123 Ignition distributor?

[Sandy455]

Just wondering if anyone's used the new 123igntion distributor on an L24?  I'm running triple Weber 40s with an E88 head.  Timing's always been a bit of an issue.  Seems like a digital device I could tune via blue tooth on an iPhone app would be a game-changer.  Thanks for your input.

[NewZed]

Quite a few people on classiczcars.com are using it.  Not to send a Hybridz member away but that's where the 123 action is.

[Sandy455]

1 hour ago, NewZed said:

Quite a few people on classiczcars.com are using it.  Not to send a Hybridz member away but that's where the 123 action is.

 

Interesting.  Why is that?  People here don't like the system?  Seems like there'd be more people here running Webers and Mikunis who could use the additional tuning information the 123 system delivers. But thanks for the info.  I posted an inquiry on classiczcars.com too. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Sandy455

[seattlejester]

I feel like people would consider megasquirt at that price point. MS2 pre-built from DIY is like $450 or something. You can build it yourself for under $300 if I remember and it will do more than an ignition system could do on its own. If I was set on running carbs I would get like a megajolt type setup and run EDIS or something and have a system under $250.

 

If you are more of a purist though and want to keep things looking stock while getting a bit of an edge with controllable timing you might consider this over other options. The fine gents over there seem to be more of that category, preserve and improve. 

[BJSZED]

Something else to consider ? Looked into it awhile back. Seemed to get good reviews by users. https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2013.htm

 

[Ereschkigal]

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/127119-123ignition-timing-maps-for-40dcoes/

[Sandy455]

10 hours ago, Ereschkigal said:

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/127119-123ignition-timing-maps-for-40dcoes/

Thanks.  Very helpful.

[Leon]

I've got one. Love it for the tuneability along with retaining old-school looks. My previous Z had Webers + Megajolt which is objectively a better system but I wanted to keep this one period-looking.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Leon
added link

[Sandy455]

4 minutes ago, Leon said:

I've got one. Love it for the tuneability along with retaining old-school looks. My previous Z had Webers + Megajolt which is objectively a better system but I wanted to keep this one period-looking.

 

 

A few people have suggested the Megajolt as a lower cost alternative.  I like the look and overall convenience of the 123.  Please tell me what you see as the big pluses the Megajolt has over the 123 besides the lower cost.  Thanks!

[Leon]

3 hours ago, Sandy455 said:

A few people have suggested the Megajolt as a lower cost alternative.  I like the look and overall convenience of the 123.  Please tell me what you see as the big pluses the Megajolt has over the 123 besides the lower cost.  Thanks!

 

The MJ is crank-triggered thus more accurate. It also uses a coil pack which enables higher RPM coil stability. There is a larger tuning window with MJ as it gives you a 3D map whereas the 123 only let's you program in individual 2D mechanical advance and vacuum advance curves. That's my biggest gripe with the 123, they should just give you a map instead of dumbing down their tech.

 

With that said, the 123 looks the part and I don't have to mount the extra bits that you would with the MJ.

[ldickinson78247]

Looking to add FAST I6 ignition box to the 123 distributor.  Anyone have a working wiring diagram?  Help appreciated.

[munters]

When you buy the Fast Ignition box you will have a install Manual, I made it exactly the way they say it and it works.

The only thing I added was the tacho Adapter from MSD (I already had its I think 8920)

But If I remember correctly, "distributer to the Coil" goes to "FAST from Distributor" and "FAST to coil" goes "to coil". 

Edited October 3, 2018 by munters

[wenzlern]

Hi,

 

Unfortunately I can not recommend the 123Ignition. As nice as the Bluetooth tunability is, if something should go wrong you are on your own it seems (depending on the local distributor). Mine failed within 40km and I have been told straight out that it is user error, with something that is not even listed in their manual as to take special caution. Apparently I mounted the distributor cap not perfectly straight from the top, causing the carbon pin in the center to break. Running the ignition like this the apparently means that the 'current will find a way and discharges through the base, damaging the electronics'. To me their explanation does not make sense, and I have been unable to get a technical explanation why my supposed user error should destroy the electronics either by email or phone. This has now been the case with the German distributor (123ignition.de) and the direct contact at the headquarters (albertronic). The call ended with me being told that I am: "One of those customers that can not be satisfied, even if it runs perfectly you start worrying about wear on the rotor and the cap". Over the lifetime of the ignition this connection will break eventually, it is designed like this with the wear items cap & rotor. To my best knowledge I have to assume from what they say, that if your rotor or cap fails, the electronic gets busted as well. To be fair, this is not what I actually think. I am pretty sure the electronic survives this and I have a faulty unit from manufacturing, which they refuse to replace on warranty.

