Our rights are being taken away-Patriot Act

[Mikelly]

Hmm... Let's see, Freedom comes with a price, and we are under a state of war with a foe who has far reaching allies under unassuming alliences. Our country has never faced something like this in our history of being a nation.

 

I'm amazed that on this, the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack on US soil, that we would have so many "Sheople" falling in lockstep against something that will only be used to target those who SHOULD fear for their privacy.

 

Chenney swapped residences, it was legal, get over it. He followed the LETTER of the regulations requiring state residence... It was legal... Tell me this: Your great candidate on the democratic ticket for president couldn't even decide for THREE WEEKS how to defend an attack on his military record and the medals he won... How quick would he respond to another terrorist attack? I'm not impressed... Say what you will about Bush, but atleast he kills terrorists... He talks tough, and he means it. Did he offend the rest of the free world with his decision to go after Saddam and terrorists? Who cares... They will eventually fall in step, as soon as they need another favor from the United State.

 

You folks have less than 8 weeks to realize we're gonna have a republican president for another four years... You picked a pathetic flip flop, who has less appeal as a president to this country than Bob Dole! The sad thing is John Edwards is getting taken down in this... I think he would have been a MUCH more viable candidate. A real shame...

 

No, I'm just fine with uncle sam watching my PC and checking out my phone logs... I've got nothing to hide, and anyone who thinks this is a real invasion on their privacies needs to go back and READ what the intent of the Patriot Act will be used for...

 

And Yes those in Chechnya who are rebels are MUSLIMS... I'm amazed how LITTLE people research topics before they march right off the cliff, right along with the rest of the bahahaha, baaahhhaaaa SHEOPLE!

 

Most of you guys are smarter than this... Do your research, and put your fears at rest. And remind yourselves why this current act is needed... On this, the anniversary... Think about it.

Mike 8) 8)

[johnc]

For those that forget:

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/wtc.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/pentagon.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/aa11.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/aa77.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/ua175.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/ua93.htm

 

BTW... If you look through these lists you will most likely find someone with your last name. I know I found two "Coffeys." They were a father and son.

[johnc]

My attitude hasn't changed one bit from what GWB said to the nation on 9/20/2001:

 

 

Americans are asking, "How will we fight and win this war?"

 

We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the destruction and to the defeat of the global terror network.

 

Now, this war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

 

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations secret even in success.

 

We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest.

 

And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

 

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. Our nation has been put on notice, we're not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans.

 

 

And GWB has stuck to this pledge for 3 years. Unfortunately I can't trust John Kerry to do the same or stick to his word.

[JKDGabe]

I'm amazed that on this, the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack on US soil, that we would have so many "Sheople" falling in lockstep against something that will only be used to target those who SHOULD fear for their privacy.

 

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master." George Washington

 

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." Patrick Henry

 

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

 

"[the united states] can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary americans." Bill Clinton

[zguy95135]

No, I'm just fine with uncle sam watching my PC and checking out my phone logs... I've got nothing to hide, and anyone who thinks this is a real invasion on their privacies needs to go back and READ what the intent of the Patriot Act will be used for...

 

You say its ok if the government watches you on the internet and listens to your conversations because you have nothing to hide, so it would be ok to let them search through your mailbox and read your mail, or better yet, put cameras in your house to watch your every move? It would be fine right? You have nothing to hide.

 

Im sure most of you have read the book 1984. Thats what im talking about. You let the government take away some of our rights and where are they going to stop?

[Mikelly]

Zguy, You can take any circumstance, Add emotion, throw away reason, and have a "1984". Do as you wish... I'm quite certain that Uncle Sam Won't be saddling up to my curb with their listening devices, cameras, and opening my mail box. However, if for some reason they found me on their list... I'd COOPERATE and assist them in eliminating me as a suspect in their war on terror... ONLY TERRORISTS and those who support their goal have real reason to fear this act.

