cgsheen Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Anybody who says they have a "good running" stock L28ET, has never driven that same car with an aftermarket EMS on it! The drivability is night and day. Truer words have rarely been spoken... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~KnuckleDuster~ Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Anybody who says they have a "good running" stock L28ET, has never driven that same car with an aftermarket EMS on it! The drivability is night and day. I have to respond to this since I was the only person to say I had a "good running" stock L28ET. If someone is on a budget or plans on having mild hp goals theirs nothing wrong with going with a stock set-up. My car starts right up, idles perfect and accelerates smoothly without a single hiccup. Obviously an aftermarket EMS is king but since I'm the minority here I had to defend my ancient set-up haha. One day I'll go mega squirt.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Like I said.... Intellectual honesty prevails, I'm not going to debate it. Anybody who has taken a "perfectly running" L28ET and swapped to aftermarket EMS RAVES about the drivability improvement. To a man or woman, they can't believe the change. It's a different car and almost every one says "I regret not doing it earlier, I'll never go back." At this point of the project, having NO EMS whatsoever, nor harness, nor AFM, nor Spark Control, and looking at the prospect of BUYING every single component....why compromise on sluggish, disconnected throttle response, 30 year old (at the newest) ECCS box with dry caps skewing the signals, etc...instead of just getting an Aftermarket EMS once and being done with it, and being able to expand to 450+HP on that very same box? If he had a running L28ET and was doing a swap, that would be different. But he doesn't and he's going to have higher compression than the ECCS was calibrated to run with...not an L28ET! It just doesn't make sense given that starting point. And this coming from someone who's got intimate knowledge of the JECS ECCS and retrofitted them to other vehicles when Aftermarket EMS was a cost-prohibitive or unavailable prospect. It was near the best for its time, but it's hopelessly outdated and a relative poor performer against even an MS-1 with basic 8x8 tables, much less the expanded fuel and spark mapping in MS1 on MS-n-Se (or an SDS) the two entry level EMS's that fall quickly to mind for the beginner. If this was 1989, maybe. 2002? No longer! In Colombia, it's not uncommon for pubescent boys to take up and consort carnally with a donkey. Some may have several donkeys with which they have regular sexual relations, one reason given is it increases the size of their sex organs. Culturally it's accepted, and when they eventually find a female, they move on and leave the donkey behind. They realise it was only a one-dimensional release, and that a relationship with a human being is so much more fulfilling on so many different levels. I chose to leave the donkey (JECS ECCS) in my past, and suggest since he hasn't started, to not even waste the time. If someone chooses to screw donkeys, I will not stop them, but having moved on myself (MS Group Buy #2, 2002), I will not let them colour prospective newcomers into believing it's anywhere near the same experience. Edited September 22, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I use infinti M30, Z32, and maxima (VE30DE) ecus on my L engines. You could also run the early 90s maxima vg30 ecus and harnessing because they are near identical to the M30 setup except that you don't get a nissan consult port with them. The M30 ecu is the easiest of the three because you only have to swap the optical disc in the existing L28ET distributor while it takes a bit more work to do it with the other 2 since the disc is a different size requiring more than simple snapping things together like lego. "easiest" doesn't mean "easy" since you will have to ensure you have the proper wires going to the proper places to satisfy the ecu, injectors, fuel pump......etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) That's pretty funny. I ran a Z31 ECU on a stock L28ET for years, but with a modified fuel system. It raced fine, but absolutely sucked for drivabililty. If you revved the engine from idle then released the throttle, it would not recover to idle but just die. Nothing else was a big problem, but it wasn't great, just good. I am hoping I can tune my MS3 this week. Then I will be able to be as certain as others about the comparison betwixt donkeys and people. Edited September 23, 2013 by SleeperZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 Nothing is wrong with screwing donkeys, that's my point. And a Z31 system is not an L28 ECCS, I would say that's more sheep or monkey than Donkey... Not that there's anything wrong with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi303 Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 Screwing animals? You sure you aren't Japanese? Glory Quest studios would probably be happy to film you and your animals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 I said LIKE screwing