What "CHEVY" engine should I use?

[Bartman]

Since the other guys have covered the "I can't believe someone is asking this and not searching" thing' date=' I'll throw in what I would recommend...

 

I can NOT imagine spending a dime on anything OTHER THAN an LS1/ LS6 based motor. They are where all attention is turning in the chevy aftermarket world. I'm currently buttoning up my 383 stroker to get it in the car and running. And I've got a Second LS1 that is being finished up in Jacksonville, Arkansas. I would stuff the LS1 in in less than a heart beat if I could unload my brand new 383 stroker... The LS1 is just SOOO much more tunable, makes so much more power STOCK and is easy to get to make BIG HP. PLUS the motor is 85-90# lighter to start with... I'm all about lightening my car, so That is another pressing issue... Plus, having lived with an LS1 in my daily driver (99 C5 Vette), I'm amazed at the power the thing makes with just bolt ons and the fuel efficiency of the whole package!

 

Mike[/quote']

I was seriously considering doing an LS1 conversion, but there are several factors that caused me to do the LT1 instead.

• Money - Although the cost is coming down an LS1 is more expensive than say an LT1.
  
• Conversion package - Since the LS1 is a completely different animal, you can't use the standard JTR type conversion parts. The conversion parts/kits are more expensive and they are still relatively new. This point can be mitigated if you have the machinery and ability to fabricate your own parts. John's Cars didn't even have a transmission mount that would fit an early model 240Z when I was looking.
  
• Header – another item that is difficult to find for a 240Z LS1 conversion, and expensive.
  

It all boils down to how much you want to spend, what you want, and what you have the capability of doing. The LT1 is a little heavier, has a little less horsepower, but it’s still a pretty darn good engine with pretty decent power. As a bonus I think the LT1 is actually a better looking engine than the LS1 (my humble opinion:coollook: ).

 

If I do another hybrid in the future (I still have another car) I may pick the LS1, but for now an LT1 will work for me.

[cremmenga]

Yes yea the search issue, I have looked at some of the stuff, lol but the questions just were flowing so well. Anyway the guy at the junk yard said he had some 280's but he nor i knew if they had r200's in them, and what all i would need for it to fit in my 72 240z. Don't worry, I'm searching right now.

[awd92gsx]

Cremm,

 

At this point you should seriously consider buying and reading the JTR manual. It's not GREAT, but, it's all there is out there and is "adequate".

 

You can find it at http://www.jagsthatrun.com

 

It should answer many of your questions before you can even think of them.

[pparaska]

BTW, when you do a search, it's preferred to find a good thread on a topic and if you still have questions about the topic in that thread, please ask the question in that thread. That way the searching will become easier for the next person.

 

I'm going to counter Mikelly's opinion on the engine.

 

Now I agree that the LS1 and LS2 are the new kid on the block. One recent magazine was saying the knowledge base for tuning them are about where we were in 1963 (I was 1 year old) with the Gen I SBC. That means the price, variety and shakeout is not as good as where we are today with the Gen I SBC. Sure, the base LS1 and LS2 are superior designs, as far as the block, heads, valvetrain, induction, etc. But the price on the aftermarket go fast parts is not the same as for the Gen I SBC. $800 for a Fast intake manifold??? $2500 for worked heads, after core charge?

 

I say if you have the money, definitely go with the LS1/LS2. It's potential, with the same displacement is somewhat better and the tunability is there too with the EFI to begin with.

 

But now you can build a completely aftermarket Gen I SBC, that includes upgrades from the 1950s original design. If I were starting another engine today, I'd be building a 454 SBC using the newer block castings that allow a 4.25" bore and 4" stroke using the stock deck height. The rods, pistons, etc. are available and affordable. Throw on some AFR 220 or 227 heads, or Canfield 215 or 220 heads and go for it. Roller cam and lifters, fuel injection, etc.

 

With 454 cubic inches (that's 7.4 liters, folks!) you can build an very mild engine that will pull down 500+ hp and 500+ ft lbs. All without exotics stuff too. Go more wild on the build and 600 hp is there.

