Sunday's F1 Race @ INDY !!!??

[2126]

Thanks MICHELIN!!! Do you think the political BS, in F1, has reached the point of deminishing returns? Yah, who cares if the fans payed big bucks to see the only USA Formula 1 race....and instead got to witness a Ferrarri practice session! I know I always get excited when there are only 6 cars on the start grid!!! What's your take on Sunday's F1 race?

[JMortensen]

I missed the race, but caught some of the qualifying. So I guess that means that they pulled all the cars on Michelins? Ouch.

 

Did you see last year's USGP? Watching Ralf back into the wall at 200 mph and then sit there for 2 minutes with no corner workers or emergency people even attempting to get to him was probably enough of a motivator for them to make that call.

 

I guess if I had to miss a GP, I missed the right one.

[Drax240z]

As far as I can see the only ones at fault were Michelin...

[preith]

I watched the beginning of the race in disbeleif. It's amazing how Michelin was so quick to point blame at everyone esle when it was entirely their fault. This has to be one of the biggest blunders of all time.

 

Apparently there was a test session earlier this year that NONE of the Michelin F1 teams went to. Also, the oval was repaved this year, but I guess the contractor did a really bad job and they had to bring a diamond grinder in and this consequently increased the traction greatly because of the grooves. They suspect this was part of the reason they had problems. Some of the guys on speed speculated that tire test info from Firestone trickled over to the Bridgestone guys and they were able to compensate for this.

[SBC_400]

well, I was there in the turn 6 terrace when all the cars left the grid before the start.

 

I say everyone is to blame for not coming to some sort of agreement.

 

michelin was in a bad place. there were alot of tire failures, and ralph backied into the wall in the same place that he did last during practice due to a tire failure.

 

and if I had a product that might fail in a high speed turn, IMS is tha last place I would want it to happen. the track workers, the owners and the saftey crews are all a joke.

 

and the idea of puting in a lst minute chicane is worthless for so many reasons.

 

michelin did fly in a new batch of tires for race day, but FIA woudl not let them change, due to protests. ferrari had everthing to loose by letting that happen.

 

all in all, the worst part was all that was on track were two of the best cars in the field, and the 4 worst. ferrari menardi and jordan. the two ferraris jsut followed each other around, and there were nothing but unforced errors by the other two teams.

[speeder]

I was there, and left in disgust after the shock of reality set in. I thought there was going to be a riot - The whole place was reverberating with chants of "Bullsh1t! Bullsh1t! then booing, and water bottles were being thrown on the track. I envisioned a soccer-style set-to with all those South Americans and Europeans present.

 

My understanding is that Michelin was genuinely concerned about safety after Ralf's crash Friday, and recommended replacement of the suspect tires (which were flown in Friday night, and , from Indy television, were mounted and ready to go that night), or, putting a chicane in to increase the safety factor at that point on the track.

 

Ferrari voted against the chicane idea, but so did FIA. FIA could have mandated a chicane over anyone's objections. They also could have allowed all teams to change tires (To be fair to the non-Michelin teams) and then go race. If any blame is assigned, it should be on Ecclestone and his iron fist enforcement of rules. FIA's handling of this situation was the biggest factor in the creation of the fiasco.

 

This whole episode demonstrates FIA's total desregard for the fans. It will probably be the end of the USGP - Which is already suffering from low interest in the US - I know that many in attendance this year are of the "stick it up your hiney" persuasion for any future GPs. I'm one of those.

[speeder]

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html

 

http://www.michelin.com/corporate/actualites/en/actu_affich.jsp?id=15410&lang=EN&codeRubrique=4

 

You be the judge.

 

Sounds like Bullsh1t to me.

[b__sosick]

What an outrage.

 

 

One more reason to hate the french.

[BayAreaZT]

I was pretty disapointed sunday. I ordered speed channel 10 minutes before the race just to watch it. Couldn't feel sorry for myself though because I knew there were people there who took a week off work and spent hundreds of dollars to watch the race. Both sides had valid concerns but I think it comes down to this.

 

"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race."

 

Sure Ferrari might have voted against a chicane but why should they agree to it and comprimise their advantage. If a team showed up with a motor that was prone to blow, should the other teams be forced to slow down to accomodate the suspect car? I hope this isn't the end of Formula 1 in the US.

[hat1324]

you guys should of let me know you were coming in town, coulda helped with the hotels and I have friends in speedway where you coulda parked or kept your stuff anyway..

