Should Tokico's put me this low?

[Zoldman]

Hey all,

 

I got my early '74 260 back from the shop today with a fresh set of Tokico springs and Illuminas. The springs and struts were bought as a set from one of the Z vendors and are supposed to lower the car about 1", according to all I've read. My old springs and struts were toast, and so I didn't expect much lowering at all, just looking to get better handling and such.

 

However, the car is now what I call "slammed". The front crossmember is only about 3.5 inches off the ground, and the top of the front tires actually sit up inside the wheel wells about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. The tires are 205/65 on 15" rims. The lower control arms are angled upwards instead of horizontal, which I know is a bump steer issue, but the degree that they are angled is also not what I expected.

 

Maybe I just didn't get it right, but I searched and read and looked at other members pix and I don't see the degree of lowering in others vehicles that I got with similar spring/strut changes. I have verified with Tokico that I got the right part numbers for my car; the early verses late 1974 issue was considered.

 

Ok, after all that long winded blather, my questions are:

 

Is the lowering I described normal?

 

Is it possible that my mechanic forgot something in reassembly? The car drives OK, but is bouncy. I turned the Illuminas down to "3", front and rear, and that helped a little. Maybe the spring hats or something else didn't get back on.......or is this possible?

 

Assuming that he didn't screw up, what alternatives to stock springs do I have? Motorsport says the stock height Euro springs for the 240-260 are NLA. I have a 305 in it now and am going to an LT1 shortly, so I really need a somewhat higher rate spring than stock. At this point coilovers are not an option.

 

Any ideas, comments or suggestions? I don't want to spend the rest of my days dodging speed bumps, steep driveways and roadkill. Someone mentioned that the 280ZX springs and/or spring hats can be used on the 240-260 and will increase both spring rate and height. Anyone know the scoop on this?

 

Thanks

 

Bill (broke and now bummed)

[Miles]

Try the spring set from Arizona Z. They are 180 lb/in. front and 200 lb/in. rear and maintain the stock ride height. I have them in my 72 240Z with 350 SBC. The ride is a bit stiff, but I like it. The springs are shorter then stock, but because they are stiffer the car stays at stock height.

 

Miles

[blueovalz]

So if I understand this correctly, you simply wanted to lower your car another 1", which is why you chose the springs you did. I assume the SBC was already in the car previous to the spring change and that you ended up with more than 1" (I'm guessing from your discription that perhaps these springs have dropped the car closer to 2"). The Tokicos (or any strut, even the high pressure ones) shouldn't have any significant effect to the ride height. The springs are the sole determinate in ride height, all other things being equal. If these are OEM type of spings (non-coil over), it sounds like they just plain sent you the wrong springs. It would seem unlikely that the struts were assembled incorrectly as it is a pretty straight forward set-up, and any missing piece would show up as soon as you were to drive the car. Was the rear lowered the same amount as the front? I would jack the car up, and take a look at the springs, seats (upper and lower), and do an overall inspection to see if anything looks obviously misplaced or missing. It would be nice if you could compare the new springs with the old ones. I know this didn't happen, but it almost sounds like an OEM spring that was cut down (low and bouncy)

[Zoldman]

Blueovalz,

 

I verified that these are the correct part numbers; at least the correct number is on the boxes............

 

I think the "bouncy" may be from bouncing off the bumps stops, but won't know that till I can get it up on the lift and check for abrasion.

 

Again, the ride height may be normal, and I just miscalculated what I would get. I'm hoping someone with this setup or in the know will be able to tell me.

 

Thanks

 

Bill

[johnc]

The lower control arms are angled upwards instead of horizontal, which I know is a bump steer issue, but the degree that they are angled is also not what I expected.

 

Did the Chinese mechanic Sum Ting Wong work on your car?

 

Check to see if the springs were swapped front to back by mistake. ALso, a 205/65-15 is pretty tall (~25") so these springs might be too much of a drop for those tires.

[Cody 82 ZXT]

Did the Chinese mechanic Sum Ting Wong work on your car?

 

 

Thats a good one!

[Zoldman]

Hmmmm,

 

Springs switched front to back; that would be interesting. I'm guessing that somewhere on the spring Tockico has a "F" and "R" stamped. Any other easy way to identify front vs rear? I'll take a look today.

 

John, I'm not sure if Sum Ting Wong worked on the car, but his daughter Ping Ping has been known to visit the motor from time to time.

