johnc Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 I talked last Friday with Devin at Unitrax about gear oil for my R180 with a Quaife. I had been running Redline Shockproof but wasn't happy with the heat control. Devin recommended Lubrication Engineers' 9921 75W-90 for any application that might see temps over 300F. Its what they fill with for Quaife installations in racing Corvettes and Vipers. For lower heat applications (any street setup) he suggested 703 80W-90. Quaife and Torsen units generate a lot of heat, usually more then you'll see from a clutch pack LSD. They do require more torque to move then a clutch pack LSD and that heat load, along with the additional internal gearing and resultant shear loads, generates a lot of heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Great info. John, Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hey Gary, good to hear someone chime in that has used that diff and pushed it. I'm curious about your VG30DET 510, got any pics you can post or email? What did you do to get clearence at the steering box? We've got one in progress here and have converted it to rack & pinion, and a Z crossmember... I'm curious to see how you've done yours. Well, the car is "one of a kind", and I don't say that lightly. The front of the car was mostly cut out and double aluminum A-arms used attaching to a custom sub-frame. The lower arms and uprights are RX7 with the upper arm from a Supra. Coilovers w/ remote reservoirs complete the setup, along with a custom sway bar. This allowed the turbo to be mounted very low, basically where the stock steering box & frame rail used to be. Here are pics with a detailed list of mods: http://kmhafer.datsun510.com/march_2002.htm Drivetrain: Engine: Nissan Leopard VG30ET Long Block: Stock, Euro camshafts. Throttle Body: 1990 Nissan Stanza (60mm) Turbo: Stock T3 (oil & water cooled) with modified intake housing (90 degree bend) Turbo downpipe: Custom 3" with provision for stock Nissan 02 sensor. Wastegate: Applied Technologies Blow Off Valve: HKS Sequential Boost Controller: Extreme BC, billet aluminum w/ manual adjustment Exhaust: Mandrel Bent 3" with Flowmaster muffler. Crank Pulley: 1987 Nissan Maxima (early) (smaller diameter than ZX unit) Alternator: 1990 Nissan 240SX (70amp) Radiator: Volkswagen VR-6 (part number 1HM-121-256-H) Intercooler: 1987 Mitsubishi Starion Overflow Bottle: 1993 Suzuki Swift Clutch: Center Force Dual Friction (ZX turbo application) Flywheel: Stock 1984 300ZX Turbo Transmission: 1985 Nissan 300ZX NON-turbo. Driveshaft: Shortened 510 unit. Front Suspension: Upper Forged Aluminum A-Arm: 1988 Toyota Supra Turbo (Front) Lower Forged Aluminum A-Arm: 1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (rear bushings turned 90 degrees to mount to Upright (Spindle): Modified 1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (upper mount modified to accept the Supra ball joint) Lower Ball Joint: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Turbo Aluminum Hub- 1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (Note: use Mazda spec lugnuts!) Aluminum Brake Calipers- 1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo Brake Pads- Performance Friction Springs- Eibach 2" dia. 440# springs Shocks- Suzuki GSX-R w/ remote reservoir Front Swaybar: Hollow 1" diameter with custom bars- heim joint ends Steering Rack: Modified Datsun 240Z. Tie rods are modified Nissan B13 Sentra mounted to a stock Z steering rack. Front Wheels: 1993 Nissan 300ZX (16x7.5) Front Tires: 205/40/16 Kuhmo Ecsta 712 Brake Master Cylinder: Tilton Dual setup Rear Suspension: Rear Crossmember: Custom Penultimate using ZX trailing arms Rear Control Arms: 1980 Datsun 280ZX Rear Brakes: Stock 280ZX Rear Hubs: Stock 280ZX (Re-drilled for 5-lug and uses MAZDA studs) Rear Shocks: Tokico 5 way adjustable (1980 Datsun 280ZX) w/ adjustable ride height Rear Springs: 2" dia. 370# springs. Rear Swaybar: Modified Quickor Datsun 510 application Rear Wheels: 1993 Nissan 300ZX (16x7.5) Rear Tires: 225/40/16 Kuhmo Ecsta 712 Rear Differential: Subaru 3.70 Limited Slip Interior: Chassis Stiffening: Custom, fully integrated roll cage w/ easy access (painted black) Seats: '93 Madza RX-7 R1, black suede (front), stock rear seat Other: new windshield and gasket, new window channel felt, new door hinge bushings Safety: Pair of Momo 4 point harnesses, WINK mirror 5 panel, Chrome 10 lbs fire extinguisher, Vitaloni side mirrors Accessories: Momo Steering wheel with Datsun horn button Momo Carbon fiber shift knob Custom VDO cluster (6-gauges): Water temp, Oil temp, Oil Pressure Volts, Boost/Vacuum, Exh. Gas Temp Tach: modified 510 factory tach Speedo: Z car 160 mph w/ trip meter Switches & controls: 1973 510 headlight/wiper/heater controls that are lit up. Spare tire: '88 RX-7 space saver w/ aluminum wheel, aluminum jack & crank Euro tail lights and functioning Euro front marker lights w/ city lights Straight bumpers: Standard (front), Seamless (rear) Other: Headlights: European Specification BMW Projector Beam, 5-series BMW. Wiper Motor: Early 80s Mazda 626 on modified 510 base plate. Fuel Pump: 1984 Nissan 300ZX Turbo in-tank unit. Battery: Optima, mounted in trunk Paint: all original (except fenders) 831 factory off white Grille: Factory 1968 Datsun 510 w/ Datsun