 

In any case, everyone can make up their own mind according to the emails below:

 

Quote

Dear 123ignition Sales,My dealer (123ignition.de) was unable or unwilling to help with my warranty request, and I have been told by them to write directly to the manufacturer. I am therefore writing to the only main manufacturer email I could find. Please redirect this email to the appropriate person in your organisation.

 

This spring, just before the Covid-19 lock down I ordered a 123Tune+ 6 with matching coil and a set of spare cap and rotor. Due to the lock down I was only able to actually get and install the ignition until some months later. Once in, it fired right up and I could tune the car by Bluetooth as intended. However, on the second drive (roughly 40km with the new ignition) things started to act up. I took a short drive of ~15min, parked and when I wanted to leave again just a few minutes later it would start and then slowly die down. After finding nothing wrong the car started again once it was cooled down and I managed to drive it back home, although the engine had to be kept on gas constantly to not die and didn't run right. I put it back in the garage and a week later, upon pulling the cap I realized that the center electrode had broken off. Since I had a spare I put this on and the car started again. Thinking that I have found the error I went for a drive again only to get the same issue after ~15min and finally getting stuck with no engine in the middle of the city. The time to failure coincides quite well with the time my car takes to warm up. While the first time round when the error happened it would still fire occasionally when cranking again, but not start, this time there was no spark whatsoever anymore. Luckily I had my mechanical setup still in the car and after swapping it back in on the side of the road I could drive home again. I only swapped in ignition and coil to the old setup and did not change anything else and it started on the first crank, hence the failure is due to the new setup. The most logical conclusion from the symptoms for me is that the ignition failed as soon as the engine got up to temperature, with a production failure the most likely to me for this.

 

I bought this ignition at your official distributor for Germany (123ignition.de), and approached them with the problem as described above (the transcript of our conversation in German is attached). They swiftly replied with the following: "The center electrode can only break if the cap is not properly seated on the ignition, which is a user error. The failure of the ignition is a resulting error, as the current will find another way then the center electrode and thus damage the electronics. You can send in the ignition and we will inspect and repair it at your cost".

 

Now I understand enough about electrics to be pretty certain that none of the above makes any sense. First off, I know that I put the cap on correctly and I doubt the car would run fine for the first 40km if not. The center electrode was broken, but still seated in the cap. It fell out when I took off the cap. In that case, when it ran, the current is still going through the center electrode, albeit with an increased resistance due to the fracture (everything else is isolating in this path, so it is by far the most likely path for the current, even cracked). Second, if the failure of the center electrode leads to the damage of the electronics in the base, due to the current  'finding another path' it would, in my opinion, constitute a mayor safety issue, as this would mean that the coil discharges through the cap with all the associated risks when touching it. Third, both the cap and the rotor are consumable parts, hence why they are replaceable and sold as spares by your own shop. If the failure of the normal conducting path (coil lead, cap, rotor, cap, ignition lead) leads to the failure of the ignition there is a mayor design problem with your product, as this fault can and will happen several times over the life of the ignition. You can imagine that I find it hard to believe that there is any such grave safety or design fault. Hence, the only explanation to me is still a manufacturing defect.

 

Your customer support in Germany has been unhelpful at best and unfriendly at worst. The email with the above argument, asking for a proper technical explanation to the described issues, has been ignored until I threatened to escalate it to you. The answer to that was: "Please do escalate this to the manufacturer", which I am now doing.

 

I have paid over 500 Euro for your product, and the least I am expecting is a decent customer service and a sound technical explanation, should this really be a user error. Until such an explanation, I am requesting either a warranty replacement, or, as I prefer after my negative experience, a full refund.

