Moderators and Administrators on a short fuse

[Bob_H]

Again, something like the Corner-Carvers Guide for Newbies

While CC.com is my favorite site, I'm not so sure the folks here are ready for that type of moderation or guidelines. It is harsh, at times unfair, and completely one-sided to the owners of the site. That being said, it serves an excellent purpose and helps keep the riff-raff out of cc.com and most importantly, keeps the posts tech oriented and the quality high.

I have had discussions with some moderators about just this,(in a slightly different context) and it was rejected it as not inline with hybridz.org. However, at the same time they rejected some things I was doing, hybridz as a whole is now doing so maybe it is time to look at a moderation style like that.

I personally think it is a great way to run a site you want to keep pure to its purpose, but many will find it very very offensive.

I think Aaron has a good breakdown on the "consolidation". As for the moderation issue, I'm all for a CC.com style. It offends some, drives off others, but keeps those who really strive to learn and share knowledge w/o wading through crap, i.e. guesses and mistruths.

-Bob

[Synlubes]

I wish to input my $0.02. I have long felt that we have too many forums here at HybridZ. I also think moving to a V8Z only site will do far more harm than good. There is far too much valuable information in some of our members to lose. Look at the engineering prowess of members like Scottie-GNZ and 240Z Turbo; consider the knowledge of members such as JohnC and DAW. Would we want to loose them or others like them because their cars don't meet a standard? We recently had a discussion concerning the "Us vs. Them" attitude toward ricers. Are we not creating that exact attitude between high performance Z enthusiasts?

 

Not wanting to complain without offering a solution' date=' I submit my ideas for a revamp of the technical portion of the site.

 

1. V8Z Forum - This would be a consolidation of the current v8 sites. I think there are common problems with V8 swaps regardless of the engine make, besides there may be something to learn from a different group of people.

 

2. Turbo and Other Engine Forum - This would be a consolidation of the current L6, 6 Cylinder, RB, Turbo forums.

 

3. Misc. and High Tech Forum - These two are a natural fit because they tend to be the catch all for off the wall (albeit very cool) ideas.

 

4. Brakes, Wheels, Suspension, Chassis, and Rearend Forum - This forum is a consolidation of the BWSC forum and the Drivetrain forum. They are also natural fits because transmission questions tend to end up in the engine's forum, and rearend questions tend to fall in the suspension forum.

 

5. Paint, Body, and Kit Car - Can you guess what these consolidate?

 

I think the Ignition, Exhaust, EFI, Carburetor, and Troubleshooting forums should simply go away (with their information moved to a relevant forum) since they are not used frequently, and there topics can easily be covered in the other forums.[/quote']

 

This sounds like it has some "workable solutions" to help everyone get something out of this site and the issues at hand.

[jeromio]

I agree that active moderation will solve alot of problems. I would personally love to have mod powers here. I would judiciously delete any and all posts that showed a clear lack of Searching. I'd also kill crossposts and blatantly misplaced posts (wrong board).

 

Or if that's considered too harsh (or would possibly generate more work deleting the "Where'd my idiotic post go" posts), add an "Idiotic redundant posts" board and just move all those posts there.

 

On CC, the mods will modify idiotic posts with witty (and extreme), seemingly self deprecating (since they still "appear" to be voiced by the poster) comments. Maybe a bit too harsh, but funny, and effective.

 

Since this is already being discussed here in this thread, I would also like to add my personal opinion that the L series boards should stay. I'd hate to miss updates on Thagard's motor for instance or dyno numbers on Coffey's setup. I mean, we do have at least 2 mods here with L6s.

[Mikelly]

I like the discussion here... One of the reasons I threw it out to the masses. You guys can tell by the tone in our recent posts that we're getting pretty fed up with some of the behavior displayed by some (And certainly not the majorety!).

 

I'm not against modified Lseries motors, turbo Lseries motors, or other TYPES of motors, Nissan or otherwise, and our intent was not to make it a strictly V8Z website. The focus and intent is to get back on track with our purpose of this site.

 

We're open for more discussion...

