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280Z-LS3

280Z build w/ LS3 and 2015 Mustang spindles/8.8

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It is a tedious process, isn't it?  Frustrating and repetitive as hell...

 

What worked best for me was to attack the visible seam sealer with a wire wheel in a grinder, then switch to an assortment of dental picks and small screw drivers, and if none of that worked, I burned it out.  I still wound up with a lot of contaminated welds to deal with.  You also have to be very careful down the road when prepping the chassis for painting to make sure all the bare metal is protected from rust with epoxy and seam sealer.  Otherwise the process of stitch welding can introduce a lot of new paths to corrosion.

 

Looks like you are doing a good job with it.

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12 hours ago, Ironhead said:

Otherwise the process of stitch welding can introduce a lot of new paths to corrosion.

 

Ironhead, totally agree.  My car barn is drafty so the humidity tracks with outside levels.  Hopefully we start getting rain soon here in CA to help with fires.  After all the seam welding is competed I am going to treat/brush with Tamco Mono Coat 1K rust encapsulator, a similar product to what you used, then scuff before seam sealer and paint. I would not be surprised if all the newer rust encapsulator products on the market use similar water cured urethane technology. 

 

How did you treat burnt paint on the back side of the panels in the cavity forward of wheel wells?  Because of the long lasting strong smell of body wax don't know if it's a good choice for cavities with openings leading to interior cabin.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, 280Z-LS3 said:

How did you treat burnt paint on the back side of the panels in the cavity forward of wheel wells?  Because of the long lasting strong smell of body wax don't know if it's a good choice for cavities with openings leading to interior cabin.

 

I've been pondering all this for the length of the build.  I haven't treated anything yet, as I am still finishing painting....

 

First of all, I have one of those spray guns with the spray head at the end of a 14" wand, so I can get paint in some pretty tight places.  The problem is, since it doesn't run into cracks and crevices, I figure it is still only marginally effective.  You aren't going to get serious rust problems on most open sections of unpainted sheet metal...you would just get surface rust.  Problems start in the lower pinch welds and other places where water can just accumulate and remain there.  How can you possibly treat those areas other than using wax?

 

So, the only conclusion I keep coming to is cavity wax, smell or no smell.  There are several places where spraying paint simply isn't an option, and cavity wax is about the only solution on the market.  I am aware of the Eastwood "inner frame rail" paint, but it has pretty mediocre reviews, and I don't see how it can possibly be as effective as cavity wax.

 

For example, I am positive I burned any finish off the inside of the frame rails while welding on the Bad Dog rails.  I don't see how that can be covered except by a runny product like the cavity wax.

 

I know OEM repair specs call for the application of cavity wax in all sorts of places that could vent into the passenger compartment, so I imagine (hope?) that the smell fades after some reasonable period of time....

 

Regarding the Tamco Mono Coat, I agree with you.  I read about it, and they make the point of saying it is "nothing like POR-15", but in every way, is sounds exactly like POR-15....LOL.  I'm sure there are only a limited number of chemistry solutions for a reasonable price for problems like treating rusted metal.  I wager Rust Bullet is pretty much the same stuff as well.

 

I've overcoated nearly all of the Rust Bullet I used, first with epoxy, then seam sealer, then epoxy again, single stage paint, Lizard Skin, Raptor liner.  I haven't encountered any problems with lifting or incompatibilities.

Edited by Ironhead

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17 hours ago, Ironhead said:

 

I've overcoated nearly all of the Rust Bullet I used, first with epoxy, then seam sealer, then epoxy again, single stage paint, Lizard Skin, Raptor liner

 

For under coating will be using the Raptor liner as well, gets the best reviews.  You have me rethinking interior sound deadening material.  For past builds used Noico 80 mil foil backed butyl which is hefty at 0.7lbs/sq.ft.   Would be nice to use something that does not have such a weight penalty and easier to install.

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6 hours ago, 280Z-LS3 said:

 

For under coating will be using the Raptor liner as well, gets the best reviews.  You have me rethinking interior sound deadening material.  For past builds used Noico 80 mil foil backed butyl which is hefty at 0.7lbs/sq.ft.   Would be nice to use something that does not have such a weight penalty and easier to install.

 

The Lizard Skin sound control is heavy.  You pick up a gallon can of that stuff and you swear it is made of lead.  I would agree it is "easy" to install, but the prep beforehand (masking) is an absolute MoFo.  I used right around two gallons doing the whole car.

 

It also doesn't make the car "quiet"....it just changes the general ambiance from that of a tin can to more of a fiberglass can...if that makes sense.