 

Regards,

xxx

 

 

Answer:

 

Quote

Hi xxx,

I have read your comment.

So you broke the carbon stift twice and you suggest that our product is shit.

Am I correct?

Can you send me a photo of the product without the Cap mounted and a photo of both Caps?

Met vriendelijke groet/Best regards/Mit Freundlichen Grüßen,

yyy

 

After that mail I phoned the number in the signature and had a very fruitless call. I will now swallow the loss and leave it at that.

 

Best,

Nils

[Sandy455]

5 hours ago, wenzlern said:

Hi,

 

Unfortunately I can not recommend the 123Ignition. As nice as the Bluetooth tunability is, if something should go wrong you are on your own it seems (depending on the local distributor). Mine failed within 40km and I have been told straight out that it is user error, with something that is not even listed in their manual as to take special caution. Apparently I mounted the distributor cap not perfectly straight from the top, causing the carbon pin in the center to break. Running the ignition like this the apparently means that the 'current will find a way and discharges through the base, damaging the electronics'. To me their explanation does not make sense, and I have been unable to get a technical explanation why my supposed user error should destroy the electronics either by email or phone. This has now been the case with the German distributor (123ignition.de) and the direct contact at the headquarters (albertronic). The call ended with me being told that I am: "One of those customers that can not be satisfied, even if it runs perfectly you start worrying about wear on the rotor and the cap". Over the lifetime of the ignition this connection will break eventually, it is designed like this with the wear items cap & rotor. To my best knowledge I have to assume from what they say, that if your rotor or cap fails, the electronic gets busted as well. To be fair, this is not what I actually think. I am pretty sure the electronic survives this and I have a faulty unit from manufacturing, which they refuse to replace on warranty.

 

In any case, everyone can make up their own mind according to the emails below:

 

 

 

Answer:

 

 

After that mail I phoned the number in the signature and had a very fruitless call. I will now swallow the loss and leave it at that.

 

Best,

Nils

 

Wow.  Thank you for sharing this.  I will definitely steer clear of it.  Sorry for your loss.

[Maritimer]

I've got a Bluetooth one I've rolled over the trip odometer on and it's definitely been a night and day difference between it and the ignitor I used to run. The accuracy and user experience are a joy, setting timing and curves without needed to mess with springs is a wonderful experience. It's definitely a bit of a gimmick piece, high price and probably not as effective as a megajolt, but definitely a fun toy to show off and retains the old engine bay look. You'll probably never be able to justify the cost or performance vs. a coil-on-plug solution, but it is a very cool plug and play part that doesn't need a shopping cart of parts and a wiring harness to complete. Reliability has been wonderful on the parts made by 123, but I've heard and nearly experienced horror stories of these things. You will need to make some minor mods for reliability.

 

Personally ran mine with a flamethrower coil at 1.5ohms and the cap and rotor that came with it. While the distributor itself is a wonderful piece of kit, the cap and rotor supplied with it (Beru units I believe) are not the best quality. These are easy components to replace with a good Bosch cap, but the cap is definitely easy to reverse or misalign. The cap is located with a bolt-on tab which doesn't fit all reproduction caps well. While the manual and support suggest a 1.5ohm coil, the rotor that comes with the kit will burn itself out with one of these units. Easy to fix by drilling out the rotor and soldering in some thick solid-core wire, you can then fill it with JB weld for an OEM "Potted" look, but I will not guarantee it lasts! I've heard the carbon cap in the button may burn up from this same issue, personally haven't seen this yet, but I could see the worn button coming out as mentioned earlier.

 

Be warned the cap and rotor are Porsche parts and come with the great allure of being  a bother to locate if you live in the sticks. Rotor can be sourced cheaply as a volkswagen piece if you want to make the aforementioned mod on a 5$ not 15$ part. The American distributor sells a pre-modded one for 45$ but I found it a satisfying afternoon project.

 

If you've got the money, some technical know-how and want to stick with the carbs I'd say go for it. if you want to go EFI in the future it's probably an expensive side-step.