Mike

[clint78z]

I think the moderators here have been fairly tolerant, and have given everyone some slack. However sometimes you are forced to make decisions you don't like to do to keep things on track. The bigger things get the less control we have over them.

 

I used to post on zcar.com all the time when it was me and mabey 15 other members. I had alot of technical conversations with 240zturbo about the turbo L6 it could fill a book. Eventually the site got bigger because there was alot of good info being talked about. I eventually gathered scraps of info on putting an LSD into a 280z. Eventually alot of garbage starting to get posted, and I jumped ship. It was unfortunate to watch some ppl bash the V8z. I am very proud of my L6, however drool over an LS6 as well. I am far from purist and a part from just about every other car. Heck I would use washing machine parts if I could get them for chaep and made my car faster.

 

The technical info on the L6 far above any other website, we just like the V8 boys want to be the fastest pony in the stable. I feel fortunate the the V8 guys let me come here and chat about the L6, yes it feels like home to me. I read all of the boards chev and ford, even dodge. Lot's of the info boils over into the other areas anyhow. It's one stop shopping for serious technical discussion with a little humour every know and again.

 

The problems derive from a small portion of close minded ppl who want an RB or a turbo because it's all the rage. They are not intrested in learning anything on the subject, just something to impress bubbles the girl down the street. Not all ppl are like this, and need a little patience because they don't know where to start. If ppl are being jerks, by all means insert foot to ass.

[Synlubes]

This site has (for me) always had a good feel to it.

I was welcomed here when I started posting and found the content to be great.

I too like the info found on sites like cc.com, but I do not care for their style of moderation and don`t spend alot of time there.

I would hate to see this site go in that direction.

 

You mods and admins keep putting your heads together, I`m sure a good result will be the outcome.

 

Thanks for listening !

[jt1]

I'm all for keeping the L6/RB/alternate forums. There are a lot of good members here who choose not to V8, or are modding their L6 before going to a V8. I think they add a lot to the site, and would hate to see them leave.

 

Forum consolidation? Maybe, but I don't see huge benefits there. Another car board I really like, moparts.org, has only two sections, Tech and general discussion. It works well, but you skim thru a lot of posts you may not have any interest in.

 

cc.com style moderation? While I really enjoy cc, it is not for everyone and a long way from what hybridZ has historically been. ANY slight sign of ignorance there results in being thrown to the piranhas, and they are well fed. I fully support firing both barrels at people who don't search, use poor grammar & spelling, and don't keep their posts concise and to the point. Long winded circular diatribes are a sore point with me, as some of you may have noticed yesterday. I think stepping up the level of moderation here would improve the site, but not to the cc level.

 

This is a great site. Let's keep improving it.

 

John

[DavyZ]

I believe that Mike Kelly means to conslidate the forums a bit, not actually dump the valuable info there--that is part of "getting back to our roots" and 'simplifying.' I do think we should keep a forum open that involves the L6 engines--no need to dump them! However, a lot of the forums (just look at the LONG list) can be consolidated or done away with. There is very little interest in some of the forums and they just take up bandwidth AFAIC; what ends up happening is that we get the SAME QUESTION posted in the Chevy forum, for example, just because no one was on the other forum to answer a question.

 

Remember when the site was 'smaller' and the forums were absolutely full of pertinent, meaningful, insiteful, USEFUL technical posts? That's what we'd like to achieve.

 

Also, self policing would be great for EVERYONE on this site and it is not hard to do.

 

Davy

[Afshin]

John, I've got a number of VERY good friends who are "L sixers". My comment was that there are other places on the web for those specific discussions and I'm not sure that they fit the mold here.

Even as a new member to HybridZ, I have become very disheartened by the idea of changing the direction of this wonderful site from it’s current logo ‘HybridZ where stock just don’t cut it” to “HybridZ where only V8’s will do”. Was I wrong in my interpretation of the purpose of this site as a forum for the exchange of interesting ideas pertaining to the modification of Z cars?

If this site came out of the need to create a community of open-minded and technically oriented performance enthusiasts who had creative performance conversions, how could it think of defining itself in such a narrow way “V8 or nothing”. Isn’t this too close to the narrow-minded view common to some of the classic Z sites?

