Jersey Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Guys, i need a few ideas bounced off me. I have nothing left. Put in the new ACT PP & clutch last night. All went smooth as normal right up until the point when i wanted it to disengage. I had to put the pedal ALL THE WAY to the floor to just get it in gear. This was a standard clutch install, nothing special, just like i've done probably 20-30 times thoughout my life. I just dont get it. Flywheel perfect, clutch plate on correctly (only one way it can), PP bolted up to flywheel correctly, T.O. bearing installed the right way and slides easily, never changed the T.O. bearing collar, release arm on it's pivot point, T5 splined right in the new ACT clutch and slid right into pilot bushing, bolted up easily...i mean, normal install, everything went smooth. What i did notice is that it takes A LOT more force on the pedal to disengage, and the pressure just increases as you get closer to the firewall with the pedal...almost like i'm bending the fingers on the PP but it's not releasing for some reason. I understnd it's a much stronger PP but, i wouldn't want to be caught in traffic with this thing!!! And other competition PP's i've installed and ran don't feel this tough. I bled the slave cylinder, watched the arm move from underneath and it's moves a good distance, at least as far as it did before with the stock clutch that disengaged fine. I even drained everything to make sure there wasn't any kind of restriction in the clutch line somewhere. Nope. I have the pedal adjusted right now without one bit of freeplay and i know the TO bearing is resting on the PP fingers at pedal rest. I also know that as soon as you start pressing the pedal, the slave cyl starts moving and has a good long throw. It really feels like i'm bending those clutch fingers and it's not disengaging like there's something caught between the stationary part of the PP and the part that gets drawn in when disengaging. I'm all out of ideas except to rip it all apart again tonight and look around. If it happens to be a bad PP, i probably wouldn't be able to tell anyway since i have no way to check it out of the car. And i know ACT is a good brand and wouldn't think it was the product but, i'm really out of ideas. Anyone with a similar problem ever or is just me having BAD LUCK this month? Did i miss something? I even pulled the FSM out last night around 3:30am just to see if something popped out at me, nothing...just a basic clutch install. Any ideas are appreciated. Here's the ACT part #'s i used: N-013 - Pressure Plate NSD007M - Clutch RB016 - Release Bearing All 240mm, bolted to a '82ZXT L28 using the BW-T5. Simple, right? Unreal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Is your flywheel a 2+2 or a turbo? I remember Lockjaw saying something about having to remove material from the inside of the bellhousing to clear some version of a pressure plate, like a Z32TT unit? Maybe I shouldn't second guess here, as I've always used stuff specifically for 280ZX turbo, and have not mixed parts from anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayAreaZT Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 I had a similar problem when I installed my clutch using the same part numbers as you. It was not fully disengaging. I ended up backing out the master cylinder rod a few turns. I also removed the rubber pad that stops the clutch pedal when it is fully depressed for a little bit extra throw. That solved my problem and it's been working fine ever since. As far as driving it in traffic, it's not so bad after you get used to it. I got caught in LA bumper to bumper traffic for about a hour and a half on the way to the MSA show but my leg survived Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody 82 ZXT Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 I had to adjust my clutch pedal also when I put in this latest clutch. I bet if you look into it that will be your proublem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Hey. Thanks for the input. Sleeper - It's a 2+2 flywheel from a '78 280 - it's 240mm like the Turbo's but just has a little more surface area on the inside. Yes, Lockjaw's using a 300ZXTT pressure plate and had to grind ribs on the inside of the T5. I bought the ACT Kit for a '82 280ZXT which the motor and T5 came out of and it all just bolts right up. BayZT - I did adjust the freeplay to zero just to get as much throw as i could, but still no good. Cody - Clutch pedal fully adjusted. I think (hope) i found the problem tonight. I was getting ready to drop the trans and just wanted to double, triple check the slave cylinder again so i had my wife doing some pumping (easy guys) while i watched it. The travel seemed good but i noticed with the increased PP tourqe, the slave was shifting just a little bit when under the new pressure. So i ripped it all apart and realized that the slave isn't extending itself all the way to the end when the pedal is to the floor. I took it apart and it has some rub marks on one side of the piston so i'm wondering if it's binding