lazlo Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I acquired an early 260 and have her just about to go on a rotisserie. Hopefully this weekend. I have my goals pretty well mapped out for the car, but I also know myself well enough to know that no project is ever truly complete. What I am looking for is advice from members who have been down this road before. It will be street driven, not a daily driver but not a trailer queen either. I live in Montana where the fun roads have posted speed limits that are often in excess of what most cars can safely handle. I used my 82 2+2 as a donor and will be using the F54-P79, 4 BBL, close ratio 5 speed, and R200 3.90. That being said, I want to build in the option for other combos while I have her completely torn down. I have very good fab skills and all of the goodies in the garage to do what I need. What I would like to know is what should I do now to prepare for future options? Some things are a given for this project, such as frame rails, brake upgrades, all new wiring, 100% rust repair (thankfully very little of this to do), moderate seam welding, all new bushings and sway bars, etc. The big questions right now are whether or not to do coilovers with camber plates (probably overkill for a street driven L28) and whether or not to remove the spare tire well and convert to a fuel cell (definitely overkill)? In addition to these two big modifications, what would you do, or more importantly, NOT DO while she is completely torn down in anticipation of possible, maybe even probable, future powertrain swaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaohabq Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Well Really you're the only one that can answer these questions. A lot of it is matter of preference. If you think about it, All the upgrades are optional, but A lot of it is easier while the car is torn down, in that you won't have to worry about farking up the paint if you do it now compared to later. Camber plates are probably your best bet at this point. But a cage is really good to put in before you paint. Especially it you're planning a really nice paint job. Aside from that, The Fuel Cell idea, Sure you can, but on a driver its' not really worth it. If you were racing sure, but highway car, it's kind of a waste. Though I'd still get the tanks cleaned and sealed while it's out of the car. Next you may need to mod to body a little if you are planning on different seats. or putting on flares or an air dam. So keep that in mind. You've got a handle on most all of the common repairs. So it's up to you to decide how crazy you want to go before you put her back together. I really like the coilovers and AZCAR suspension parts. You could consider an LSD too, but that's also a later project that doesn't need to be done before paint. So think about where you want to be and what should really be done before paint, n there you go, you'll be set to make a list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrcbonk Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Lazlo, I used to live in Bozeman. I wouldn't want to be driving a backroad there without a full sized spare, cell coverage can be limited. For fuel delivery, I did a small surge tank, external low pressure pump feed, and external high pressure pump to the rail. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Yes, do camber plates and coilovers-never overkill-really a requirement to truly enjoy the Z car. Without camber plates, the Z is an understeering dog. Ditch the old gummy, dirty fuel tank and do a fuel "cell". Not necessarily a foam-filled certified cell, but at least a plastic (no rust), new, clean tank of some kind. Best with a sumped, in-tank fuel pump with a pressure that is consistent with your powerplant pressure requirements. Getting a clean, original fuel tank is next to impossible. And the up-side-down mounting system for a stock tank is a major pain to work with once you start upgrading. Build a fuel system that you can maintain while standing on your feet instead of one that requires you to take a fuel bath everytime you need to do something. Focus on future serviceability and exhaust clearance. Also, plan out an exhaust clearance plan by notching any crossmembers that will be in your way. Consider adding a crossmember of some kind across the rear floor (just behind the seats) where the differential bolts in-there really isn't anything substantial to support the differential. Cut out the seat brackets and make new ones that put your butt on the ground-with a helmet, you will be cranking your neck if you put in a roll cage. Put in a roll cage. After that, you can start having fun. Skip all the B.S. brake "upgrades" based on production brake calipers and just go to a Arizona Z Car system. If you ever want to run wide rubber (anything wider than 7 or 8 inches), go ahead and cut your fenders out for over-fenders (the cutting is easy-its the welding that is difficult). If you are going to do a rotissery, think