a Donkey, or a Sheep. I knew bringing sheep into this would get a Kiwi's attention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuoWing Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 (edited) Due to this thread, and Tony's comparisons. It was enough to push me over the edge and go MegaSquirt. I've had a really decently running L28ET. The Z31 ECCS/MAF was definitely a nice upgrade over stock, but I'm still stuck by some of the limitations of it, not to mention I'm using what is quickly becoming a butchered up 30 year old harness. I've changed a bunch of things, and continue to keep finding issues amongst the old harness, while adding more grounds, etc. I keep working on my wiring harness diagram, changing it to reflect what I have done. I'm at the point where I pretty much could have built a MegaSquirt harness and been done with it. Edited September 27, 2013 by DuoWing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 "I'm at the point where I pretty much could have built a MegaSquirt harness and been done with it." That's usually how it ends up... I watched someone make big HP on his Z31, turn to me and say "for what I paid to get here on this car, I should have just bough that instead right off!" (Pointing to his newly purchased R32 GTR.) Some things only become apparent in hindsight ... Like pushing that gabby ewe over the cliff so she doesn't blab to the rest of the herd afterwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~KnuckleDuster~ Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I don't want to thread jack but it it's related. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to do with the CHTS. I have a location for it in the t-stat housing but due to it's swivel design it leaks coolant out. I purchased a 79-83 CTS because research told me they should be the same thing. With the CTS plugged in the car will not start and hold idle cold, and once warm drives like crap. If I completly unplug it the car will start / idle, and drive good until you get into boost then it just dumps fuel. At this point I'm pretty sure I need the actual CHTS installed but there's nowhere to put it on the N47 head. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) Welcome to "a "good running" stock L28ET"! The sensors are identical, it doesn't matter where you put them the response curves are EXACTLY the same so the input will be the same. Just delayed and somewhat skewed if using the thermostat location. I have had countless ECCS / EFI conversions where I made a harness to extend the CTS to reach the CHTS, and vice-versa where I used the CTS instead of the CHTS. They plug in and operate identically. You got a problem with the wiring, box, or sensor... You can plug the ECCS CHTS into a CTS in the thermostat, it works fine. You can extend the harness on an EFI engine to plug into the CHTS sensor, it works fine. They are functionally and electrically interchangeable, 100%. Remember I said "lets be intellectually honest here"? This is EXACTLY the BS I'm referring to with the stock system that's now 30 years old in the BEST case! You didn't do something stupid like wrap the sensor in a buttload of teflon tape did you? That will screw the pooch on the ground side like you wouldn't believe! ESPECIALLY on one-wire sensors! Edited September 29, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuoWing Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 An interesting thing about the CHTS is make sure you haven't dropped it. Once you drop these things, at least in my experience they're done for and just buy a new one. I've dropped the CHTS, and O2 sensors before and then had nothing but issues with them functioning incorrectly. Another thing I've encountered, brand new CHTS, yet it's still bad and reading wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~KnuckleDuster~ Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Yeah you got me Tony haha..I was just happy it was actually drivable. The funny thing is it had 280z n/a injectors from the previous owner installed and with the CHTS unplugged it ran good. Then I threw in the oem turbo injectors and it ran rich. Plugged the CHTS back in and then it ran good but my new problem now is it doesn't like cold starts. Thinking the cold start injector is the culprit now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Cold Start is irrelevant. Disconnect it, it's. Nothing but a priming firing pulse to get air flowing fast and move the AFM. IF you had MS, idling at 450 isn't a problem if you so choose,.