up when it's bolted to the T5 and not going through it's complete stroke. I'm going to pick up a new SS tomorrow morn and try it. With the stock clutch it may have been fine but possibly with the increased force on it with the HD ACT plate, it's just too weak and worn. I'll write back with my findings. Thanks again guys. Appreciate the time taken to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 im having the same problem except all i did was change a clutch disc. and the master cylinder itself. it feels like there is air in the system but i have bleed with just about every method i know. single man method with a rod on the pedal. then with a vaccuum gun, then i tried just letting it trickle thru the system. then the old trusty 2 man method.. non of which made it any better. I too think my slave cylinder took a crap. even though it only has 1000 or less miles on it. oh well we will see. hope you figure yours out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody 82 ZXT Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Seems, like I've been though several of the local autoparts store rebuilt or new Slave C. I think that if you don't get a good one then the increased pressure of the aftermarket PP kills them not to long after the install. I had forgot about it earlier that I had to change mine out also not long after the clutch install. The car had sat for about 6 months and I guess the new PP killed it. Also for what ever reason the alignment of the old one was less than perfect and That caused the piston to rub on the side of the cyclinder hole wearing it out prematurely also. You can get a rebuild kit and use a brake hone to clean up the cylinder walls if need be. The rebuild kit is 6 bucks or so and a new one from Autozone is soemthing like 14 bucks or so and I think has some sort of warrenty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 It has been my experience that a new clutch, particularily a stouter one will kill a slave cylinder, and usually I replace all that mess at one shot. Kind of like it the clutch master goes, out, might as well replace the slave, because it won't be far behind. Also make sure you use a good high quality fluid. The Castrol is good, but don't ever use that stinking valvoline synthetic. It sucks. Sorry to hear it is giving you fits. It is likely something simple, and I think you are onto the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Also make sure you use a good high quality fluid. The Castrol is good, but don't ever use that stinking valvoline synthetic. It sucks. Okay, I have never used the Valvoline synthetic fluid, but would you care to elaborate on this? Aside from sucking, what is wrong with the Valvoline synthetic brake fluid? The clutch hydraulic system is not a particularly demanding application for any brake fluid that meets DOT3 or DOT4, so if it's unsuitable for a clutch, it would have to be downright dangerous for a brake system. So what gives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Funny, i just got back from picking up a new salve. This morning, i took the old one out and put a big adjustable wrench on the arm out of the T5 and completely disengaged the clutch. It's hard to disengage for the first half of it's throw and then gets to a breaking point and then gets easy, as soon and the fingers get past a certain point so now i know i did everything right on the install. Thanks god because i rolled over it in my head about a thousand times and couldn't figure out what i possibly could have done. So, what i think is, with this new increased tourqe it's taking to get over that hump and fully disengauge the clutch, something from the slave to the master is just not strong enough and or just plain worn out. It was probably fine with the stock PP with less tourqe but now have exceeded it's limit. I'm going out soon to see if it's the slave and will write back with what i find out tonight. Another thing it may be that i thought of was, air caught up in the master and somehow i can't bleed it out without bench bleeding it. We'll see. LockJaw, that's what's driving me nuts, something so simple and it's giving me this much trouble! oh well. Live, learn and tell everyone what you found so hopefully they wont go though all the headache, right? ha. Guys, thanks a bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted June 22, 2003 Author Share Posted June 22, 2003 Welp, replaced the slave with the new one, bled it to heck and still no good. Rebuilt the 2 month old master cylinder, bench bled, in-car bled, still no good. So...just got out of the garage from yanking, once again, the T5, ACT PP/clutch out. And of course, everything seems to be fine and was installed correctly. Cannot see anything visually wrong with the PP but I'm picking up a new one tomorrow and will try that. I have nothing left. I know ACT makes a good product, just hoping this PP was made on a Monday by someone with a huge hangover or something. I'll post back with results tomorrow night or Monday morning. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I also installed an ACT 6 puck and got the same problems... well actually at first there were none to speak of. When I first put the ACT into my ZX, it didn't seem to have any problems at all. Then when I pulled the entire drivetrain and dropped it into my '72, I got the same problem, as far as, I had to push the pedal allllllllll the way down to disengage the clutch at all. I had to adjust the master cylinder threaded rod until it was about one turn away from popping out of the back of the clutch pedal, and also had to completely remove the rubber stopper that sits in front of the pedal, the one that determines the free play at the top of its travel, to even GET any free play in there! I will also second the notion that this clutch has been rough on the slave cylinder, and has had further odd problems which manifest the same symptoms as if there was air bleeding into the system. I've replaced both the master and slave cylinders with no luck. Why this problem plagues the exact same drivetrain in the 240, but never seemed to have any problems in the ZX is a mystery to me, but otherwise everything going on seems to be the norm for this clutch setup. Again Jersey, I see your setup paralleling mine and by the way I emailed ya dude just letting you know to check Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Having never owned a ZX, is the diameter of the clutch master cylinder the same for a ZX with a T5 as an early Z? And for that matter, what about the size of the slave cylinder? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 oh and yeah driving this car in traffic SUCKS..... There have been days where I have limped pretty noticeably from long drives in traffic.... it's funny too most other people cant even get the car to move at all because of how stiff the clutch is, they just stall it. It's so funny when I go to Jiffy Lube or whatever and watch them try to pull it forward, they always just end up letting me do it.... and it's like..... well I warned you Then I get in the car and get it rolling w/o even chattering anymore, I've gotten so good at it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j260z Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 i did an engine swap in a renault once for a friend of the family. he was in a real hurry so he was really putting the pressure on me to get it done. i swapped one engine for another in 2.5 hours. while the engine was out we also replaced the clutch disk. in the rush i put the disk in backwards... i didn't notice because the difference was so minor. when i went to start up the car i ran into the same problem with the clutch not disengaging until the very end of the pedal travel. needless to say it took another 2 hurried hours to flip the disk around. i can't say whether or not that is the problem with your vehicle but it could be a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted June 23, 2003 Author Share Posted June 23, 2003 Thank for the replies guys. So...i picked up the new ACT PP today, slapped it in and yup, same-e-same. It takes the entire pedal travel form top to bottom just to barely get that clutch dis-engage. Exactly how you explain in Bastaad. I have to screw the clutch pedal stop as far as i can in the adjust the MS rod as far as i can out with out it falling out then i can just get it to dis-engage. That's ridiculas with a "performace" clutch. I'm sure it'll hook the trans to the flywheel with no slip because of the increased pressure but, i'll end up losing 3 seconds on my 1/4 just because i'll need to do a full stroke of the clutch in order to shift! I would have never went with ACT if i knew this was the end result, and now, after i've exhausted every option, i know this is how it's suppose to be and is going to be. BUT, i have a solution i'm working on right now...All the master cylinders i know of that i have are 5/8" - the one off of my '73 was, the '78 280 and the '82ZXT and..all the slaves are 3/4". All the same proportion. What i'm going to do is either figure out what uses a 3/4" master that i could use in conjunction with my 3/4" slave or, find a 5/8" slave to use with my 5/8" master. This way, the amount of fluid displaced will be the same so, as much as the pedal moves, so will the slave. Right now, the slave isn't moving far enough, fast enough to dis-engage this ACT plate but it will if you move more fluid in less stroke. Even if the master is slightly larger than the master, that would just make it a shorter stroke to dis-engage it although, you couldn't have the ratio that way too far off or could bury the throwout into the PP fingers or bend the shift fork out of the trans. Would have to put a stop behind the pedal if it travels too fast and too far. Sorry, just thinking out loud. Ok so, I need to find what uses either a 3/4" master cylinder (or a little larger, maybe 13/16" or 7/8") or, a 5/8" slave. Anyone with info on what any of the 300ZX or ZXT's use? Bastaad, we need to shift these things much quicker than using the entire stretch of our leg at the track. I'll sleeve the slave down to 5/8" if i have