[Scottie-GNZ]

As far as I can see the only ones at fault were Michelin...

Agree with this statement 1000%. They simply failed to build a tire for the track and a track that their teams have competed on for years. As for the chicane, I agree with the FIA to not put one in in despite the fact that it would have been the best thing for the fans. How would you feel if you went to race and the sanctioning body adjusted the rules on the fly to suit your competitor because they were not prepared? That is what the FIA would have been doing to the Bridgestone cars.

 

How about Ecclestone's comment in a discussion on Danica's Indy 500 showing?

 

"You know, I've got one of these wonderful ideas that women should be all dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances,". Hmmmmmm!

[Mikelly]

I was far more upset that Chevy's ROMP at the 24 hours de' Lemans was over-shadowed by the stupidity that has become F1. I checked out about 6 years ago and just DON'T watch anymore.

 

Now lets talk about those Vettes kickin' arse in Europe!

 

Mike

[2126]

I was far more upset that Chevy's ROMP at the 24 hours de' Lemans was over-shadowed by the stupidity that has become F1. I checked out about 6 years ago and just DON'T watch anymore.

 

Now lets talk about those Vettes kickin' arse in Europe!

 

Mike

I agree with ya Mike! Those Vettes did their usual rear end kicking for sure.

[Chaparral2f]

"You know, I've got one of these wonderful ideas that women should be all dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances,". Hmmmmmm!

 

Like the comentator on FSN said. Maybe he should tell that to Shirley Mulldowney [sp]

[Moridin]

I was far more upset that Chevy's ROMP at the 24 hours de' Lemans was over-shadowed by the stupidity that has become F1. I checked out about 6 years ago and just DON'T watch anymore.

 

Now lets talk about those Vettes kickin' arse in Europe!

 

Mike

 

The team I worked for last year took 3rd in class at their first showing this year...WOOO!!!

 

And those Vette's are awesome. The Aston's put up a hell of a fight though. I wish Ford would get the Ford GT and their Mustang involved again. That would be great for their company. Same goes for Nissan, Toyota, and many other manufacturers. With the demise of Group C, it has just been Audi for several years. At least Porsche is getting involved with the prototype stuff again with Penske. Oh...and too bad Dyson couldn't go. They always put up a hell of a fight with the Audis throughout the year. I think they would have done better than the Pescaloro's and maybe even won the thing (especially with the loss of 100HP and 50kg weight gain).

 

Anyway, I think Michelin did the right thing. I worked with (actually, along side. I didn't do much more than get tires mounted, and make sure the tires and wheels were ready for track time) Michelin tire engineers in the ALMS and they were always concerced about the construction of the tire as it pertains to the safety of the cars. Any tire failures (very few) were taken back right away to be analyzed. I even had the chance to meet and work with one of the engineers who worked with McLaren or Williams (can't remember) and their Michelin tire development. Extremely bright people. Knowing what I know about them, and the little I know about Eccelstone and the FIA, there should have been some sort of agreement to make things safe and fair. The U.S. has a huge market for racing (mainly soaked up by NASCAR), but its there and with this debacle, I believe F1 has pushed themselves out of any share, period.

 

Maybe, just maybe, IRL will dissolve with Chevy pulling out, and more than likely Toyota too in the next few years, we will see a CART step it up again. F1 engine developement is extremely expensive. I believe CART owns Cosworth too...maybe a multi-manufacturer Cosworth backed engine program could do something.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Dp351zcar]

I have seats in the front row of the stands looking right out at the first turn and I'll be renewing them tonight or tomorrow. I can see the problem from all sides and haven't figured out who's at fault yet. Michelin is the one really at fault for not having a tire that would stand up to it. All though you do have to respect the size of their kahoonies(sp?) for admiting it and telling everybody they had an inferior product. I fully belive when they came over to race they thought they had a good tire.

I understand that they could not replicate the problem until early sunday morning, then when they could replicate the conditions they found that their backup tire had the same problems.

I have had those seats from the start of F1 at Indy (ok I know, starting in 2000) and I will keep them as long as I can. No I didn't go this year, I sold them and I'm kinda glad.

 

Just my thoughts. I really doubt this would happen again.

 

Don

[stony]

I came in about halfway thru. And was wondering about all the talk it took about 5 minutes of watching before I found out what was going on. I came in right as pit stops were happening when shummie almost took out barricelo coming out of the pits. THAT would have been hilarious.