Interestingly the previous announcement which was very nicely accepted by the HybridZ community related to “why us vs. them” as it pertained to the so-called ricers. So, then why now is the thought of taking the us vs. them mentality growing so strong and extreme as to entertain the idea of separating true technically oriented Z car conversion and performance enthusiasts based on the preference or choice of engine ?

I can assure you that most of us, turbo or any other modification group of HybridZ members are in no way different than ones who have V8’s. I have chosen the Datsun/Nissan Z platform for the sole purpose of making modification to enhance my driving pleasure and have fun. Those “other Z or L28 sites” as was put may share the same engine that I do, but they don’t share the same goal, level of passion or technical expertise in making performance oriented modifications. On the other hand, the general HybridZ group is an exact match for my interest and perspectives on performance.

Until now, I had never thought for a moment of HybridZ members with V8’s as different than those with L28 or RB’s.., and frankly I refuse to.

So, even as the most junior member of HybridZ I urge the administrators to keep the view that all mature members who share the same spirit and passion for technically oriented modifications on the Z cars as one community as opposed to drawing a line of distinction based on number of cylinders.

[Mikelly]

Davy captured my thoughts exactly. Interpret them as you wish. Bottom line is, as stated before, our origins are what they are, and I will NOT make apologies for them.

 

The focus is on consolodation of the forums, the strict inforcement of the rules, and the re-focus of our intended goals, which were captured perfectly in Pete Paraska's Mission statement, and some of which has been transfered to rules that will be held to bear for all of our membership.

 

Again, I hold no ill will to those who modify the L series motor... I sponsor one for christ sake. My point was that we have some problems with some of our membership and we need cooperation from our membership in ferreting the problems, and the problem children out. We also DON'T need 29 forums.

 

We're talking about getting back to a more basic, but not totally stripped format that will make a little more sense. And yes, I personally DON'T see the need for an RB and an L6 catagory. We could combine them. That is my personal opinion, and as another member pointed out, due to the popularety of the swap (Due to the BS movies out) we are attracting a BUNCH of POSERS who have no interest in our goals.

 

Are we focusing only on V8 swaps? Hell NO. HALF, No OVER HALF our moderators and adminsitrators DON'T have V8 swaps. What should that tell out mature and loyal followers? I don't think I have to explain it to them.

 

Mike 8)

[Guest Vashe]

I would like to add my 2 cents in as a new memeber. One thing I would like to see is a FAQ that would be able to answer the questions that get asked every few days. Also, a "search all" button would be great.

Thanks for the hard work you guys put in, and keep it up

[jeromio]

We (well, mostly JohnC) sort of started one:

 

http://240z.jeromio.com/faqdraft

 

But it is unfortunately incomplete. Still, there is a great deal of info there.

 

SuperDan had to remove the SearchAllForums due to CPU limitations.

 

However, If we could keep topics in the appropriate forum, the need for a search all would diminish or even vanish.

[Idnevno]

i also thought that "Hybrid" meant different, modified, not stock. i have posted before on other "Z" sites of which i will not mention and was told i was basically doing the Z a great injustice and i should go find help with my questions or problems elsewhere. i do own a '77 280Z of which has been highly modified. granted it does have an L series engine in it. i hope to start working on my other Z soon of which i will need help with other topics such as body, suspension, steering (bump steer, and other wierd problems) if i do get this other z car. you say "Hybrid" and trust me if everything works out i will have a "HybridZ" to the fullest extent of the term. the only thing left original will be the roof and the block. i am looking at a full tube frame GT2 car to convert and make strret legal by the skin of my teeth. i hope you will still include some of us like myself as a member of this site though i do not post often. i have always admired and appreciated this site for the help i have received and the pride people on this site have taken in their own cars. i hope to continue to receive the great advice and opinions of others with their Z's, for i know my judgement with mine has not always been the best or worked out the best for me.

[SleeperZ]

Personally I love the site, and often feel like I have something to contribute. I'm afraid I would miss VERY MUCH the Turbo, Ignition, and L6 forums. You say "go to the other sites", but have you been there? I have, and there is NO COMPARISON. The information here is consistantly reliable, courteous, and very well thought out. No other site has information or technical experience that even comes close.