Edited by Ironhead

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I have lizard skin sound control and ceramic in mine. Definitely helps deaden the panels and reduces resonance of big flat panels dramatically, but it won't be "quiet" per se. Not like even modern commuter cars at least.

For that you'd need carpet at a minimum on top of it and possibly foam materials. I now have Dynamat on top of lizard skin and even that isn't as quiet as I want. if I was doing things again  (weight goals aside) I'd do Lizard skin ceramic to get full coverage against heat, top it with dynamat at least on large flat areas, then some closed cell foam on the floors on under carpet. 

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From my experience and research achieving large amount of noise reduction requires mass to absorb the sound waves.  MLV sheets (mass loaded vinyl) applied on top of products mentioned above is the best way to tackle noise at the expense of adding literally like 100 lbs to your car.  Already concerned with the added weight of primary layers like spray on liner and/or butyl sheets so will not be adding MLV. 

 

Does the Lizard Skin Ceramic work better than the foil on the butyl sheets?  Foil reflects a fair amount of IR radiation, does the ceramic stuff as well?

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2 hours ago, 280Z-LS3 said:

 

Does the Lizard Skin Ceramic work better than the foil on the butyl sheets?  Foil reflects a fair amount of IR radiation, does the ceramic stuff as well?

 

I had just the ceramic and sound control on before I painted (no dynamat), and I drove from Seattle area to northern Utah and back in the middle of July. Was ALMOST better to have windows up the whole time until greenhouse affect started taking place and I rolled them down for circulation in Idaho after 6-8hrs of driving when it got to the hottest part of the day. Don't have any HVAC even now and it aside from a tiny bit of sweat on my brow it was dramatically better than I expected. Far more impressed with it's effect on heat than I was with sound, but if you're running resonators like I now am in my L28's exhaust, most of the noise is just from wind or poor aero. 

 

If you're concerned about weight and just want to get away from droniness and want to be able to have a normal conversation without raising your voice noticeably, I would recommend ceramic coating for heat, then a couple decent coats of their sound control OR dynamat, but not both, along with resonators. If you apply it properly in key areas that should take care of most issues. I will say adding a resonator was probably more noticeable than adding the dynamat on top of already having Lizard Skin SC, at least in the RPM ranges I was getting drone. 

 

If I'd had the resonator, and all my seals properly installed on the drive back, along with AC, it honesty would have been about as pleasant as you can get for a 13 hour drive. 

EDIT: Quick notes on weight, Lizard Skin ceramic control, pound for pound, will be more effective against heat than something like Dynamat. As far as sound goes, the Dynamat "megapak" shipping weight is a bit over 30 lbs, and I think the dry weight of 2 gallons of Lizard Skin Sound Control is somewhere in the 20's. Having experience with both, I think unless you're going for about 3 gallons of it, Dynamat will be the more effective sound deadener for the weight. I did 2 gallons of Ceramic, 2 of SC, and the Dynamat Megapak. Probably added 60-70 lbs total, but I also dropped however many pounds the original tar stuff weighs, on top of losing the heavy bumpers, emissions stuff, and moving to Vintage Air which weighs less than just the OEM fan unit, on top of getting rid of dated electronics/vacuum canister. I'd say I'm still ahead as far as weight is concerned. 

Edited by Zetsaz

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A bit of Googling revealed on Jalopy Journal the active ingredient in Lizard Skin Ceramic is micro glass spheres that can be bought at Aircraft Spruce for $10/lbs .  Some guy on there says to just add to paint.  Interesting, may buy a bag to satisfy curiosity...

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8 hours ago, 280Z-LS3 said:

A bit of Googling revealed on Jalopy Journal the active ingredient in Lizard Skin Ceramic is micro glass spheres that can be bought at Aircraft Spruce for $10/lbs .  Some guy on there says to just add to paint.  Interesting, may buy a bag to satisfy curiosity...


I've seen the exact Jalopy thread you're taking about probably, and other posts I've seen make me remain skeptical

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Light at the end of the body stitch welding tunnel!

Competed most of the stitch welding and had a question as to whether or not to weld the to halves of the wheel well from the tire side and also along the floor pan to rocker panel from under the car.  While waiting the "yes" answer to that question I moved on to finish fabricating the rear frame connectors.  I spent some time a few weeks ago making some nice card board templates then transferred them to 12 gauge sheet metal.  I cut them out and used the DIY press brake to form the sides.