about painting your floor pans gloss white-it makes it so much easier to see under the car when you are wrenching in low light situations-avoid undercoating, except inside your fenders to catch rocks and pebbles. If you can find any fiberglass panels: fenders, hood, hatch, use them as these metal panels rust out about 10 years after your last paint job. Nothing pisses me off more than a big rust bubble in a panel that I devoted weeks to prepping and painting. Protect your glass when welding-the splatter ruins the glass. Relocate brake and fuel lines out of the trans tunnel-they are hard to work on once the engine and tranny are installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Thanks Folks! It's not surprising that I got different opinions, that is what I was looking for and expected. The responses kick in a few questions: Why install a roll cage for street driving? I am 6'4'' and guard my head clearance pretty jealously. Is the recommendation because you consider it mandatory for chassis strengthening in high HP applications? Bill, Thanks for the thoughts on a spare tire. I already keep a full size spare + a can of fix-a-flat + a plug kit in my other cars. You definitely need belt and suspenders out here. I was leaning towards storing my spare on the deck with some custom straps if I do go fuel cell. Wiring and fuel delivery are two things I don't mess around with considering the backroads here. I had an electrical gremlin stop me dead in a canyon a couple of years ago in my 82. I am just paranoid enough to travel around with a high end meter and electrical repair kit. It came in handy getting me going again. Had a fuel hose start leaking on me 75 miles from home as well. Long story short: I've learned my lesson the hard way on electrical and fuel delivery. I am a fan of AZC and was already planning on getting Dave's mustache bar. I got my intake manifold from him a few years ago. I was in Mesa and gave him a ring, he invited me over to pick up the parts and showed me around his garage. I had a question when doing the install and he was super helpful. I'll definitely be buying from him again. Any recommendations on Fiberglass? A good many of the threads on here are many years old now. I was thinking about getting a hood from Unlimited. Good insight on the fenders, I just really wish I could get some metal ones to weld in without fabbing my own on a wheel (but I do have access to one ). I could learn to live with some ZG's but metal would be so much better. Seems like I saw some available out of Japan but I gagged on the price when you throw in shipping. Thanks on the heads up about crossmenber notching. That's a good one to consider now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 You may want a roll cage eventually, and it sucks to put one in a car that is already painted and assembled. You don't have to do one but if you do, now is the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Don't do a fuel cell - have the stock fuel tank restored. I've read a lot of things over the years I've been browsing here about fuel cells, and what I've gathered is that they're a pain in the ass and really only belong on race cars. They're also quite expensive to do properly. I've since lost the bookmark, but a member here upgraded the stock fuel tank with an ATL black box. I think the member was 1tuffz. Having the tank restored and modified will be expensive too, but you won't need to do ANY fabrication on the car, you can still use the stock filler (as opposed to having to open the hatch every time you get fuel), and you can still carry a spare tire, which I would recommend. You should be able to find the thread on the modification pretty easily with a search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Definitely rust repair, that's pretty obvious. Depending on the condition, a body alignment, no point in building up a car if it will crab. If you are thinking of any roll protection, now would be the time to drill the holes and put in the mounting plates for a bolt in bar. You may never need it, but it will be a pain to take everything off interior wise to put in the plates/reinforcement brackets. If you don't plan on doing any type of racing where it is needed, great, glad you see them as a hazard as they very well can be. Fuel, making sure you have enough flow to meet eventual power goals. It can be a real pain the arse to drill new holes and retaining clips every time you meet a power goal. Fuel cell may indeed be quite tedious, but something to replace the old fuel system. The number of problems resulting from a rusty tank or pickup is numerous and the solution is easy if you have the tank out. If you are going for a bit of power, a sump of some kind will come in handy. Cheaper/easier then a surge tank. Sealing, going over every nook and cranny, like between the rear fender and the trunk floor and sealing everything. With the car stripped you can literally lift the car with 2 people, flip it over on some