 

If you want to go much past 362 CI with the LS2, you need to go to the C5R block. Checked the price on that lately?

 

It doesn't matter what engine you begin with really, if you get a good combination of parts in them, you'll be 1.1 to 1.3 hp/ci, depending on how radical you go. So for Normally Aspirated, displacement always rules. Go as big as you can and tune the drivetrain to use the powerband where it needs to be to use the torque/hp curve. Build it big enough and things like Nitrous Oxide, turbos, blowers won't be needed.

 

That said, a 427 LS1 would be it!!!

 

JMO,

[Michael]

I'm with Pete on this one.

 

There is enormous advantage to BUILDING WHAT YOU KNOW. If you built your first engine in 1968, and it was a 327 that you built with your dad, chances are that you could extract more performance - reliably, smoothly and economically - from a Gen I SBC, than from the LS1/2. But, if your first-ever high performance car was a C5 Corvette, and you started using laptop computers before you learned to distinguish a socket wrench from a box wrench, chances are that you would be more comfortable with the LS1/2.

[Guest Magnum Rockwilder]

Give me an old school Chevy SB any day. You can keep the LS1's.

 

I can build an SBC for half the price of an LS1, and put out more power. And as for tuneability, you can't beat a Holley and a master jet kit.

[cremmenga]

I'm not going to use the bottle, it seems that all that ever happens from it is trouble and broken engine parts!! Turbos maybe, my cusin installs turbos/mechanic so i will see what he says. My friends from wyo tech that i just got off the phone wiht said that i should go with a 350 with a smaller crank, then i could get a ton of rpms and horsies. Who knows i'm still with you guys i think, the bigger the better. I was hoping for about around 400hp and i know i'm not going to get an LT1 or LS1. For the money spent on them I too know i could get a much more powerful "oldschool" engine.

[Jolane]

I also agree with Pete, especially if money is of any concern.

I just wanted to add that you probably want a 2-bolt main if you are looking at a 400. Then convert that to 4 bolt using splayed caps. Otherwise, I believe the 4-bolt 400's are weaker and can crack where the outer bolts go in. I had a 400 4-bolt myself in a truck, never a problem, but it was also a truck motor, not a high performance beast. That should make finding a good 400 block easier also.

With that said, I am using a 383. Easy to find a good block, great HP and torque, etc...

Joshua

[cremmenga]

I think the 400 is the way to go also, but i don't know that much. I just think a 400, balanced and blue printed, maybe some aluminuim heads/ roller rockers etc., perf cam that really really lopes! a tall *** manifold, and a race demon carb. and then i could keep in binned up in the garage and feed it hondas, and other rice grinders, maybe an occational buick.

[pparaska]

Why wind a 350 to make the HP that a 400 makes at less rpm? I'll never understand this. Valvetrains are harder to control at higher rpm, thus more expensive and less reliable.

 

Joshua is right about the 2 bolt 400 blocks being stronger. I left mine 2 bolt.

 

With the money it takes to sonic and leak test, and the machining needed to change the 2 bolt to a 4 bolt, the stronger, NEW, purpose made World or Dart 400 blocks make a lot of sense. Plus you can bore them more than the 400 (4.25" on the newer ones), etc., etc. $1800 seems like a lot, but consider what it takes to fully machine a 400 block to get 4 bolts, and the required sonic and leak testing a 400 block needs.

[Jolane]

Pete is very right about machining costs on a block. A new block does make a lot of sense. I wish I had gone this way instead with my buildup.

As for World Products though, I do not want to do any business with them ever again. Maybe someone makes an equivalent block? I don't know what the GM Rocket block can be bored to.

Also consider any additional parts you may want to use (and already own). The flywheel and harmonic balancer are different from the 350 to the 400 (internally versus externally balanced). If you have any of these items already, you may want to stick with that type of engine.

Joshua

[pparaska]

Hmm. That's the second time in two days I've heard bad things about World Products. Dart has a nice block, I hear.