 

You guys are killing me... Fan your flames all you want, add as much drama as you need to this... But YOU KNOW, and I KNOW, that there are TO MANY LIBERALS in congress and the senate to let this bill get out of hand. Once this "War" is considered won (Much like Reagan's ill-fated war on drugs), This bill will be killed. But you guys go ahead and pump it up as much as Mr. Kerry needs you to. Bahahaha Bahahaha ("Lambert?" "Dahahaddy!" ) Go ahead, he needs all the help he can get...

 

This reminds me of a bunch of housewives sitting on sofas and watching friggin' soap operas, Crying their eyes out over some fictional character's death... Reality just a little to boring for you guys? 1984? JEEZ!

 

Again, DO YOUR RESEARCH ON FACTS, not some BS FICTIONAL Paperback NOVEL.

 

 

Come on guys, don't be Sheople....

 

There are R-E-A-L reasons NOT to support Bush... They are out there... you guys are being lazy. Don't grab the low hanging (Empty and spoiled) fruit.

 

Mike aka The fence sitter...

[Pop N Wood]

I'm amazed that on this, the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack on US soil, that we would have so many "Sheople" falling in lockstep against something that will only be used to target those who SHOULD fear for their privacy.

 

You misused the word sheeple this time. Or does it apply to anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view? Why can't a thinking person be against this abuse of American ideals?

 

The Patriot Act is Un-American and a violation of our constitutional principles. I am confident that once the hysteria and fear brought on by the September 11th attacks subsides, that our courts will see it as such and rescind huge portions of the act.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the bill of rights was amended to the constitution to protect innocent people, people who have “nothing to hide or fearâ€, from abuses by the government. If the bill or rights doesn’t apply to honest Americans, then what good is it? Why even have the words at all?

 

I am glad to hear your sense of fear allows you to freely give up your constitutional guarantees. I am under no such disillusions.

 

Quite frankly, I don't trust your statement that this "will only be used to target those who SHOULD fear for their privacy". This administration may have the best of intentions. But who is to say that the next one, or some sheriff of Mayberry somewhere, shares your sense of fair play?

[Mikelly]

Pop, You are in titled to your opinion... Just as I stated earlier, once this whole war is declared "Won" and the liberal tides turn, the Patriot Act, or most of it's key principles will be killed.

 

Does the Patriot Act infrenge upon our constitutional rights? ABSOLUTELY.... Does that bother me personally? To a point. Do I understand the need for it and the intended use of it? I believe I do. Therefore it does not bother me at this time.

 

As I have stated several times, there are VERY VALID reasons to take up your picket signs and protest against Bush... VERY GOOD reasons... I've seen NONE of them discussed in any threads here since day one.

 

We're all in titled to our opinions, and mine matters most to? M-E! I don't care if others "Get it" or not. As I'm sure you don't care what others think of YOUR opinions. They matter to YOU!

As I said before... The answers are out there, but we're all taking the path, just like water... Least resistance... so Yea, Sheeople fits, In MY opinion...Which is all that matters to ME

Mike 8)

[Guest Phil1934]

Would our government abuse such an act? We are having a minor scandal in Atlanta as all the candidates for county commissioner, except the incumbent, have found out they all had background checks run on them by the local police. Patriot Act wire taps now outnumber law enforcement ones. We've seen confiscation of property without criminal charges if drugs are suspected being abused to the point workers are stopped en route to their homes in Mexico and their savings stripped from them. Even Douglas Macarthur warned that governments use crises to gain more control. The only legal prosecution of a terrorist group in the U.S. has been overturned because it was obtained illegally. Now the government is pursuing deportation. If we are serious about protecting freedoms, it has to be for all.

[Pop N Wood]

...this whole war is declared "Won" and the liberal tides turn' date=' the Patriot Act, or most of it's key principles will be killed.

[/quote']

 

And when will that be? When people in the middle east no longer want to blow us up?

 

That is my biggest concern with the "war on terror". What is the exit strategy? And I am not talking Iraq.

