Should I buy a Z car?

[7ur7le]

Hello all,

 

I am new to the forum and would like your advice to see if a Z car is a good fit for me.

I am very interested in the Z car because of the way they look and all the available transplants. They just look very sleek and aggressive.

My worry is the rust. I am pretty mechanically inclined. I have worked and own many imports such as Toyotas, Hondas and Mazda’s, so I am not new to working under the hood of imports. However I never had to deal too much with rust. I live in Seattle so I am even more worried since it is very wet over here for the most part.

Besides rust, my second worry is cost. I understand that they are old cars and need work and attention. I do not mind putting in money and work I just wouldn’t want to spend over 15k on a second car that I will use on weekends. I will mostly be using this car as a weekend car and go to some track days every so often.

I appreciate any advice on comments on how it is to own a Z car. Thanks in advance!

 

P.S.

I am looking in getting a second car regardless but this is just to determine what car. Other cars that I have in mind are BMW e30, Porsche 944, Rx7 (FC or FD). Basically something RWD that provides a great driving experience.

[psdenno]

Part of the buying process is checking for rust. There are lots of rust free, or minimal rust, Zs available. Read through the message archive for tips on spotting the typical rust areas on a Z. Having owned a 944, I'd suggest scratching it off your list if you're trying to stay within a budget. Repairs are expensive and labor intensive. A Z is less expensive to maintain. Good luck with the search!

Dennis

[rturbo 930]

First, are you interested in a 240z or 280z, or don't you care? 280zs are heavier, but better built, and a little (only a little) more luxurious. 240zs are light and nimble, and a bit more raw.

 

And second, depending what your priorities are, I'll tell you that the E30 is simply a better car than the Z. More enjoyable? I don't know, that's really a preferential thing, but on paper, it's a better car. Period. Parts are also more available, and generally cheaper as far as I can tell, as is entry cost (although it's going up, but so is the Z), it's got four seats, and the option of four doors, cruise control, a limited slip and CV axles from the factory as well as four wheel disc brakes (depending on model), and powersteering too (the factory rack is slow, but you can replace the it with a quicker one, and/or delete PS altogether). The Z has lots of swap options, but E30s do too (M30, M50-S52, and the S54, and more). And while I've never autocrossed my E30, it's definitely a great car. And it doesn't have to be just a weekend car either, which I can't really say about the Z although some would argue that point. Rust is definitely more of an issue with the Z than the E30, but shouldn't be too bad where you are since there's no salt on the roads in winter.

 

Zs have the better motor from the factory. Even though the M20 is fairly similar to the L28 (SOHC I6, 2.5 or 2.7L stock for the M20, 2.4/2.6/2.8 for the L series), I'm pretty surprised as to how few people are making decent power with it in NA form. Especially surprising considering the M20 has a crossflow head, and the L doesn't. There seems to be a few people in AUS making insane power, and everyone else can barely do more than 250 - AFTER stroking to 3 - 3.2L. Swaps are pretty straight forward for the BMW though, I think the Z takes a bit more work if you're swapping in something besides the L. I also like how the Z trans shifts MUCH more than the BMW. Lots of people seem to like the BMW transmissions, but I must have a bad trans (possible@270k miles) because I really don't think it shifts that well - and yes my bushings are fresh.

 

Since you're planning on tracking the car, I'm assuming you're gonna want camber plates. For the Z you're going to need weld in plates, or GC's bolt in plates, which require cutting. The BMW will require welding in camber/toe adjusters on the subframe (no camber plates), and BOLT IN camber plates up front, or E28 camber plates (which are better, though I'm not sure how) which require some light cutting up front for clearance.

 

And wheels and tires... There might be a cheap and light after market wheel available for the Z but I don't know what it is. There's a few options for the E30, my personal preference being TRM C1, available in both 15x7 and 15x8 for under $500 for a set of four. That's really cheap.

 

If I were you, I'd find someone willing to let you test drive their E30/Z and see which you like better. Make sure it's not stock, since Zs are a little dull when stock, IMO, 280Zs especially. http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/index.php is a great site for the E30.

 

I haven't done a very good job selling the Z, have I? haha... As much as I love the Z... there's a good reason I bought my E30. Still, you might find you like the Z better.

Edited June 15, 2014 by rturbo 930

[7ur7le]

Thank you Denis and Rturbo 930!