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Damn, they looked good!  However, after bending the tops to close the gap it became apparent both connectors had a twist totally ruining the fit.  I can only surmise the flexible cardboard used allowed twist that I did not notice.  Good idea but poor execution...

 

I cut off the portion that slips over the Bad Dog frame rails, bent up another two channels and proceeded to slowly grind away at the ruff piece.  Cutting a 3D piece to fit into a 3D irregular cavity is difficult, exactly what I was trying to avoid with the templates.  A few hours later I had one side done.  Not looking forward to spending that amount of time for the second a thought came to me.  Call it a moment of clarity, epiphany or just pure genius, lol.  The car is symmetrical along the rear frame rail so I traced the finished connector on the blank as a mirror image and presto, it gave me the needed shape with just some minor grinding.

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I added a small plate to the top of the rear frame rail to help strengthen the connector to rail connection.

 

Purchased a few "spray outs", small 2oz cans of base from Tamco in 6 colors (Sangria, Rock-It Red, Blood Diamond Red, British Racing Green, Sinister Red and Green)  I only used black base speed shapes so most came out really dark.  I did 3 and 4 coats of base to see if an added coat was needed and hit them with some old SPI clear from last build.  I think 2 coats could be sufficient so will spray those out again on white, gray and black bases to see if I can lighten up the darker colors.  I like reds dark so no need to re-spray those.  Not going to mess with metallic paint because I can see differences is how the flake layed down with the Blood Diamond Red on a small speed shape and can only imagine how badly I would screw up a whole car.  I am not the best painter...

 

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My favorites are Sangria and British Racing Green.  The green needs to be on grey or slightly tinted green base to reduce darkness.  Going to test a few more colors before I make the final choice.  The Sinister colors would make great racing stripe or accent paint.

 

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Edited by 280Z-LS3

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Swapped out the stock Ford pinion yoke for the Yukon 41040 yoke (1993 Ford F250) which uses the large 1350 u-joint.

I followed the instructions for M-4851-M8A Super 8.8 IRS Mustang Automatic Pinion Flange Kit that can found on Performanceparts.ford.com.

 

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Finished the weld in camber plates.  Must admit I agonized over the installation spending a long time getting the plates square to centerline of car and, for the fronts, the same distance from firewall.  The fore/aft placement of the rears were determined by center of strut hole on top.  I initially used the midpoint between the frame rails and mustache bar studs for car centerline.  I could not get the front camber plates both square and equal distance from fire wall.  Switched to using the mid point between the front and rear strut towers and things came into alignment much better.  Questioning the effort I made to get the plates aligned so accurately (within 1-2 mm) given this is a mass produced 45 year old car known for a flexible chassis.  Well, at least I can say it was done accurately and best to my ability.

 

Started with rears.  My 75 has the thin top sheet metal that was removed exposing the larger gauge flat top.

 

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I then placed a piece of aluminum angle iron across top to fit plates perpendicular to car centerline.

 

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Did not have to fight seam sealer contaminating welds so they welded up nice.

 

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The fronts were done in a similar fashion as rears.  

 

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Darn seam sealer reared it's ugly head making the welds less visually appealing.  Tuned the weld up with an abrasive disc and will bondo the remaining minor imperfections before paint.

 

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Edited by 280Z-LS3

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Really, really phenomenal job here man! Learning a ton from you, and very impressed with your attention to detail and methodical approach.

 

Im going to be mating the super 8.8 to my L28et, so I only need to worry about one alignment angle, not both simultaneously. I was going to cut a plate to mate to the 8.8 yolk with a laser level mounted flush. That way, I can shim the diff until the laser points dead straight into my tranny rear seal. It’s just a hair brained idea. Hope it works! 

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Thanks for the kind words, held keep me encouraged...

 

8 hours ago, AydinZ71 said:

shim the diff until the laser points dead straight into my tranny rear seal

 

AndinZ71, theoretically the engine/tranny downward angle and pinion up angle should be equal.  For example, if engine/trans points down 2 degrees the pinion should point up 2 degrees.  Cars with less than perfect alignment run without issue and are even purposefully built unequal such as rear leaf spring cars to compensate for flex upon acceleration.  Having both at zero degrees is not recommended either because then the u-joints don't spin thus placing constant load on a few needle bearings.  Check out this cool video demonstrating the concept.

 

https://shiftsst.com/blog/post/driveline-angles.html

 

Today's task is getting the 8.8 back into car and dialing in pinion angle, shooting for around 2 degrees.  Then it's off to fabbing up the engine and trans mounts.

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