 

Anyone know about the use of 280zx (or regular 280) springs and hats? I remember reading somewhere that these springs would fit. If used with the 240-260 spring hats, you got about 1.5 inches of lift. The hats alone would give 3/4" and can also be used on the 240-260 strut/spring. I tried to search the site, but if I read it here, I have lost the thread.

 

By the way, the 25" tire and wheel combo is the only thing keeping the exhaust from hitting the ground. At its lowest point the pipes are 1" off the ground. I will be redoing when the LT1 goes in, but still will be too low.

 

I mentioned in my original post that my front crossmemebr was about 3.5 inches from ground...........looks scary low to me. What do youse guys tink about that height?

 

Help me Obi Wan(s), you're my only hope.

 

Thanks

 

Bill

[Brad-ManQ45]

I just went to Customlock's house last night to look at his project, flip spit, swap lies and tell jokes.

 

He has an '82 ZXT that has the Tokico package on and it is definitely slammed much more than my Eibach/Illumina setup...

[wheelman]

I'm going resurrect this old thread becasue I just installed the same basic package as Zoldman, except I'm using the Tokico blue struts rather than the Illuminas, and ended up with the same result. The car dropped closer to 2 inches than the 1" advertised by Tokico. I have about 1 inch of travel in the front before the bump stops and about 2 inches in the rear and the front springs look to be almost bottomed out.

 

Was there any resolution to your situation Zoldman?

What did you finally do?

 

I can't drive the car this way without removing or cutting the bump stops, it is just to low.

 

Edit: Here are some pictures that show the springs and front LCAs

Left front spring

 

Left LCA

 

Right front spring

 

Right front LCA

 

Left rear spring

 

Wheelman

[Here comes trouble]

No wonder it is slammed lower than you want........the first picture shows 4 coils already compressed.........My coilover on the Tomahawk places the front cross member at ( a way too low) 3 1/2 inches from the ground and the adjusting nut is at the very bottom of the adjusting sleeve. With the coilovers I can adjust up for several inches for needed height. Return those red buggers or brush guard and skid plate the undercarriage.

[blueovalz]

Man, that appears to be one sorry-a$$ed spring. I've never seen one compress this bad before. I'd love to see what the height of this spring was prior to the install. It very much appears to be much too weak.

BTW, is the left and right front springs reversed (it appears on one photo the top coils are compressed, but on the other side the bottom coils are compressed)? I assume these are variable rate (which are now linear rate)?

[BillZ260]

I don't know much about spring dynamics but those fronts are WAY compressed. Measure the distance between the coils as it sits and I'd guess you have about 2-3 times that in wheel travel before you bottom out the spring, that's your bouncy. The rears look more normal...

 

Zoldman you still around? Can you chime in on your solution?

[JMortensen]

I know the answer wheelman!!! 18" wheels... j/k

 

I have a friend with the Tokico setup and it doesn't seem that low. She got hers about 8 or 9 years ago, maybe they changed the design? Looks to me like a progressive spring in the front, which would explain why the first 4 coils are bound, but there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of travel available before the rest of the spring binds or the strut bottoms out. Just looks like a crappy set of springs to me. I don't think there is anything "wrong" with them.

 

I'd exchange them for something else (I know it's a lot of work). The Susp Tech springs are lower than what you've got there IIRC, so I wouldn't try that as a replacement. Maybe Eibach???

[wheelman]

Thanks for the input guys.

 

Jon,

It's not so much the work that pisses me off its the money and time I have to wait before being able to drive this thing. I suppose I could put the stock springs back on until I figure out what I want to do but that will be way more work because I have to use a spring compressor to do it. All 4 new ones went on without using the compressor, in fact the rears are loose in the perches when the suspension is at full droop.

 

Terry,

I probably wasn't watching the lettering on the springs when I put the right one on so it probably is upside down in relation to the left one, if that really matters.

 

These are not supposed to be progressive springs and from the info I gathered before buying the package the fronts are 165 lbs/in and the rears are 180 lbs/in. I'm not familiar with the stock rates but they are less than that, correct? I did notice the free length of these new ones was much less than the stock ones and that all the stock springs were the same length. Are the stock springs the same rate front and rear?

 

Anyway, I'm calling Tokico today to see what can be done to remedy the situation, I'll post an update.

 

Edit #1: I just got off the phone with Tokico. The stiuation has not been resolved yet but I got the real scoop on these springs.