 

It’s very insightful hearing from your experiences with cars that I am considering.

It probably will be best to test drive the Z and an e30. Right now I have been looking at 280z because for some reason they are more readily available in my area than the 240z and because they are fitted with the bigger 2.8L. However, now knowing that the 240z handles a bit better makes it more attractive. I tend to enjoy a better handling car even if a few horses are lost.

 

I tend to like the styling of the Z more than of the e30 but I have seen a difference in prices between the two. A solid Z is much more than a solid e30. Being newer cars, the e30’s tend not to be as beaten up (as well as rusty and trashed interiors) as the Z.

 

Thank you for your input; it is very helpful and greatly appreciated!

[rturbo 930]

Thank you Denis and Rturbo 930!

 

It’s very insightful hearing from your experiences with cars that I am considering.

It probably will be best to test drive the Z and an e30. Right now I have been looking at 280z because for some reason they are more readily available in my area than the 240z and because they are fitted with the bigger 2.8L. However, now knowing that the 240z handles a bit better makes it more attractive. I tend to enjoy a better handling car even if a few horses are lost.

 

I tend to like the styling of the Z more than of the e30 but I have seen a difference in prices between the two. A solid Z is much more than a solid e30. Being newer cars, the e30’s tend not to be as beaten up (as well as rusty and trashed interiors) as the Z.

 

Thank you for your input; it is very helpful and greatly appreciated!

A few more comments....

 

1) A 280z will be quite a bit cheaper than a 240z.

2) A 240z doesn't necessarily handle better. 280zs have taller rear strut towers by and inch or so, but otherwise, pretty much the same suspension, if not exactly the same geometry. A lightened 280z with better springs/shocks should handle as well as a 240z with springs/shocks.

3) The L28 will bolt in place of the L24. Super easy swap.

 

I agree with you, the Z is better looking, although The E30 is still a great looking car. The Z is also a few inches shorter, heightwise, and feels more like a sports car.

 

I edited my first post in here with more info BTW.

Edited June 15, 2014 by rturbo 930

[Tony D]

Second vote for E30.

[ryant67]

Depends what you are looking for.  There are times I wish I had some of the comforts that something like an E30 offers, namely cruise control, 4 seats, and a quieter interior.  If any of the above (cruise excepted, as it's an easy fix) matter to you, then go for an E30.  If however, you want a raw, visceral driving experience, and a cool, seriously old school sports car, then the S30 is the way forward.  

I feel the negatives of the 240Z are well worth the little hassles.  The engine is a joy to work on, the interior is certainly comfortable enough once you soundproof it, and these cars are still far more affordable than they ought to be.  

Erm... this doesn't help much I realise, but hey, they are both bloody great choices.  I suggest that you keep an eye out for both, and whichever pops up first in the right condition, grab it and never look back!  

 

[PLATA]

My 2 centavos >>>> get a 240 , do an LS1 conversion  , create your own exotic GT , mine has A/C , power on demand , killer looks, handles like it's on rail  and parts are at the NAPA / Ebay store. 

[RebekahsZ]

Please only get an S30 if you are in for the long-haul.  This probably doesn't apply to you, but I am very concerned about the z-car rat rod phenomenon.  This site recognizes a certain reverence for the 240z, 260z and 280z and there is a growing trend to treat these cars like total crap.  So many Z-car projects start and don't get finished, which results in a partially disassembled car that, while once rebuildable, is now totally destroyed and only good for the crusher. If you start, please finish.  I cried real tears when I cut the tranny mount out of my Z for the LS swap, and seeing the old L24 get carted away was like watching a funeral procession.  I felt every slice of the saw when I cut out my rear fenders for flares and I still haven't had the heart to do my front fender flares. If you don't have an irrational PASSION for z-cars, please get something else-they are not the BEST platform for a performance car.  Dollar for dollar, I really don't think you can beat a late '80s/early '90s Mustang.  They are great drag cars, decent autocross cars and formidable road racing cars (IRS isn't nearly as important as we like to think).  There are tons of them around for super cheap, the aftermarket support is incredible, and the rust-proofing from the factory seems to be very good.  If I didn't have a passion for Z-cars dating back to about the 6th grade, I would be a Mustang man all the way for shear practicality.  That being said, I expect my little Z-car to be item #1 of my estate auction after I am gone.

