive market in the hugeness that is America is an illusion long past. Many are just now realising this. Some still live in the past...

 

Also consider this: Yen is not 336 or 268 any more. The cost in Japan in YEN for these items has remained relatively constant. They have no inflation. What cost ¥45,000 in 1984 is close to ¥45,00 today.

 

That $30,000 Classic 1972 Vette you just bough, unrestored, beat but running would only take $13,500 but in reality was selling for only $4,500 at that time.

 

I won't get into the politics but "no inflation seems to be a good thing"!

Edited February 28, 2013 by Tony D

[Tony D]

I have crazy money in my Z,    

This is a matter of scale. I know more than one individual in Europe and Japan with what THEY consider "Acceptable, Clean Drivers."

 

One was bought out of California for $5,000 on E-Bay.

 

That was the STARTING point.

 

€50,000 later it's once again driving. Having been "cleaned up".

 

People say JeffP is crazy with over $75,000 spent on his car in 20+ years of ownership. Imagine that commitment to do it in four years, or two, or within the first year of receiving it from the port!

 

If you can afford to have a luxury appliance such as a Z in many places, you have the means to properly care for it as "cost of entry" to drive is so high.

 

All a matter of scale...

 

We won't get into independent engineering review, certificates of road worthiness, MOT Inspections and various mechanisms that insure that ANY modification to a vehicle is one in a sound and responsible manner...which is the norm down under and in Europe.

 

You guys complain about a $6 inspection or a $60 Smog Test...how about "you have to tow your car home from the test site as its declared unroadworthy due to braking effort on the front wheels offered by more than 3%"?

[Tony D]

Having met the Principals and enjoyed tea with them at their offices, the Rocky Auto guys are typical of a high line specalist shop.

 

"Most of our customers drive Bentley, Ferrari, or at least GT-R!"

 

Yet these people want an early S30, or Skyline KenMary / Hako...

 

Many NBA Bentley Drivers own an S30?

[madkaw]

Let's face it- most of the Z guys are cheap bastards- please don't let me offend anyone, but it seems true. I am always reading of complaints of cost for aftermarket items or used items. Maybe because the perception - even from Z enthusiast - that this is an economy grade classic, so why should I have to pay lots of money for one - regardless of the investment in the car.

I am amazed that when selling oem parts- used- no matter how unique or rare- people don't want to spend more than junk rate.

Never taking into consideration that a part will be delivered to their door saving time and fuel and frustration of having to find te part.

Maybe the Z community is it's own worst enemy.

Then there's the stigma of imports. When is the last time you saw a car show advertised and there was no category for imports?

 

The funny thing is that everyone that sees my car thinks it is a more expensive classic - like a Porsche or other.

 

My 2 cents

[PLATA]

At local car events my Z, due to her transplant, sound, stance and sexy body she gets tons of looks, and always hear the comment '' lots of money in that car ". So the value perception is there but the will to pay is not there. Is it because the DATSUN marque is not recognize as a true collector or the icon that the Z seems to be is limited to a few  

Edited February 28, 2013 by PLATA

[Lazeum]

I agree with Tony's comments & others.

Here, in Europe, Datsun's are quite rare. People who want to have one are usually people who likes japanese cars. Value is much higher than in the US. My Z was bought for $8k in 2007, which was already not cheap, it is worth 20k€ in France now. So importing a Z from the US makes totally sense since shipping overseas is usually around $1500 + taxes.

 

I have to say, I've been looking on hemmings Z classifieds, I haven't seen good example for less than $10k. I believe price is going up on those cars.

 

When I go to classic car show with mine, very few people know Datsun's but they like the shape, the noise & the concept. It is not so often you can see in Europe a car with good handling (it's relative, of course), with full independent suspension, 6 cylinder engine reving up to 6k rpm.

S30 competitors is Europe froma Power / handling / period standpoint are 911, Triumph TR5/6, Healey's 3000 but their cost is x3 higher at least. So s30 starts to be known as a good alternative.