boxes and start sealing. Way easier then laying on your back. Camber plates, definitely you can still run stock style suspension with just a camber plate on top, but welding in a camber plate can be difficult if you are leaning over a fender and have to sand away all the paint. Much easier standing in the engine bay. Brake lines, definitely do them. The DIY kit is 50$ or something silly, and you get brand spanking new lines. Replacing the old flex lines with new flex lines is also a good idea, but not as difficult down the road as replacing the hard lines. Gauges and switches, adding/wiring gauges while the dash is out is probably the best thing in the world. Having to remove the center panel and use wire strippers and crimpers in side the dash is a contortionist act in and of it self. Wiring, definitely down the road, but making sure the wiring is up to par. A big pain was putting the car back together to find that my right turn signal wasn't actuating very well. Taking the steering column apart is quite an annoyance. Installing the relays for the headlights etc would have also been easier without the engine in the way. Ordering everything ahead of time. Nothing kills progress like realizing that you forgot to buy a cotter pin, a seal, a bolt, an adapter, etc. The number of days where I start on something only to realize I don't have the right part is too embarrassing to recount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Some things are a given for this project, such as frame rails, brake upgrades, all new wiring, 100% rust repair (thankfully very little of this to do), moderate seam welding, all new bushings and sway bars, etc. probable, future powertrain swaps Spend some time thinking about the "givens". Many of the popular mods are popular for irrational reasons. Some have been shown to be ineffective. Some of your old parts might be fine. On the future - if you're going with EFI over the 4-barrel carb, then the surge tank sytem, fuel cell, bugger fuel return lines, etc. make sense now. If not, maybe the stock system is fine for a carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Recap of what I have gathered so far in the way of advice Yes- Do a coilover conversion now Brake and fuel lines Rust Wiring Sealing I am already planning on doing the entire underbody in white with no undercoating, except for the wheel wells Bushings, bearings, sway bars, end links, tie rod ends, and any other wear items Maybe- Fuel cell...I pulled my tank out and looked at it again, it actually is in very good shape on the inside (still shiny ) No real need or benefit for a street car and you lose the spare tire well but I really like the idea of having a modern, easily servicable, and almost infinitely configurable fuel system. Brakes... The AZC brake kits are a work of art but are they really worth $1700 in performance for front and rears when I can do the Toyota Calipers up front and the ZX calipers and rotors I already have for the rear? I just need the maxima brackets at this point. I get it that this wouldn't necessarily be a performance upgrade but is much better for serviceability. And AZC is an easy upgrade later without affecting the body work/mods I will be doing now. ZG flares...lots of functionality and opens up the possibilities for many more tire and wheel combos, but I am just not a fan of the ZG look and would like to keep it more of a sleeper. No- Roll cage, this car will 99.9% likely never be raced and I want to use the stock seat frames with new foams and vinyls I have the overall build pretty well figured out, this will be a street driven car, no radical body mods, L28 for now but I want the option of doing something different in the future if the urge hits me. So for the purpose of the work while it is on the rotisserie, it will go something like this: Clean all to bare metal and kill any hint of rust. Moderate seam welding, shave marker lights and lower rear valance for early 240 style bumpers, shave vents, stiffen firewall in front of pedal box, frame rails, camber plates, new brake and fuel lines, notch crossmembers for possible future dual exhaust (is this a waste of time if I choose not to do a fuel cell?) Am I missing anything that would be required chassis mods IF I were to to an SBC or VQ swap later. I am not concerned with bolt-ons for now. It'll be several months at best before I have her ready for paint and start re-assembling. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Seam welding is a pain in the ass since you have to deal with all the seam sealer they put on the car. Personally I'd skip the seam welding and just add in a few well placed braces. Bad dog frame rails, and front and rear strut bars a bit like THIS should be plenty, since it doesn't sound like you're doing anything wild. I'd leave the vents. They do serve a purpose. When you shut the doors, those vents let air escape. Yes, you need a different fuel tank if you want dual exhaust. If you don't like the look of ZG flares, I wouldn't bother. You don't need 275+ race tires for any kind of driving you would be doing on the street. I think a lot of people here overestimate how much tire they need. And don't forget, bigger wheels and tires are heavier. If you aren't making use of that extra tire, you're actually slowing yourself down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Consider keeping the rear drums. Maxima or ZX based rear drums are a total waste of time. I've had them-I was warned-I did it anyway-I regret it. Only do it if you like to waste time and money. I can't speak to the Toyota front brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) What was so bad about a rear disc brake conversion using Nissan components? I feel like I have read about 40 threads on brake conversions and the only downside was the effort, not the performance. I would really appreciate any specific feedback. I can get the Maxima brackets to go with the ZX calipers and rotors that I already have for $56.40 each. It seemed like a bargain to me, even when I add in another $100 for a new MC. I'll need a new MC no matter what I do other than keeping them stock. The money spent on switching to disc in the rear seems well worth it on the servicability factor alone when I consider refurbing the drums. Conversely, Other than the bling factor and being able to throw myself into the front windshield when I stomp on them, what is the compelling reason to go with an AZC conversion.The rear calipers, rotors, brackets, lines, and then parking brake calipers will be almost $1100. Add another $850 for the front end. I have a healty budget for this project, but am trying to balance performance and money. I can swallow $1600 on a coilover setup, but dumping another $2000 into brakes is a little tougher. My budget looks something like this, and I am doing everything myself, including paint and body, except for machine shop services: I budget fat and add a contingency because I have learned over the years that it is the only way to avoid cutting corners that I will regret later....which is the theme of this whole thread. Paint and Body: $1000 in materials Suspension: $2000 Engine & tranny rebuild: $1500 Interior: $1000 Odds and Ends (air dam, electrical, mild brake mods, exhaust, etc): $1500 Wheels and Tires: $1200 That gets me to $8200 Add another $1300 for contingencies and I am at $9500 for this build. (still considering reverting back to the round top SU's I have sitting in a box and a few other items) I am confident that this is a reasonable budget to get me a clean, reliable, and fun sports car that I will be proud to own and maybe even pass on to the kids someday. Adding $2000 for a high end racing brake conversion is a +20% adder that I can't see the value in. Edited June 5, 2014 by lazlo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 For the rear discs... No real performance gain as mentioned Quite a bit of work, to do them "correctly" one would have to undo the stub axles and bull the stubs and put the full 4 bolt bracket in Getting the parking brake to work and hang properly can be real tedious Finding the hitch pins/retaining tabs can be irritating More volume is used so need a bigger master cylinder Lines will have to be figured out as the stock setup will not work Most kits will limit you on wheel size to 14 + Depending on the setup, the rotor will have to be custom sourced. I think turbo280z on youtube has a good video explaining the problem that can occur where the pad isn't fully engaging the rotor, just the outer 1 inch of it. That is just playing devil's advocate though. I'm personally all for it if you can work it into the budget. Taking the rear hub apart is good to get new bearings and seals in there if it has not been serviced recently You can cut one of the bolt tabs off to slide around and use just three bolts if you do not want to take the rear stub apart Taking time to figure out the line routing and stuff will be real helpful if you plan on lowering the car as the stock configuration can cause interference Definitely easier to service in my opinion, you can get away with just pad replacements if you are running a soft compound on the street for a while, so one bolt off, swivel, insert pads and good to go. Drums are a bit more tedious. Regarding a wilwood setup. It boils down to pads and rotors. The options for different types of rotors (vented, slotted, drilled, etc) and pads (full range soft to race), are going to be more readily available then it will be for a toyota suv/truck. I would imagine they would be a bit lighter as well? If you have spent any time adjusting the rear parking brake, you can very quickly see how a spot caliper or something with a simple hookup would be appealing, the Z parking mechanism isn't the easiest to service and or adjust. Out of the 4 or 5 I have been under, and another 5 I have asked owner's about, no one has had a working parking break mechanism. My thought was the installation of camber plates, not necessarily coil overs, just the camber plates. If the budget for suspension is 2000 I would spend it on new bushings all around, new ball joints, tie rod ends, etc. If you went coil overs you will most likely need some kind of adjustable LCA and an adjustable Tension rod for the front so that will blow a 2000$ budget right out of the water. 