[7ur7le]

Thank you all! It’s awesome to see both the strengths and weakness of the Z. It is a very hard choice to make because both cars are great!

After hearing this input I think a 240z is something that would still fit my lifestyle and be tons of fun (even with its downfalls).  I always understood that owning a Z car isn’t necessarily a walk in the part, but it’s a worth exactly what is put in to it.

I’m not going to scratch the Z of my list. I will look for one that is in decent conditions and for a fair price. Once in person with either the e30 or 240z of my choice, hopefully I can come to a decision.  I think the e30 may be a bit better for me, but I want to keep exploring the market to see if I find a great Z.

 

Thank you all for your help! You guys have a great community and beautiful cars!

[Six_Shooter]

Small relevance to this, in regards to rust on an S30. 

 

I live in Southern Ontario Canada, where salt is used during the winter, and completely eats cars away.So finding a solid S30 around here was nearly impossible. I looked at a few and have even looked since I bought my car, and then bought a couple as parts cars... Anyway. I decided that I would need one from the states, expecting it to be southern states, it turned out that my car came from Richland Washington, which IIRC is not far from you. While my car was not rust free, it was a very solid car, with only a couple very small holes in the floor, structurally. The worst of it is on the rear roof and hatch of the car, where there was a Landau top installed probably when new. If it wasn't for this the car would look much better. I plan to replace these panels and have donor panels to go in, just haven't got around to doing it yet.

 

My reason for posting this is that you may be able to find something solid or fairly solid in your area, because IIRC sand is used in Washington, which has less effect on metals than salt does.

When I was looking for a project car, similar to you FC RX-7s were also on my list, but had a harder time finding solid cars to start with,even when searching online. I probably didn't try real hard though because the 240Z was just so much sexier.

 

I haven't regretted my choice one bit.

 

Other cars that were on my list:

510

H-body Sunbird ('70's RWD)

Vega

Fiero

[JMortensen]

I tend to enjoy a better handling car even if a few horses are lost.

Considered a Miata? Handle great, minimal investment to get on the track, the path from here to there is well worn so parts are cheap and available, endless potential if you get tired of the lack of power later (s/c, turbo, v8 swaps, exocet, etc). If you stick it in a wall it's not the end of the world either.

[seattlejester]

I can actually offer specific insight as well. 

 

I have a 240z, and one of my best friends from high school just bought an 325i E30 a couple months ago.

 

I bought mine locally for 500$ and spent the last two years building the body a bit, and this last year I finished putting an engine swap in. All in around 20k or so.

 

Things I have done:

New floors, frame rails, battery tray area, chassis stiffening, roll bar

New bushings, shocks, springs, ball joints, camber plates, wheels, tires

New seats, gauges, dash

Newer engine (37k miles), ECU, ignition, etc

Bigger brakes, new lines, hydro brake

 

Essentially everything has been gone over, I had it down to the bare chassis. The ride is nice, and the boost is nice, manual is nice, everything is pretty pleasant. I am just starting to trust it as I have been going over and replacing some crummy wiring and some redundant relays etc. It starts each time and I am just about getting ready to enjoy it. It still has a lot of potential left untapped, but right now it is high enough where the I am falling short.

 

My friend drove down to portland and purchased his car for $4500, and we have been repairing the small faults over the weekends. All in he is around 9k or so.

 

He has done:

New bushings, strut tops, ball joints, control arms, drive shaft

Z3 steering rack

Wheels, tires

Fluids all around

New brake pads and rotors

Exhaust

 

His car handles almost mind-blowingly well. Just replacing some of the older parts and it runs quiet, smooth, everything feels tight, and the fast turning z3 power steering rack is glorious. I drove it the other day and it just would not let go on the twisties, then he drove it and I had a sore elbow from holding on so tightly.

 

The main difference is knowledge and price. As I had such a cheap chassis to work with, I had no problem cutting out rusting parts and using parts from other cars etc to improve my car over all, through the process I have learned a ton of things. You have to understand my friend was the guy that got me into cars in the past, I was scared to jack my car up by myself back then, so I feel I have come a long way. 