 

Loosing intereste quick

[speeder]

Aww,

 

You guys are probably right about "rules is rules" and "you better come prepared to race" - I was looking at this from a (pissed-off) fan's viewpoint rather than a sanctioner/competitor's.

 

Pretty tangled political conditions here, though. I'm just starting to hear that Michelin's replacement tires were no better than the originals - It was a design problem rather than a manufacturing defect. Further, it appears that Michelin didn't do their homework and make changes to allow for the newly refinished oval area, specifically turn 13. Of course, Bridgestone, as Firestone's (supplier of spec IRL tires) parent company, had data that was probably not available to Michelin. I find it hard to believe that this was gross negligence on Michelin's part.

 

Adding the chicane was not an acceptable solution, so the only other alternative would be to cancel the race. No matter what the cause, the race as a meaningful competitive event was seriously compromised.

 

That said, my impressions of my first F1 event are that it is not as satisfying to spectate as ALMS or Rolex Grand Am racing - There is no going into the paddock/garages/pit area to scope out cars and/or drivers, tickets and everything are expensive. I do have to say that seeing an F1 car attacking the course is a real experience in person. You just don't get the full impact of these cars' handling and braking abilities on TV.

 

My group was unanimous in saying that next year we will go to PLM or Sebring instead.

 

Hey, how 'bout those American Vettes at Le Mans? Boo-Ya!

[Jsquared]

First of all, how the hell is the C6-R win a "romp"? They were losing most of the race and were slower than the Astons, the win was handed to them when the Astons pushed too hard and broke. And they're not really a "Corvette" either (same goes with every car in that class since Chrysler gave Vipers to ORECA so the French would fudge the rules in their favor), they have an LS2-based engine and that's about it.

 

 

 

Anyway, onto the politics of F1. Being a follower since elementary school and knowing some people that have "ins" in F1 and international motorsports... I place the large portion of the blame on Bernie. People have been calling for his head for well over a decade because he runs the show like a self-centered 12-year-old. GREED is at the center of his decisions, not the good of the sport. This weekend just made that more abundantly clear.

 

I can't see how anyone can blame Michelin. They're the top tire manufacturer in international motorsports, they aren't exactly a bunch of shadetree mechanics. Take into account all the factors that came together at Indy... lack of testing time, repaving of the track, Turn 13 being the ONLY banked high-speed corner in the F1 circuit, etc. The cars were going much faster this year. The grip was higher. The g-loadings were different. The tire formulas for this year are COMPLETELY different from previous years since they have to last the entire course of a race. There weren't "lots of accidents," only two. Only with two teams. The other Michelin teams had zero problems. The Bridgestone teams had no problems, but then again they are on the slowest cars in the field (Ferrari is certainly not a front-runner this year, mid-pack machinery at best).

 

Do you guys have any idea how many different solutions to the issue were thought of that the FIA rejected? Michelin flew in replacements only for the unused tires, and not in more-advantageous compounds. That was rejected. The idea for everyone to get new tires was rejected. They suggested adding a temporary chicane before Turn 13... the Bridgestone teams agreed to allow the chicane, and IMS management agreed to put one in before the race started. Only Ferrari withheld... which is typical for those Italian underhanded twits (anyone who knows the competition history of the company and the personality of Enzo knows exactly what I'm talking about), just like the fact that they're the only team who likes the upcoming Concorde Agreement. The FIA not only told IMS that they couldn't add a chicane, but that their sanctioning would be in jeopardy if they added one due to the teams' wishes. The Michelin teams even agreed to sacrifice any championship points to the Bridgestone teams when the FIA said the chicane would make the course a non-championship no-points event. These are only the solutions that were made public. Bernie simply refused to compromise or find an equitable solution. Hell, EVERYONE except Ferrari had agreed to the chicane and the points consequences, even the track staff, but Bernie said "no."