 

Wars come and go, but the constitution is not something we should chose to bend simple because it is expedite at this point in time. I share our fore father's mistrust of governments.

 

Having said all that, I don't think the Patriot Act is something to "blame" or even fault Bush for. He had his reasons and he sure didn't do it alone. I just think it went farther than we needed to go. I also think it will be hard to get rid of because it is something that most law enforcement circles have always wanted.

[Mikelly]

My view is that we will declare we "Won" just as we did with the war on drugs... Will the threat be gone? NO. Will we still be in danger? Yup!

 

Mike

[Guest BadKarma99-4sp]

if yall are so worried about the government taking over,

 

go out and buy yourself two assualt rifles, AK, AR, whatever floats your boat.

 

take one rifle and several thousands rounds of ammo and bury them on your property somewhere.

 

keep the other rifle to practice with.

 

use the burried rifle when we get invaded or bush or kerry(whoever you happen to think the anti-christ is) take away your rights that really matter.

[Heavy Z]

My view is that we will declare we "Won" just as we did with the war on drugs...

 

When did we win the war on drugs and what was declared? I missed it.

 

Last figures I saw showed roughly half the drugs produced worldwide head to America...

[Mikelly]

YOu don't remember Ron Reagan in one of his many speeches saying We are winning the war on drugs????

 

I'm with you Heavy... WHEN did we?

 

Point is, just like the war on drugs, Politicians will tire of the war on terror and it will e declared a victory as well... And we will still have terrorists... Along with drugs...

 

Oh what a wonderful world...

 

Mike

[JKDGabe]

Politicians never tire of power.

[Michael]

I think that even though one might be innocent of the criminal activity that some surveillance/search & seizure law is intended to thwart, one’s dignity as an individual is nevertheless diminished whenever police powers are enhanced.

 

Here is a simple example: Red-light cameras might ticket only those drivers who run red lights, and arguably make the streets safer, while raising revenue for the city (which might otherwise had to have come from taxes). And if you don’t run red lights, you won’t get ticketed, so the cameras should not bother law-abiding citizens, right? Wrong. You are under surveillance, guilty or innocent. I would argue that this is an example of government intrusion; it assaults our dignity and affronts our rights.

 

The issue is NOT whether law enforcement officials are irresponsible, corrupt, or flippant with their powers. Or even, whether some unfortunate mistakes might cause innocent people to be inconvenienced. The issue is the abstract principle: does the government possess such-and-such powers, or does it not? How do we, as a society, balance the need to be safe – whether from criminals within our midst, or foreign enemies – with the need to be free from paternalistic intervention by our government?

 

I would argue (with some oversimplification) that all politicians, all persons in power, would seek to augment their power. Party affiliation, social class, economic background – it doesn’t matter. To use a national tragedy as an excuse to curtail individual liberties and to enhance government power, is the dream of any administration. The Bush administration was just lucky. A tragedy happened on their watch. A horrified, cowed public would gladly accept restrictive laws, if those laws were sold as being “necessary†to “protect†the public.

 

Whenever America has been at war, or even undeclared perception of war, civil liberties have been curbed. It's been that way since the 18th century (Alien and Sedition acts), and the 20th century is rife with such examples. True, in many cases the excesses of government power have been temporary, when a backlash comes to sweep them away. Which indeed suggests, as Mikelly says, that the Patriot Act will be temporary too. But the mere fact that it’s temporary does not prove that it is presently useful, justifiable or sensible.

[JMortensen]

Whenever America has been at war, or even undeclared perception of war, civil liberties have been curbed. It's been that way since the 18th century (Alien and Sedition acts), and the 20th century is rife with such examples. True, in many cases the excesses of government power have been temporary, when a backlash comes to sweep them away. Which indeed suggests, as Mikelly says, that the Patriot Act will be temporary too. But the mere fact that it’s temporary does not prove that it is presently useful, justifiable or sensible.