 

If you go to longer rods, one of the benefits is that the rod/piston gets a good bit lighter, lightening the weight to be balanced by the crank, etc. The 400 crank I have is a SCAT 9000 internal balance 3.75" stroke crank for use with 6" rods. The guy who built the short block was amazed at how little he had to take off the crank cheeks to get the balance right on. That way you can use a 6.25 or 7" balancer (for internal balance engines) and an internal balance style flex plate (yuck) or flywheel.

[Mikelly]

I"d counter all the comments against the LS1 by saying I had one built with forged Pistons and Rods, ARP bolts Everywhere, started with a new GM block and a NEW GM Crank and a NEW set of GM heads... We gutted the heads,ported them and installed new valves and complete valve train from http://www.thunderracing.com and I searched the web for the other bits and pieces.. With LGM headers and an LS6 intake w/ Shaner ported Tbody, I'm going ot have a balanced and blueprinted 500+ (Expecting 520-ish) horsepower and close to that in torque. In porting the heads, we left a bit of HP on the table for an even larger cam in the future....

 

My total out of pocket has been $6200 to date and I'm using some of those parts on the Corvette right now... I've seen complete LS1 Motor and tranny setups (T56 or auto) sell for $2000, INCLUDING wiring harness and computer. Hit the yards in the winter when people are desperate for cash... My current LS1 has 114K miles on it, turned 335HP & 353#ft. of torque. To build the "right" 383 stroker or 4** SBC with forged bits and to get it right, my guess is you'll still have well over $4500 in it. PLus you'll not get the drivability or efficiency and predictability with a carb'ed V8.

 

Can you short cut it and use PM rods and cast pistons? Sure... Anyone can. But what do you really plan to do with the car? If you only want 275-325 HP, go for it... Just know what it is you are going to have when the tools are put away and you're coming back to the board asking why it isn't running 12s.

 

Mike

[pparaska]

$6200 for a complete engine with ecu and harness that puts out 500+ hp is definitely nothing to sneeze at! What bore and stroke, compression ratio, cam is used?

[Jolane]

Pete,

I posted elsewhere about my World Products Sportsman heads a few weeks back. I would rather not do business with them again. Dart would be an option though.

I used the exact same crank for my 383, Scat 9000 with 6" rods, internally balanced... with H-Beam rods. The machine shop also mentioned how little they had to remove to get mine balanced also. They seemed to be rather suprised also.

Joshua

[Pop N Wood]

I"d counter all the comments against the LS1 by saying I had one built with forged Pistons and Rods' date=' ARP bolts Everywhere, started with a new GM block and a NEW GM Crank and a NEW set of GM heads... We gutted the heads,ported them and installed new valves and complete valve train from [url']www.thunderracing.com[/url] and I searched the web for the other bits and pieces.. With LGM headers and an LS6 intake w/ Shaner ported Tbody, I'm going ot have a balanced and blueprinted 500+ (Expecting 520-ish) horsepower and close to that in torque. In porting the heads, we left a bit of HP on the table for an even larger cam in the future....

 

My total out of pocket has been $6200 to date and I'm using some of those parts on the Corvette right now... I've seen complete LS1 Motor and tranny setups (T56 or auto) sell for $2000, INCLUDING wiring harness and computer. Hit the yards in the winter when people are desperate for cash... My current LS1 has 114K miles on it, turned 335HP & 353#ft. of torque. To build the "right" 383 stroker or 4** SBC with forged bits and to get it right, my guess is you'll still have well over $4500 in it. PLus you'll not get the drivability or efficiency and predictability with a carb'ed V8.

 

Can you short cut it and use PM rods and cast pistons? Sure... Anyone can. But what do you really plan to do with the car? If you only want 275-325 HP, go for it... Just know what it is you are going to have when the tools are put away and you're coming back to the board asking why it isn't running 12s.

 

Mike

 

Well you definitely have more experience in this field than I so I trust what you say. But in a way you are comparing apples and oranges. $6200 for a brand new engine using known, top quality parts, or much less for a used engine of unkown condition using nothing but factory parts. Also you may find the occasional deal on such an ls1 combo, but current ebay prices are more into the $4k to $6K range depending on mileage, transmission and whether it is from a Vette or F body. Plus how much more will it cost to get 500 reliable HP out of a used $2k factory LS1 set up?