1500 was what I ended up spending on the engine alone and that was with being ridiculously frugal. Valve regrind, head decking, inspection, cleaning, new valve stem seals, etc 250 Block boiling, deglazing, boiling, inspection 250 New rings, rod bearings, crank bearings, etc 150 New water pump, thermostat, thermostat housing 100 New timing chain kit with timing chain tool 150 New gasket kit 100 Block plugs, spark plugs, plug wires, rotor, coil etc 100 Alternator, voltage regulator delete, etc 150 Motor mounts, paint, oil, filter, etc 150 And that is using the cheapest name brand parts I could find, reusing pistons, reusing head bolts, rod bolts, getting discounts for lining up and adjusting the valves myself, bringing a bare block for cleaing/glazing, self transportation, buying parts on e-bay, assembling my self etc. I think you may either need to give yourself a larger contingency or budget more generously. My one major "I wish I would have..." would be I wish I would have budgeted more/saved more before embarking on this whole trip. Always good to over budget and save, then under budget and abandon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Fuel cell vs stock tank can most easily be answered by budget and what your long term plans are for the car. I have a '77 280Z (fuel injected from the factory) and I am still running the original tank and fuel lines and I've upgraded to an LS1 V-8 - just put in a higher pressure/higher volume pump. If you're going to stick with a carburated L28 then just clean and treat the tank and continue on. Brakes - again depends on what your plans are. If you are just going to use it as a daily driver then stock brakes are fine. If you see yourself yielding to the temptation of canyon carving on those wonderful curvy Montana roads then you may want to consider upgrading to larger vented rotors in the front and 4-piston calipers. Willwoods work great. I modified my rear brakes to using 300ZX rotors with 240SX calipers to effect a minor upgrade and still retain the e-brake function. It does require going to a larger master cylinder and installing an adjustable proportioning valve. Suspension - again - for daily driving and stock wheels/tires a refreshed stock suspension is fine. I ran Texas Motor Speedway with the european spec springs and some KYB non-adjustable struts. Competition worthy - no - but definitely got me around the track. If you're thinking you'll be hitting some high speeds and will want more rubber under you then start with coil overs which will give you a bit more room under the stock fenders. You could run 245/40-17's on all four corners and that would be plenty if you invest in good tires. If you want massive rubber then you're going to have to plan on some kind of flares in addition to the coil-overs. In my mind the coil overs are the best bang for the buck - you don't have to modify the body and you can get serious rubber on the car plus you get better springs & struts. Camber plates give you the option of full adjustability on all four corners if you ever intend to seriously compete the car. Mine is mostly a daily driver but I've done my share of "spirited" driving and I don't have camber plates or adjustable LCA's. If you're seriously considering speeds in excess of 105 then I strongly recommend some kind of front and rear spoilers. A stock Z starts getting unstable at speeds over 105. I installed an MSA system and I know mine is solid to 130 now - probably more - but i've never gone any faster. I think if you start with some seam welding, welding in a set of Bad Dog frame rails and taking care of any rust or other body damage and you'll be well on your way. I too am 6'4" and kept my stock seats. I'm fine until I don a helmet and then my head is cranked over to one side. If you're going to be the primary driver then find a way to lower the seats by about an inch. It will also help your thighs clear the steering wheel a bit better) I have a 4-pt roll bar in my car. It adds to structural rigidity (especially if you weld a tab into your roof that can bolt to the bar. It is my concession to improving survivability if something goes horribly wrong. Edited June 7, 2014 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Fishtank for Sharks with Laser Beams on their freakin' heads in the spare tire well, with a flip down plate so they can act at tailgunners in case of hot pursuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 I got her up on the rotisserie on Sunday and will be moving the conversation over to a build thread very soon. Thanks for all of the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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