 

I am totally with you on moderating the crap out of the site, especially to keep the trolls and spoon-feeders down. But please don't discriminate your membership merely based on the fact folks choose to keep the powerplant that came originally in the cars. I don't go around promoting a purist attitude, and very few other turbo L28 folks here do either. There is too much here to have to root around elsewhere, and too many common interests that bridge the gap to the V8'rs.

[DavyZ]

Davy captured my thoughts exactly...The focus is on consolidation of the forums' date=' the strict inforcement of the rules, and the re-focus of our intended goals, which were captured perfectly in Pete Paraska's Mission statement, and some of which has been transfered to rules that will be held to bear for all of our membership...And yes, I personally DON'T see the need for an RB and an L6 catagory. We could combine them...

 

Are we focusing only on V8 swaps? Hell NO. HALF, No OVER HALF our moderators and adminsitrators DON'T have V8 swaps...[/quote']

 

Guys, please read this summation of what Mike just said--it explains a whole lot.

 

L6 guys need not worry about an elimination of their forum, just a consolidation with the RB forum, etc.

 

It's not that bad, guys. Additionally, it'll help to streamline this site a bit. Do you know how difficult it is to patrol all the forums here???? Less forums is certainly easier and will be easier to read for the average member.

 

I still think the Chevy forum will still be the "post whatever" forum as usual lol.

 

Davy

[Jay1970Z]

I still think the Chevy forum will still be the "post whatever" forum as usual lol.

 

Yeah I wouldn't doubt it, as it seems to be the dumping ground for a lot of the usuals, (How much, how hard, how long). Maybe cause it's at the top? I dunno.

 

Even if the moderators do begin to crack down on the dumb posts that still puts a lot of stress on the mods, I don't want to be a jerk here, but we have to find a way to deter these people in the first place. I think we can probably attribute a lot of these posts to our two favorite movies (sarcastically)...There were a few posts a while back of "If I put an RB26DETT in my Z I get all wheel drive right?". So I'm not sure its possible but I think it would be in everyone's best interest to prevent the stupid questions and comments from being posted in the first place so not to overload the work of our mods.

 

Also, wouldn't there be a problem if someone comes on and asks "How fast will a Z with a 300ZX twin turbo engine in it be?". A mod sees this, the delete the thread. The next thing you know the guy comes back posting, "U POST NAZI'S ALL U CARE ABOUT IS UR AMERICAN PUSHROD 1950's JUNK". The mod deletes that one, then the next day the guy has a new username and again "U GUYS SUCK..." blah blah blah. It could snowball and go on and on from there, maybe I'm wrong though.

 

Sorry for being so wordy, I guess I got a little carried away

[pparaska]

...just in case anyone was wondering what the other admin is thinking...

 

Wow, where do I start. I am not about to mince words here. These are my feelings, no holds barred.

 

But before I go on, I will tell you that I think the L6 and RB series are fine engines. If the RB were available in quantity, I'd want one in a Z for myself! A turbo L6 Z, I'd love one of those too! A hotrod NA L6 Z, cool, I used to have one and loved it. You see, I've not met one person with or building a V8Z that looked down on other engine choices. That's because we are hot-rodders at heart. We build what we want with what's available.

 

Oh, and just for those that don't know the history of this site, Owen started the V8swappersforum and we lived there for a while. Then Dan Porter started HybridZ to give us a better home. You have those guys to thank. The REASON for starting it was that we kept getting the cold shoulder, flamed, etc. on the IZCC email list, the 240Z email list (although they are more tolerant now), and most notably ZCAR.COM for even mentioning V8 swaps into Zs. We wanted a haven from that. Yes, things have changed. We took on GN engined Zs, Ford V8s, Mopar V8s, Chevy V6, then the L6, then the RB. Somewhere in there we added brakes, suspension, chassis, and other performance oriented forums. Then people wanted to talk about non-tech stuff as a nice friendly place to hang out. Of course, we needed to buy/sell, etc., etc. And here we are, quite a bit different from the beginning. In some ways that's great. But lately, it's less so...