badge, polished & rare Misc. Engine was freshened up w/ new water pump & timing belt (only 12k miles ago) Synthetic oils in engine, transmission, and differential Performance: ** Horsepower: 325+ @ flywheel / 250+ @ rear wheels ** Torque (ft. lbs) 380+ @ flywheel / 295+ @ rear wheels ** - These numbers are based on dyno numbers and do not factor in a 5-8% increase due to intercooler efficiency while actually moving which cannot be simulated on dyno. 0-60 mph: 4.8 seconds 1/4 mile: 12.8 seconds (on street tires) Record Holder: 2001 Larison Rock Hillclimb Record in OSP-O (Over 2.5 liters) w/ 1:56.4 run Beat existing record by over 2 seconds set previous year by 2000 Mallet Corvette that runs the Silver State Classic in the 185 MPH and over class. Sport Compact Car: This car was featured in the November 2000 issue and has been improved since then w/ both suspension and engine mods listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Oh, if you think that car is cool (and nuts), just wait until you see my hybrid Z, due out early '04. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SpikeyGG Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Guys, what year/model Subaru can these R160 LSDs be had off of? Thanks, -Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SpikeyGG Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Nevermind, I'm a moron... I just saw the previous post about the WRX,Outback,etc. Anyway, what year should I punch into the car-part.com search engine? Thanks again! -Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Thanks Gary. Not nuts exactly... I had heard stories of "the strutless wonder" in these parts before, but was told it was a VG30DETT powered car. I believe you have dispelled that myth for me. I can't claim much in the way of credit for the current VG/510 swap going on here except that it's my business partner doing it, and at the least we're bouncing the ideas off each other. The goal is a 300rwhp 4 door 510. Great info though Gary, do you take the car to many of the Northwest Datsun meets? (Shasta, Vancouver, Port Townsend?) Maybe next year I'll see the car in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Isn't there some point at which you have to take the ring and pinion size into account? Maybe I'm not giving the R160 or the R180 enough credit, but I don't see people running 300 hp in front of Ford 6.25 rear ends, especially with a low gear ratio where you won't have very much pinion and ring contact area. Also I would like to point out that a big smoky burnout with an LSD and a bunch of autoxing won't be nearly as hard on the ring and pinion as a drag race launch with no or little tire slippage. LSD yes, R&P no. Not saying Savage is wrong (obviously experience is king), just saying that drag racing is going to stress the ring and pinion a lot, especially for people on slicks, not to mention guys with trans brakes. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 just saying that drag racing is going to stress the ring and pinion a lot, The weak point in the two spider gear R180 is the two spider gears. I haven't ever seen an R180 fail in the ring and pinion gear (excluding lube failures). If both wheels are hooked up and or burning out then the spider gears are not doing much work. When you do the big one wheel burnout the spider gears are working hard and bearing all the torque going through the unit. That's not a big deal until you start increasing the torque (via engine mods) going through the unit. Then, blammo! The four spider gear R180 is considerably stronger but its hard to find (I have yet to see one outside of Nissan Motorsports). The R190 normally has four spider gears. For the two spider R180, swapping in a Quaife or the Nissan Comp "competition" LSD eliminates the spider gear issue. Also, welding up the two spider gear R180 eliminates the problem discussed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 OK. That's interesting. I've seen MANY American diffs fail when the pinion loses a tooth or the ring loses a tooth. Apparently that's not as much of a problem with our R's. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Thanks Gary. Not nuts exactly... I had heard stories of "the strutless wonder" in these parts before' date=' but was told it was a VG30DETT powered car. I believe you have dispelled that myth for me. I can't claim much in the way of credit for the current VG/510 swap going on here except that it's my business partner doing it, and at the least we're bouncing the ideas off each other. The goal is a 300rwhp 4 door 510. Great info though Gary, do you take the car to many of the Northwest Datsun meets? (Shasta, Vancouver, Port Townsend?) Maybe next year I'll see the car in person.