 

Perfect description of the present situation.

[Moridin]

Zguy' date=' You can take any circumstance, Add emotion, throw away reason, and have a "1984". Do as you wish... I'm quite certain that Uncle Sam Won't be saddling up to my curb with their listening devices, cameras, and opening my mail box. However, if for some reason they found me on their list... I'd COOPERATE and assist them in eliminating me as a suspect in their war on terror... ONLY TERRORISTS and those who support their goal have real reason to fear this act.

 

You guys are killing me... Fan your flames all you want, add as much drama as you need to this... But YOU KNOW, and I KNOW, that there are TO MANY LIBERALS in congress and the senate to let this bill get out of hand. Once this "War" is considered won (Much like Reagan's ill-fated war on drugs), This bill will be killed. But you guys go ahead and pump it up as much as Mr. Kerry needs you to. Bahahaha Bahahaha ("Lambert?" "Dahahaddy!" ) Go ahead, he needs all the help he can get...

 

This reminds me of a bunch of housewives sitting on sofas and watching friggin' soap operas, Crying their eyes out over some fictional character's death... Reality just a little to boring for you guys? 1984? JEEZ!

 

Again, DO YOUR RESEARCH ON FACTS, not some BS FICTIONAL Paperback NOVEL.

 

 

Come on guys, don't be Sheople....

 

There are R-E-A-L reasons NOT to support Bush... They are out there... you guys are being lazy. Don't grab the low hanging (Empty and spoiled) fruit.

 

Mike aka The fence sitter...[/quote']

 

A question about "The Patriot Act" and other civil liberty encroaching bills. I'm only 20, so I know very little about previous ones. Mainly, I'm wondering about the public opposition to those bills enacted during war time. Was there much said by the public? If there was, then I would say its the commotion itself that caused those bills be defeated in the following years after things calmed down. If there wasn't much opposition, then I guess we shouldn't worry too much about it, just like you said.

 

Honestly, I believe 1984 is a very important piece of literature. I believe it teaches one to pay attention to what rights they are giving up to the government. Weren't most of the creators of our constitution very cautious to make sure citizens rights were protected?

 

Lastly, I'm very sure what this assault weapons ban repeal is all about? Doesn't that pose a serious threat to our peace officers, as they can be much more easily out gunned by citizens?

[Pop N Wood]

Lastly, I'm very sure what this assault weapons ban repeal is all about? Doesn't that pose a serious threat to our peace officers, as they can be much more easily out gunned by citizens?

 

No, it doesn't. The "ban" never really did anything. Case in point, the rifle the DC snipers used was stolen from a gun store, where it was being legal sold during the ban.

 

When Clinton was trying to put that law into effect, he commisioned (I think it was) an FBI panel to research the assault weapon issue. His own panel came back and said the US does not have a problem with assault weapons. Look at the small number of crimes that are committed with long guns in general, let alone "assault rifles" and you will see what I mean.

 

He went through with a "feel good" law that banned certain weapons based upon a point system. So many points for a pistol grip, so many more for a bayonet lug. When the points exceeded some number, the gun was "banned". So leave off the pistol grip or bayonet lug and viola! The gun is now "safer".

 

Go figure.

 

About the only thing it really did was ban the manufacture and sale of new magzines with over a 10 round capacity. But there were so many high capacity magazines already in existance that this was a minor inconvenience at best. Drove up the price a few dollars is all, but didn't cut the availability. In fact, most gun manufactures will still ship "pre-ban" high capacity magazines with brand new guns.

[Guest Aaron]

One of the ironies I have read about AWB is that there is some evidence that there are more people carrying concealed weapons in larger caliburs because of the ban. The manufacurers either started making smaller guns or they increased the production of smaller guns (the Kel-Tec P-11, the Glock models 26, 27, 30 are examples), because they were now holding the same capacity as a "full size" handgun. Many people who were already carrying moved up to a larger calibur, and some people began carrying because it was now easier to carry.