 

These are my observations from being part if the Internet Z car community since 1991. Yes, 1991. The Internet actually existed back then! Email was about it though . Was Al Gore even out of college yet ? And observations during the lifetime of HybridZ.org.

 

1) There are plenty of L6-only and Nissan-only idiots out there that will tell you in either a nice way or a not-so-nice way that putting an engine other than the one to their liking (L6 only, Nissan only, or Japanese only) into a Z is an injustice, unnatural, etc., and that you must be some kind of a genetic aberration for even thinking about it. THIS is why HybridZ (and the V8swappersforum that Owen started before it) was created - to have a haven away from these closed minded idiots.

 

2) If you have an L6 or RB or L6/RB forum on HybridZ that has the best tech info on these engines/swap, you WILL attract these idiots. This has happened very recently, and the person could not hold their tongue, even though Rule #1 states that this site is BLIND to engine/part origin - and this person was banned on the first offense. Heck, I was at a meeting of several HybridZ people lately, and even though there were several people there with V8Zs, this person tried to explain to us why he thought it just wasn't right to put a V8 in. You see, this is an illness that cannot be easily cured. It is also my belief that there are many closet purists (be they L6-only or Nissan-only, or Japanese engine-only) out there. I've been caught off guard more than just a few times by that!

 

I will not frequent this site if V8 or American engine intolerance is even allowed to stay posted more than half a day. I will not stand for even giving these tools a second chance. They DO NOT BELONG. Heck, I don't even want to have to DEAL with moderating of viewing that nonsense here. That is the impetus for some of my current thinking on HybridZ...

 

Does that mean we lock or get rid of the L6 and RB forums? To tell you the truth, I'm still not convinced one way or the other.

 

3) To my recollection, ALL of the bad apples that we've had trouble with (be it V8-bashing or not) tend to be L6-only or RB-only guys. My theory is that the closed mind they have is just one symptom of their bad character, another being immature and not being able to handle one's self online. Immaturity can be someone 15 or 75 years old. I've met all ages like that.

 

To me, that's another reason that I even started to lately consider leaving HybridZ or seeing if HybridZ could just not handle the ENGINE part of the L6 or RB powered Z. That's not to say I want to say good bye to 99% of the people I know here with those powerplants - to the contrary!

 

SleeperZ noted that he doesn't "go around promoting a purist attitude, and very few other turbo L28 folks here do either." Well, even one is way too many for HybridZ, IMO.

 

4) Afshin wrote:

Was I wrong in my interpretation of the purpose of this site as a forum for the exchange of interesting ideas pertaining to the modification of Z cars?

 

Well, that's in the general spirit, but the roots are there - we started out as a haven for V8 Z swappers.

 

Afshin also wrote:

If this site came out of the need to create a community of open-minded and technically oriented performance enthusiasts who had creative performance conversions, how could it think of defining itself in such a narrow way “V8 or nothingâ€. Isn’t this too close to the narrow-minded view common to some of the classic Z sites?

 

No, not really. And my idea wasn't to say "V8 or nothing". It was more like "Archive the L6 and RB forums, lock them, and let some other site handle that domain." You see, I'm not anti-L6 or anti-RB. But to say that an NA L6 Z is a hybrid is a stretch, IMO. But if we now get rid of the L6 forum, then it hurts feelings, no matter what we say. You see, I was one of the people that didn't want to start an L6 forum in the first place, because my fear was that HybridZ would attract the L6-only purists. Unfortunately, my fears have been realized. And we are now in a place that we wanted to get away from - a haven where non-L6 (V8, American V6, etc.) swaps could be discussed without the purists whining and bitching.

 

5) Air, fuel, and a turbo can not read the label on an engine. Even though the L6 or RB forums COULD go away, the turbo/supercharging forum can and would address pressurizing ANY engine, as it should!

 

6) To keep the non Chevy V8 swap questions out of that forum, why not simply move it down the page and have the Admin and Non Tech forums be up top? I think one of the reasons that the Chevy V8 Swap forum is so overrun with off-topic threads is because of it's physical placement on the page.