[/quote'] Yep, the only DETT car that I know of in existance that is just about completed is my friend Dave Lum in Portland. You can see how he built his "ship in a bottle" at his site at: http://www.datsuns.com/projects/fv-s/fvs.htm He plans on going with a double A-arm setup in front and something custom in the rear, leaving it a 510 in body only. The DETT swap is the most complex and expensive engine swap I've heard of, over $10k to do it after he spent several grand just to get the DE in there, first. Of course, any real handling and nimbleness that car once had is gone. There's no doubt that a V8 Z is a much better "bang for the buck" than any 510 could hope to be. I had serious power and torque in the strutless wonder and it still wouldn't do over 135 mph and with the turbo motor and drag that a brick like a 510 has, it got crappy mileage, too. (a high of 20 mpg / highway, low teens around town) Good for a fun car, but never as a driver. In regards to the "Strutless Wonder", it has been to Shasta several times over the last few years and I sold it to a guy who has it down in the bay area. So, Shasta is the only place you'll see it. You'll see my Z at the NW shows this next year, so make sure to look me up if you are at any of them. For those looking for a Subaru LSD, my friend has the ultimate site with that info. Keep in mind that many of the newer Subarus run viscous LSDs that require using the CVs, so not a viable option for most. Here's the link: http://kmhafer.datsun510.com/Subaru.htm After being part of the Z/hybrid group for a few months, I realize how much info we have on modifications in the 510 world and how available it is with much smaller numbers and only 400 people on the list worldwide. However, the Hybridz forum is the best for what we are doing! Lastly, I've never seen a R&P go in any R160 or larger in 13 years of playing the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Isn't there some point at which you have to take the ring and pinion size into account? Maybe I'm not giving the R160 or the R180 enough credit' date=' but I don't see people running 300 hp in front of Ford 6.25 rear ends, especially with a low gear ratio where you won't have very much pinion and ring contact area. Also I would like to point out that a big smoky burnout with an LSD and a bunch of autoxing won't be nearly as hard on the ring and pinion as a drag race launch with no or little tire slippage. LSD yes, R&P no. Not saying Savage is wrong (obviously experience is king), just saying that drag racing is going to stress the ring and pinion a lot, especially for people on slicks, not to mention guys with trans brakes. Jon[/quote'] Well, I've proven that it'll last for road racing, autocross, and goofing around. Now it's up to someone around here to try one in their Z that drag races to see what the limit really is. For $200, it's worth a try for the "low buck" drag racer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 I welded up a R180 for Dave Booth. We went the next weekend to the drags. After some pretty hard launches (about 6-8 or so in all) with street tires, that diff was whinning like an old wife all the way home. Never broke, but wasn't happy. Just a bit to add to the discussion. Welding the spider gears throws a bit more into the fray.... This was a sbc (~250hp) with a 700R4. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomoHawk Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 What is the gear ratio of the R-160? For me, I usually just cruise, so I'm looking for the lowest overall gear to bring down the RPMs. thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 What is the gear ratio of the R-160? For me' date=' I usually just cruise, so I'm looking for the lowest overall gear to bring down the RPMs. thx.[/quote'] Not ideal for what you want, as they are 3.70s. Great ratio for a street/autocross car, but far from a 3.54 or 3.36. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zguy95135 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 sorry for the stupid question, but is a R180 a LSD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 Don't know the US situation but elsewhere IIRC the R180 LSD was sometimes available as an optional extra. It was also used extensively and successfully in rallying, I assume that it was available as a competition part. I'd happily use a R180 LSD in my road/track car in preference to the heavier R200 but they are rare and expensive, in this country anyway. Off the top of my head, a rather risky place sometimes, the R180 LSD had four spider gears, not two, and was a lot stronger as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 sorry for the stupid question, but is a R180 a LSD? As stated, in the US, there were very few (if any) R180 LSDs. Any that exist were usually added as an option or after purchase. I'll be going with an R180 LSD (can get them for $500 new, carrier only) w/ CVs on my Z. I don't want the extra weight and being that the R160 held up to 340HP/400 ft lbs for many years, I'm sure the R180 will hold up to 400HP/400 ft lbs in the Z. Torque kills diffs, so using that logic, the R180 should be more than adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zguy95135 Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 ahhh! i hope the guy giving one away for free didnt throw it away already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomoHawk Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I could never figure out why the A/T cars ALL had R-180s and the M/T cars had R-200s? Probably because if the torque loading during acceleration? When I bought MY car, the guy told me it had the stronger R-200 diff, but I later figured it was the R-180, ( from the tall shape of the cover) like it matters- I don't drag race or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.