to but would rather find an easier option for anyone with this same senerio. Thanks for keeping my sanity. I thought i was the only one having the problem using the ACT system on a 240 with the L28ET and the BW. I didn;t read any other posts about this and figured i must have slipped up somewhere. But now, since i did everything at least twice and replaced everything, this is she way it is...for now. We'll fix it. Joe - The only difference between the 280ZXT clutch components and the 240's is the master cylinder rod on the ZXT is shorter than the 240 rod. And i definitly need the longer rod right now because i'm using every inch i can as Bastaad is. Master and slave are the same between all the years i know of ('73, '78, '82ZXT) - 5/8" master - 3/4" slave. Thanks for the ideas. BTW - by hook or by crook, i'm going to Island to run this thing Wednesday night. And i WILL have this clutch working!!! Any plans? J260Z thanks for the thought but the plate could really only go on one way. One the Z's, if you had the plate on backward, I dont think you would be able to bolt down the PP because the raised face of the plate with the springs would ride on the fylwheel face and make the plate hover off the flywheel by about 3/4". You probably wouldn't be able to even start the PP bolts. Thanks anyway. Guys, thanks for all the thoughts and keep bouncing ideas off of me. I will figure this out and running at the track by Wednesday, weather permitting. Need to figure out this clutch thing, make a driveshaft loop, install the fuel pump and take a look at the front brakes, She wont hold while heating them up at the line! ha. O'well, I've got 3 nights to do it. plentyof time right?? Sure. Any ideas on what Z's or other cars use a 3/4" or slightly larger clutch master cylinder or a 5/8" slave cylinder will do the trick, I THINK, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again. Whatta saga! Only me. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 my problem is still here. i didnt change my clutch PP just the Disc. It was installed the right way. i have bench bled both slave and Master but still no disengagment. i think something went wrong in the PP i Have the new Twin plate HKS clutch on the way so im not extremely worried but im really curious to what is causing this. it feels just like alot of air in the system but im positive ive bled everything out and there is no air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 man you guys really have a lot of patience for this stuff. id be on the horn with act throwing a complete tantrum! stuff made for your combo should just bolt right in! forget those guys and thanx for posting all this stuff, helped me make up my mind for which clutch ill end up going to, probably just gonna have one made up for me downtown to my specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Call me strange but I've gotten used to having to push the clutch all the way down... been driving it this way for a year, I guess it does slow down my shifting a bit, and of course when you're in a rush and maybe you dont push it in as far as you should, GRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNND I've done that a couple times but not for a very long time:) I've thought about using some different master cylinder or something like that...... I dunno.... I still love the clutch, grabs like no tommorow, never had it slip on me, even though I'm not pushing astronomical power (170hp and ft lbs at the wheels) it has still impressed me. Oh and Jersey one more thing, I do notice that you dont have to push it down QUITE as far when the car is actually moving, only when putting it into gear to get rolling, but when I'm actually driving I dont think I ever really push the pedal down until it stops.... maybe you'll just get used to it like me... but if you find a way to to fix the problem, diffrent master cylinder or whatnot, I'd definately like to know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Also make sure you use a good high quality fluid. The Castrol is good' date=' but don't ever use that stinking valvoline synthetic. It sucks. [/quote'] Okay, I have never used the Valvoline synthetic fluid, but would you care to elaborate on this? Aside from sucking, what is wrong with the Valvoline synthetic brake fluid? So what gives? Well I ran it in my ZXT for a while after I went thru the whole brake system figuring synthetic was good. I had problems getting the car to stop at the track running in the 1/4, and I had some semi-metalic pads, although nothing special. I was literally running off the end of the track so I sent Topend an email and he told me to junk the synthetic and run the castrol. So I drained it all out, and replaced the fluid, bled it, and it stops much better. I am going to change over to KVR carbon Fiber pads and see if that helps too, I have them just haven't installed them. The difference in stopping is amazing. I would never run that mess again, as I said, it sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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