 

7) The CornerCarvers.com moderation style is too harsh for my liking, but some of those rules and procedures are attractive.

 

8 ) I like most of what jeromio proposed as moderation style.

 

9) I like Aaron's consolidation plan. Oh, and Aaron, Scottie has an American engine - that would stay no matter what!

 

10) No John (johnc), we are DEFINITELY NOT telling you to take a hike!

 

11) John, my point #2 says that it IS the topics (forums) that can lead to the people that we attract.

 

12) It's been brought to my attention that at least one regular on HybridZ thinks that it was offensive to delete the gangster-slang thread and to write Rule #4 the way it was written. I have to disagree. I for one want a high standard of the use of the English language on this site, for those that CAN write it decently. That is to say that if you can write English so that 99% of us can read it and know what you mean, but choose to use very obtuse and regional slang to look "cool", I'm going to ream you a new one. That's NOT to say that people who do not speak/write English well (because it's a second or third language of theirs) should not muddle through and try to communicate. I personally love it when language barriers can be broken down enough that we can share a common interest in the Z, etc.!

 

13) Dan Porter owns this site - he has the last word on any of this!

[Mikelly]

To answer your question Jay, We have ways of dealing with those we ban. We have the ability to prevent you from even viewing the site, as at least two of those who have recently been baned have found.

 

Bottom line is that if people can't seem to follow the rules then they need to go the hell away. It is that simple.

 

I've also wondered why it is that someone hasn't started an RB site, or an L6 technical site of their own... Similar to what we have done here, but specifically geared towards those with the same interest.

 

Mike 8)

[Bob_H]

I've also wondered why it is that someone hasn't started an RB site, or an L6 technical site of their own...

Mike,

You and others in this thread have already answered that question. Since I have one of the more visited L6 sites besides Bryan Little I think I can answer that to an extent.

I am not willing to deal with the B.S. and wade through all the idiots. I get several e-mails a week, ranging from: "Hey, I have an 83zx and the air conditioning isn't working, what do you think is the problem?" (yes, that was all the info in the e-mail), to "I have a 280z and the smog pump isn't working anymore, how can I find a replacement or remove it" - even though I have nothing about smog pumps on my site, much less any significant info on air conditioning. I usuallly point them to one of the forums and don't answer their question.

The RB swap is far too hot for me right now. Every "ricer" wants to do it because the GT-R is the cool car right now. Yet I can count on my fingers the number of us with successful RB26 swaps or good ones in progress. You have seen how I respond to those who don't take the time to write a coherent response/question or who posts inaccurate info with little or no facts to back it up. I may someday start a RB swap forum, but it would be moderated like CC.com because it makes the job eaiser on the mods and keeps well, this has been covered well.

I don't see a need for another L6 forum because 240z.org and zcar.com can cover 95% of that traffic. For the other 5%, there are good tech and turbo forums here to fill that gap.

I agree that the RB and L6 forums should go. To be honest, I was kinda surprised when the RB forum popped up in the last year. It was fine in the Alternate 6 cylinder forum.

As it has been said, the cc.com style of moderation works, but is not for everyone and I'd bet 80% of the regulars here would be highly offended and would not like it. As such maybe some aspects of it can be adopted, but others not used at all.

-Bob

[johnc]

You see, I was one of the people that didn't want to start an L6 forum in the first place, because my fear was that HybridZ would attract the L6-only purists. Unfortunately, my fears have been realized.

 

But Pete, here you are the King! If one of those clowns shows up you can shout, "Off with his head!" Maybe I'm a bit sadistic but I would look forward to one of those Whack-a-Moles sticking his head up. A witty reply, lock the tread, and ban the user - all in about 30 seconds. "No more HybridZ for you! Next!"

 

I'll be more then willing to wield the hammer if its getting a bit heavy in your hand. I used to have moderator privlidges until the new site was setup.

 

Conversly though, there is a little V8 swap bigotry on this site. I have had to defend my choice of a normally aspirated L6 for my 240Z on HybridZ a number of times.