 

On the up side the T56's for the LS1's are cheaper than the LT1 versions since that don't readily fit the old style SBC.

 

My hesitation at using an LS1 is the OBDII requirements. The thought of fitting cats and dual O2 sensors to my 70 240 makes me lean toward an LT1. I know you have talked about aftermarket cats, but the ground clearance on that old car just doesn't seem to be there.

[maichor]

Another vote for LS1. I'm with Mikelly, not just for tunability, but a master jet kit won't solve problems like going from sea level up into the Rockies, poor fuel economy etc. Build what you know is good advice, but this particular thread is for a guy just starting out. In his case, I would say don't dismiss the LS1. Cost is not so bad. I have posted this before in defense of the LS1. I bought a 2001 wrecked WS6 Trans Am for $4500. I sold the rear end, bumper, t-top, leather interior, wheels etc. All in all for an LS1/T56, ECU, with 10K miles it was $2000. That was a couple of years ago. I have about $4000 in the motor, by the time you add all accessories, computer reprogram, ceramic coated headers, intake tubing, fuel lines, etc. I haven't dynoed yet, but should be around 300-320 at the wheels. I think that is very reasonable for getting 26mph, a redline of 6200, and a very, very drivable motor. You are bouncing off the rev limiter before you feel like you have to shift because the motor keeps pulling. I won't go back either!

 

(EDIT) Oh, I also used the fuel tank and pump, gauges, brake booster and master cylinder.

[Mikelly]

Pete, How does approximately 392HP at the crank on a bone stock, tired 114K mile LS1 sound? That is what you can estimate from my dyno numbers back in January. Getting 500Crank HP out of an LS1 is CAKE...

 

We are using larger valves and Dave did a LOT of port work. We have the STOCK BORE and STROKE and our compression ratio will be 10.5:1 with a mild 224/224 114 lsa 556 lift cam. I have ridden in a camaro that has the same setup and he is turning 11s on drag radials in a car that was weighed at the track at 3540# with full tank of fuel and some stereo gear in it. He also turned 445HP at the wheels with the IDENTICAL setup to mine, MINUS the larger valves, injectors and tuning.

 

Add to that the absolute EASE of tuning it, once you have figured the basics out. The ease of driving it, and the ease of maintenance. Here is WHY I'm such a huge fan of this powerplant... EVERY MAJOR aftermarket parts manufacturer is spooling up something for this platform. The LS1 is simply THAT popular. Supposedly SEMA was crawling with tons of LS1/LS2/LS6 aftermarket parts from ALL of the major manufacturers... it is OUR generation small block chevy.

 

Mike

[deMideon]

With what you have available the 400 really is the way to go... more displacement and it still uses the 350 parts, which are cheap and very available. If you can afford it get a new crank and have it internnally balanced, makes it easier to get flywheels and balancers. Watch out about the high intake you mentioned, they won't fit under the hood!

[Mikelly]

Sportin' A Chubby (aka popNwood), My Vette is bone stock except for the LGM headers and 3inch exxhaust... It is old, tired and beat I guess. Maybe I should just pull it and go through it... Nah! That motor uses NO oil, makes good numbers across the board for compression, and it hammers the track days. As long as I could do a compression check on the used motor, I'd be buying a used motor and not worrying any more about it than about buying any other used motor.

 

As for ground clearance on catalytic converters... The SLP units are very tiny, and the Random Cats are even smaller. I don't think it would be any more of a concern than anything else dealing with putting anything in a Datsun Z...

 

Boils down to preference. But I've got TWO Ls1 projects and a conventional SBC built on a four bolt main block (Just installed the new TCI rattler balancer on it a few minutes ago) and if I could sell the 383 stroker, I'd not batt an eye about putting the LS1 in it.

 

That motor is the future of chevy hotrodding...

Mike