buZy Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 Just wondering if anyone has use this type of 'offset' transverse link bushing. The parts are made by G Machine available though MSA. Aluminum and delrin contruction. Also they suggest installing a grease fitting in the pivot? I wonder about the function, life span and matinence of this particular design. Any previous users opinions of this part would be great. Or overall recommendations of other bushings that perform well too. Keep in mind this is a street car. My thought process here is that these bushings will allow some camber adjustment and also slightly lower my front suspension ride height. Here are some pictures. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I used them with good results. Can`t say about total street mileage, but I got 8 or 9 track events on a set before changing over to adjustable front control arms. Did not really see any wear issues when they came off. Adding the grease fitting would be a plus. The inserts can also be purchased seperatly if one wears down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody 82 ZXT Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I've got set on my ZX and they seem to be holding up fine. I've never taken them apart to inspect them but, I have no issues that I know of from them. They proubly have 40,000 plus miles on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I've got set on my ZX and they seem to be holding up fine. I've never taken them apart to inspect them but, I have no issues that I know of from them. They proubly have 40,000 plus miles on them. Same here... I've had a set on my 260 for years now without noticing any wear... but I did do the grease zerk mod, and I'm sure thats been their saving grace.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 Depends on the defenition of "Hard" for street driving... I've had them fail, move out of position, and not hold alignment well... They are aluminum and will wear over time, and the Delrin internal sleeve will crack and degrade with time... If you use sticky tires and hard springs, these issues will cause failure to accelerate. In my opinion, they are junk! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I have a set (custom made, not a G-Machine part) made out of Hydlar that had been in the car and autocrossed, raced, etc. from 1992 to 2003. No problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 I liked mine initially, but a year later I was removing them and replacing them with the OEM bushings. They started to rattle a bit, and I had to place 40 grit sandpaper between the steel saddle and the aluminum barrel due to the barrel moving around during runs. It did wear on the delrin/aluminum interface to the point that the noise was troublesome (and it didn't take much play to do that), even well greased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunlover Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 I always wondered about those moving around.. Seams to me it wouldn't take much to twist them.. but it'd sure be an unwanted/unexpected change in a hight speed turn! In my mind, the more adjustment you build into something, the more.. room for movement/missalignment you leave when the part is in 'service'.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Well a good alternate (Since you already have them) is to take them to a shop and have something more durable made, using these units as the template! John C. could advise here... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 A lot of the problems with harder rear bushings (Aluminum, Delrin, Hydlar, etc.) moving around has nothing to do with the bushings. The mounting points (crossmember and rear caps) often get bent out of round when people tighten then down over the new, harder bushings. Tighter is not better - proper torque is. If the bushing slips try to source a crossmember or rear cap that's perfectly round and/or make some copper shims. And remember, race parts always require more attention and maintenance then street parts. If you run these types of bushings anywhere on your car you should plan on disassembling and inspecting then at least annually. If you're not willing to do this, then don't put them on the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 I always wondered about those moving around.. Seams to me it wouldn't take much to twist them.. but it'd sure be an unwanted/unexpected change in a hight speed turn! In my mind, the more adjustment you build into something, the more.. room for movement/missalignment you leave when the part is in 'service'.. I had these in for years in the back and they were a PITA to move! Really a PITA. I've heard of people using the sandpaper trick like Terry suggests, and I removed/inspected/regreased mine like John suggests. Never had a problem with them moving on my car though, and they never cracked despite years of torture with slicks. They were definitely noisy though, you could really hear them in the back over slight road imperfections. One trick that I don't think is stated in the installation instructions is to file down the end of the control arm so that the arm is just slightly shorter than the bushing. If you just slide the bushing onto the arm in the back, the end of the arm usually pokes out about .005 or .010. So if you just bolt it in, then theoretically the A arm can slide fore to aft that far. By using a large flat file you can take a little off the end of the arm so that the bushing is LONGER than the arm by the same .005 or .010. Then when you tighten the big 24mm bolt on the end the bushing will be compressed instead of just sitting there loose. Now that I think about it this might be part of the reason why these have a reputation for cracking like Mike experienced. Maybe his A-arms were beating the bushings on the washers as he accelerated, then braked, then accelerated.... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katman Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 I hate this design for the front control arms even though people use them for years without apparent problems. For a street car I'd much rather just go poly. The problem I have with them is they force the control arm to pivot about an axis through the centerline of the bushing, when in fact, by virtue of its attachment to the T/C rod, the control arm needs to pivot about said axis AND rotate about an axis parallel to the control arm. So something is being bent, or slop in the bushing is being created, every time the control arm goes up and down. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Or you can machine a bushing, redrill the crossmember, and mount the strut and upper spring perch with a monoball so that the LCA pivots in a nice smooth arc in relation to the TC rod. Amazing how stiction free the front suspension of a 240Z can become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted January 1, 2005 Author Share Posted January 1, 2005 These offset bushings suck!!!! Tried installing them on my links and all I can say is.... What a joke! I'm not using these. Going to energy suspension polys instead. They are only 15 bucks from summit! The others were $69.95 and a waste of time and money. Man they saw me coming. Live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Or you can machine a bushing, redrill the crossmember, and mount the strut and upper spring perch with a monoball so that the LCA pivots in a nice smooth arc in relation to the TC rod. Amazing how stiction free the front suspension of a 240Z can become. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I don't see how this fixes the problem that katman was describing. The TC rod causes the LCA to move in a three dimensional arc, but this bushing design tries to restrict the movement to a plane. I don't see how crossmember redrilling will fix this - you can try to find an orientation puts the plane in the middle of the 3D arc to minimize the misalignment, but this won't make it go away. Also, I've never liked this design for the front because it couples bumpsteer to camber adjustment (i.e., adjusting camber this way will change your bumpsteer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 you can try to find an orientation puts the plane in the middle of the 3D arc to minimize the misalignment, but this won't make it go away. That's what's done. I agree it doesn't eliminate the problem completely but it sure does reduce it. The bolt hole and the bushing outer shell are machined/drilled at different angles and you only get the bind problem at the extreme ends of the front suspension travel. I helps a lot on a lowered race car because you can machine/drill the bushing so that there's almost no stiction through two inches of bump and rebound measured at the wheel. You do have to redrill the holes in the crossmember and they aren't exactly parallel to the vehicle's centerline or level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted January 1, 2005 Author Share Posted January 1, 2005 Camber as to bumpsteer relationships... Wow! I must say you lost me there but what a very interesting conversation indeed! I'm learning.... Thanks everyone! After trail and errors.... I am going with a OEM replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Camber as to bumpsteer relationships... Wow! I must say you lost me there but what a very interesting conversation indeed! I'm learning....Thanks everyone! Because this type of bushing changes camber by moving the inner pivot point for the LCA around, it by definition changes the geometric relationship between the tie rod and the LCA. This will effect the way that your toe changes with suspension travel. This type of bushing also couples camber adjustment with caster, since it also changes the arc that the TC rod must travel through. This one is pretty severe - because of the relationship between the TC rod and the LCA, you end up with something in the neighborhood of a 1:1 change in camber vs. caster (i.e., a 1 degree decrease in camber will result in close to a 1 degree increase in caster, and vice versa). IMHO, it's preferable to keep your adjustments decoupled as much as possible, and there are other ways to adjust camber that do not have these problems (slotting the upper mounting points or camber plates, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted January 1, 2005 Author Share Posted January 1, 2005 Maybe this a another thread but.... What is LCA? ok (Lower Control Arm?) What is bumpsteer is its basic form? Do the tires change toe in angles when the wheels hit a bump? If so, why would any stock maufactured car have any of this built in? From my true lack of knowledge/understanding bumpsteer seems like somthing that should be eliminated so the wheels hold alignment while going over bumps. Or is a little bumpsteer good? I could go on forever on this subject as it is facinating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Because this type of bushing changes camber by moving the inner pivot point for the LCA around, it by definition changes the geometric relationship between the tie rod and the LCA. This will effect the way that your toe changes with suspension travel. That is exactly why I didn't use them on my car in the front. I did use them for a couple years in the back, but I can only imagine that in most Z's adjusting camber in front with offset bushings means that you have different bumpsteer on the LF and RF wheels... ick. Unless your chassis was so straight that both bushings were in exactly the same spot... unlikely at best. LCA=lower control arm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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