 

You also have to know that it is forbidden to drive a modified car on the open roads in France. Changing the stock brakes with bigger ones for instance makes the car illegal to drive, even if it improves the stopping power/distance. Changes need to be validated by state company, it costs usually a lot to do without having any guarantee of success.

We like to believe original cars are the only way to consider classic car. Somebody modifying a car destroys car heritage, it's like tuning up the Joconde with spray paint to make it look modern with fluo colors.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Lazeum

[Tony D]

At local car events my Z, due to her transplant, sound, stance and sexy body she gets tons of looks, and always hear the comment '' lots of money in that car ". So the value perception is there but the will to pay is not there. Is it because the DATSUN marque is not recognize as a true collector or the icon that the Z seems to be is limited to a few  

 

 

In AMERICA, this is the case. That is what I'm trying to say. America isn't the end-all-be-all of Automotive Endeavor. Toyota is now the biggest....due to the "America First" mentality.

 

Elsewhere, it's a rare vehicle, and sports car....and treated as such with great respect and a reputation for powerful engines that don't break. 

[AZGhost623]

Lots of good points. I believe madkaw hit the nail on the head "Maybe the Z community is it's own worst enemy."  

 

I think car collecting is all subjective; in the eye of the beholder if you will. Everyone recognizes the Z as being something important, even outside of the Z circles. I think we all want to continue the heritage of these cars just like any other collector wants to do. Im not aware of anyone who doesnt take pride in a Z they own and drive no matter what they have done to it. I have read about the Z being in the same categories of Porsche 911's and old Jaguars of the era, but still are looked down upon. If a community cant come together then it wlil always be "cheap american car" as TonyD stated. However, I definitely don't see the Z in the same car category as a Pinto LOL... but maybe others do and thats part of the problem? If thats the case Maybe the community as a whole needs to start raising the price on the cars they sell, and holding firm to it? Is it the companies like Kelley Blue Book or "Black Book" that keeps these values down? Is it the amount of cars still in circulation? I dont know how you even begin to solve that problem, or if it can even be solved?

 

The thing with the tail lights at 2000$, that is definitely over the top in my opinion. Parts dont need to be super expensive, that will just put off collectors or investors. Its not like the Z is super rare, only then could I see prices in some kind of range at that point.

Edited February 28, 2013 by AZGhost623

[R3VO 3VOM]

The thing with the taillights is supply and demand. Like the euro 240z lenses going for 1000+. Its what people will pay for them. There are many people that want and few to be had. So people will pay the crazy prices.

[rejracer]

I'd have to say it's a cultural thing that shows in the type of motorsport popular in a local.  In USA there are 2 prominent motorsports, NASCAR and drag racing.  In comparison to the UK, the yanks have very little interest in the way of touring car racing.  We also have much less interest in F1 racing.  The types of cars in our mass televised events use domestic V8s. 

 

Any knowledgeable modder knows there is a race mentality that plagues the public when buying cars & parts.  The old neck car racers had the saying, win on Sunday, sell on Monday.  Many of them also owned dealerships as well.  This bigger is better mentality is great for top dollar racing, but is an enemy of the average street modder. 

 

So why are our S30's so cheap? 

Overshadowed press coverage of the american V8 scene.

Lack of aftermarket (thus vendor) support while the cars were new.

Overall industry ignorance and interest of the OHV engine capabilites.

 

Would any of us be driving these cars if we could only have stock drive trains?  If it's not american V8 then it's a niche market, and cult followings.  In other words, it's not mainstream. 

 

As for me personally, I always liked the cars, I was not crazy about them though.  I happened to have one offered to me at a good price at the right time.  Over the years I started to like the car more and more due to it's reliability.  It was not until cheap turbo swaps became available did this chassis really become a draw for me.  I signed up for hybrid z somewhere around 2003, and with the info I learned it made sense to keep the chassis vs invest in a new platform.  Without Hybridz I would have sold the car years ago.  Now here's the hitch with car values, most modders don't want to get into all the tech details to get it right.  The mainstream market is a bolt on market.  if you want 250 hp from your Z, it's not bolt on.