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~KnuckleDuster~ Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 You didn't do something stupid like wrap the sensor in a buttload of teflon tape did you? That will screw the pooch on the ground side like you wouldn't believe! ESPECIALLY on one-wire sensors! I did wrap the threads with some because the CHTS didn't fit that snugly into the 1/2" to 1/4" brass adapter. I also had to JB Weld the CHTS because due to it's swiveling design coolant would leak out of it. Having said that the car will idle good when warmed up but if you turn it off and come back and start it a few min later the idle will hunt and won't stop until you start driving. Acceleration is ok, but when you start gettng into boost or go WOT it acts like it's holding back and revs will climb slowly. Can't even get in the 4k range without enough run way. Not sure if this is related to the jerry rigged chts or something completely unrelated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I have to respond to this since I was the only person to say I had a "good running" stock L28ET. If someone is on a budget or plans on having mild hp goals theirs nothing wrong with going with a stock set-up. My car starts right up, idles perfect and accelerates smoothly without a single hiccup. Having said that the car will idle good when warmed up but if you turn it off and come back and start it a few min later the idle will hunt and won't stop until you start driving. Acceleration is ok, but when you start gettng into boost or go WOT it acts like it's holding back and revs will climb slowly. Can't even get in the 4k range without enough run way. Not sure if this is related to the jerry rigged chts or something completely unrelated. From stud to dud in 9 days. Test temperature sensors by measuring resistance at the connection to the ECU to see what the ECU is using. Compare results to the temperature - resistance chart. You don't need to think about tape, or sealant, or anything else if the numbers are what they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuoWing Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Going with the getting off topic, I've never had these cars run exactly right when hot and then being allowed to set for a couple minutes. I believe it was Tony who a few years ago him and I had a back and forth over on Zcar.com where I hooked a pressure gauge to my fuel line and tested the whole heat soak theory. Within a couple minutes of leaving the hood closed after turning the car off after it had been nice and warm, on a warm day at least, the pressure gauge would go up quite a bit. Showing much higher pressure than what you should normall see. After allowing the car to sit for a while and start to cool down, the pressure would start to bleed off and actually rest a lot lower than what it was supposed to be at. You'd start the car up and now you're dealing with a few moments of sputtering do to the loss/bleed off of fuel in the lines and injectors, after a moment or two of throttle you'd end up supplying enough fuel to get everything straightened back out. On another note my current 76' Turbo Z never starts on it's first try from a completely cold start, or at least has a hard time. I'm assuming because of the aftermarket FPR that doesn't hold pressure when the car sits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~KnuckleDuster~ Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 From stud to dud in 9 days. Test temperature sensors by measuring resistance at the connection to the ECU to see what the ECU is using. Compare results to the temperature - resistance chart. You don't need to think about tape, or sealant, or anything else if the numbers are what they should be. When your have a non running car for over a year then get it running decent you tend to get excited. I'm very happy I can actually drive the thing at this point. It does run "good" it just needs some tuning and final touches. When I first made my "good" running comment I was running different injectors and different sensors, since then (9 days later) I've changed my set up and am currently in the process of making it run better. I appreciate you taking the time to calculate the number of days between my posts so you could make such a witty comment. You remind me of some other people around here with this elitist type attitude of yours. Really sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~KnuckleDuster~ Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Going with the getting off topic, I've never had these cars run exactly right when hot and then being allowed to set for a couple minutes. I believe it was Tony who a few years ago him and I had a back and forth over on Zcar.com where I hooked a pressure gauge to my fuel line and tested the whole heat soak theory. Within a couple minutes of leaving the hood closed after turning the car off after it had been nice and warm, on a warm day at least, the pressure gauge would go up quite a bit. Showing much higher pressure than what you should normall see. After allowing the car to sit for a while and start to cool down, the pressure would start to bleed off and actually rest a lot lower than what it was supposed to be at. You'd start the car up and now you're dealing with a few moments of sputtering do to the loss/bleed off of fuel in the lines and injectors, after a moment or two of throttle you'd end up supplying enough fuel to get everything straightened back out. On another note my current 76' Turbo Z never starts on it's first try from a completely cold start, or at least has a hard time. I'm assuming because of the aftermarket FPR that doesn't hold pressure when the car sits. That's good to know. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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