 

I also learned how to look for information I needed and formulate my own opinions given the multiple paths to accomplish the same task. Those skills have become the best tools, as well as the physical tools in my arsenal from having done everything. One of the reasons that his project is going well is that if needed he can ask about something or request my help. His exhaust for example, I welded it together and supplied the muffler from my old exhaust. To remove the old bushings he was trying to use a drill on the rubber bits and then a press. I showed him the datsun way of lighting the bushing on fire and then using a sawzall to cut the sleeve and bend it towards the center.

 

So if you want to really dive into a project car, I would say the Z is a good choice. It is fairly cheap to get started and there are lots of paths available for what you want to do with it, you can go from cookie cutter to extreme, to uncharted territories. If you want a car to drive, the E30 is really a good choice. It too has options, although maybe not as varied, but definitely a good chassis. It definitely has more creature comforts of AC, power steering, ABS, etc.

 

He's planning on boosting his car over the winter and doing suspension mods, and I am planning on upping the boost, tuning and doing suspension mods, so we should be in the same ball park, budget and power wise for a fair comparison in the future.

[7ur7le]

Nice to know that a Z would survive here in Washington!

As for a Miata, I have considered it. It is a great track car and fun car overall (I've heard). Maybe I can't bring myself to getting a Miata because I owned an s2000 a few years back and knowing that the Miata is a much small and less aggressive car (stock) makes it a bit unappealing. When I owned my s2000, I also realized that I wasn’t a big fan a ragtops.

Seattlejester,

you bring an interesting point. I have had a few project cars over the years and really enjoyed them. Recently I haven’t had a project car in such a long time (due to school, money, etc.) I really miss having something to work on; however I remember how expensive projects cars are. I want to meet somewhere in the middle. I’d like something that I can have a great time driving and working on, but not spend the big bucks. Even though the E30 might be a bit cheaper all around, I think a 240/280z makes more of an interesting project. I’ll have to scout around a hopefully I can find a solid deal.

[PLATA]

^^^ Beware , the Z addiction is hard core and the cure is not yet found 

[seattlejester]

^Truth

 

I have always enjoyed the build process much more then the end product in all my hobbies.

 

I would take a grain of salt with what people consider rust free around here. When I bought my car, the seller said the only reason he was selling it instead of cutting it apart was that the frame rails and floor weren't eaten through (rust free). Turns out it was aluminum foil thick and a couple taps with a screw driver and I had a colander.

 

Depending on your tendencies it can definitely be something you work on during weekends over a couple of years, or if you want you can throw a bunch of time and money at it until it is finished. If you don't want something that will sit, then buy one that has had a bit of work (rust fixed, suspension updated, new bearings, etc) and you will be far ahead. If you want to become very intimate with the car I believe jon has a car for sale that could really use a bit of everything. If welding isn't your thing, having a car transported from california or arizona wouldn't be a bad idea.

[JMortensen]

The 70 I'm selling isn't a good car. It's a good chassis, and it needs a pass floor pan (or fairly good size hole patched and dent fixed). It's missing so much stuff that it's best for a person who has a 70 or 71 that is a rustbucket, so that person can transfer over all of the missing parts to my shell. 

 

Nobody seems to want the shell though, so next move is to strip it and try to sell the shell with the shortblock (for someone who wants a #'s matching early car). If that doesn't work, I'm going to chop it up and sell the quarters, etc. I hate to do that, but I don't want to keep it.

[Pharaohabq]

If you can get classic car insurance the Z may be a lot cheaper to insure. Even if you modify it.  15K isn't a bad budget for a Z. but once you get into it, it's easy to spend and spend on a Z, since there's a lot you can do with it.  Before you buy one, take a look at LOTS of Z pictures and really decide what you like and want you want to have then adjust your budget accordingly. That might give you a better idea of what a Z really costs these days.

[seattlejester]

^Oh that is a good point. Classic insurance for my car from grundy was very easy to get with lots of coverage at a pretty killer rate. My friend on the other hand will not qualify for classic even when his car turns 25 due to milage and commonality. 

 

Jon: gotcha, thought I would throw it out there, if you end up parting it out please let me know, I have been searching for some alignment tabs for the doors for quite a while.

[JMortensen]

It's looking like it's going to get parted out. Need the clutch parts that I'm missing to put the V8 in the XP car, then I can pull this one into the shop and start stripping it down. Got a bunch of people asking for stuff and I'll try to get back to everyone who asked, but keep your eyes open for the parts for sale ad because I might miss a few.