Front: Progressive, 140 lbs

Rear: Linear, 165 lbs

I'm expecting a call back from one of their techs. If I don't hear from him by early afternoon I'm going to call him. I have to say that so far the customer service has at least been reachable and seems willing to help.

 

Doesn't make sense to me to put progressives on the front and linear on the back but what do I know I'm just an amateur. In my case the fronts are no longer progressive as those coils are bound, so now I've got shorter linears on the front.

 

Wheelman

[blueovalz]

Interesting information there! If no spring compressor was used, then the free length of these springs must be fairly short, and would corraborate the spring rate you've stated. I would try to see if the Tech has internet access so that he could view your photos. Any progressive spring with the softer coils bound up at the static ride height is not good (and you don't even have all of the bodywork back on the car). Looking at the photo, I'd say you've got 1/4" to 3/8" gap between coils (only 7 coils), which means spring bind with 1 3/4" to 2 5/8" of suspension travel, and that again is not good. I don't like anything I see here other than a nice spring rate. How much additional weight will be added to make the car complete? Obviously, shortening the strut housing will not help at all (if this was a future modification)

[wheelman]

Terry,

No I will not be sectioning the strut housings, especially not to accomodate these springs. Not sure how much weight the fenders, hood, grill, headlight buckets and air dam will add but somewhere between 75 - 125 pounds. The stock 280Z hood I have weighs at least 35 by itself, probably more, and each fender is probably 20, thats 75 right there, correct me if I'm wrong on these estimates. That doesn't include the rest of the interior, I've got one seat and the dash in right now with nothing else except some of the plastic pieces laying in the back.

You are about right on the travel to bind up of the springs although it'll hit the bump stops before then. I probably need to shave the bump stops anyway but I'm not doing anything like that until I get some decent springs.

 

Wheelman

[Here comes trouble]

Stock 280 Z springs: 115 # @ front..15.71" free length 9.5 turns of coil____________________..127# @ rear.....15.43" free length...8.5 turns of coil. My Tomahawk Z has the 10 inch- 165 -180 coilover spring rate.

[JMortensen]

Any progressive spring with the softer coils bound up at the static ride height is not good (and you don't even have all of the bodywork back on the car).

Not like it matters too much since Wheelman is going to do something else anyway, but I would think that you would want 1/2 of the progressive part of the spring to be bound when sitting. If you had more than that then you'd have to blow through quite a bit of travel before you got to the other spring rate, and if you had less then you'd only have the softer droop, and not the softer bump, which might make for some wierd handling. I can say that every progressive spring I've seen (and I've seen probably 30 sets over the years) has had the first 3 or 4 coils bound with the car on its wheels. Some had a couple coils bound or nearly bound right out of the box IIRC.

 

You can always tell a progressive spring because a linear spring won't compress the first couple coils. It compresses ALL of the coils equally, unless something is wrong with it. Also the compressed part goes on top Wheelman, because the top of the spring is sprung weight and the bottom is unsprung. So you want the heavier part on top.

[wheelman]

Jon,

Thanks for the comment about the progressive coils being on top, I hadn't really thought about it, although if I do keep these I would have turned it over because it looks weird.

 

I just got off the phone with Tokico.

Here is what the customer service rep told me.

These kits have been sold for many years exactly as they are with very few complaints except for guys asking to have springs that are even lower. Their company policy is that if I'm not happy with them I can send them back but I need to return them through the original supplier.

 

I haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do yet but I'll probably send these back, keep the struts and find different springs. I might decide to go coil-over but that's even more work and money, what to do, what to do???

 

So it looks like this story will have a happy ending except for my frustration in having to wait longer and start looking for a decent set of springs again.

 

I suggested to them that they put more information in their advertising material so their customers can make an informed decision. The guy I talked to welcomed this suggestion, apparently he's been asking for this for quite a while and gets no where with the marketing folks, what a surprise!!!

 

I read in the original post from this thread that AZ car sold stock height but stiffer springs, is this still true?

 

Wheelman

[Dudeboy]

Wheelman,

 

I went out and took a picture of my drivers side tokico/spring strut. Picture attached:

 

http://album.hybridz.org/showphoto.php?photo=2690&cat=500&page=1

 

The other three corners were ok as well and car rides and handles great, however not low enough for me. If you can get a refund or exchange for the springs if your are not beyond the expiration. Quick question? What is the part number for your springs, is it possible you were shipped the wrong springs for a Z car?