 

The issue here is not that one team wanted a competitive advantage over another, the issue was DRIVER SAFETY. Ralf Schumacher broke his back last year, and had a similar incident, and thank God was unhurt (great portion of that due to the new barriers). Imagine if that were to happen in race traffic during a passing maneuver. Understand why Michelin was hesitant to let their tires run, even though there were no discernable defects in the tires as of race day? Erring on the side of caution and on the side of safety. The issue is not that there was a disagreement over how to handle the situation, the issue is that Bernie wields absolute power over the entire sport, and greed has caused this egotistical basketcase to make one foolish decision after another. One man using the sport for personal gain circumvented the desires of the people who ARE the sport. Ferrari notwithstanding, ALL PERSONNEL AND ORGANIZATIONS were in agreement on a way to continue the race, until that proposal was shot down by Bernie, Max, and Co. And Ferrari withholding is nothing new, their company has a rich history of using political bull$#!+ for their team's benefit, be it F1, endurance racing, etc. But I can guarantee you that if the FIA had allowed the suggestion of the other ten teams, Ferrari would have followed suit and run the race without complaining. To give you an idea of how the teams felt, one needed only see the body language of everyone in the paddock, even the Bridgestone teams. Minardi won more points in this race than they might have scored in a full season in years past... and the first time that the camera pointed to Paul Studdart on pit lane during the race, he shook his head and gave the thumbs-down.

 

I sincerely hope that this is the catalyst that helps destroy Bernie Ecclestone's iron-fist control of the FIA and Formula One. He has exploited the sport for far too long. The near-fascist handling of the legal and technical aspects of F1 has been ridiculous. They even banned BAR for two races (before repealing) simply because BAR publicly questioned the penalty levied against them for the fuel-cell incident. Anything that irks Bernie or Max gets you "investigated" and possibly fined. Yet Bernie likes to criticize everything with impunity, even going to the point of saying, in the middle of a downtown Indianapolis street where nearly every visible person was wearing a shirt/hat/etc of an F1 team, that he thought the F1 in the US "wasn't being received well enough." Hello? This was the biggest (or third-biggest, I forget) venue, as far as spectator number, all season. I am sure that the manufacturers were not pleased with this event, and that the GPWC proposal is seeming to be a much better solution to the upcoming Concorde Agreement each day.

 

EDIT: I just read the FIA's official statement on the race, and HOLY F$%# THAT IS A CROCK OF BULL. If anyone was watching on SPEED, the Williams engineer explained it pretty well why putting a speed limit on Turn 13 with no physical barrier is an absurdity beyond comprehension. The drivers are paid to maintain and gain position, and they are the results of years upon years of fierce competition and pushing the limit. To ask a world-class race driver to voluntarily hold his speed down through one corner in the heat of a race is an idiotic suggestion at best. Do you honestly think that drivers of such a fiercly competitive nature could limit themselves, especially when another driver lets himself go a touch faster to gain a few tenths of a second? It would be less than ten laps before they would all be going flat-out. Ever read about the Red Bull driver search test at Paul Ricard? The corners had oversized aprons that were painted green (or was it blue?) to represent the end of the track, even though the pavement continued. Even with the drivers knowing that time penalties would be placed on those who shorted the course, once the first driver touched a wheel over the green, the other drivers were too, so as not to lose that marginal advantage, and by the end of the session the cars were almost completely crossing into the "off-track" paved area. It is simply unfathomable to make a suggestion simply from the driver's psycological point of view, much less the safety point of view. The safety point of view? How safe do you think a 150 km/h speed differential would be around Turn 13 (and the subsequent speed differential in the braking zone for Turn 1) during race conditions? The FIA claims that the team owners' request (INCLUDING JORDAN AND MINARDI, which the FIA release conveniently omits) would cause legal issues in the case of an indicident... how much less do they think their own idiotic proposal would have cost? The fact that the FIA announcement makes an insulting stab at the teams ("apparently, none of the teams brought back-up [tires] to Indianapolis") is just fuel to the fire. This is an OUTRAGE. Bernie should not just be released from his position, he should be stabbed in the balls and dragged behind a slow-moving S-class throughout London (the place Max Mosley made his decisions from -- completely removed from the event).

[Mikelly]

"First of all, how the hell is the C6-R win a "romp"? They were losing most of the race and were slower than the Astons, the win was handed to them when the Astons pushed too hard and broke. And they're not really a "Corvette" either (same goes with every car in that class since Chrysler gave Vipers to ORECA so the French would fudge the rules in their favor), they have an LS2-based engine and that's about it."

 

???

 

Like the Asten Martins are Stock??? PuHlEASE... It's called an endurance race... You didn't see Chevy boohooing when they lost at Seabring or Daytona... I don't think anyone had ANYTHING handed to them. The Asten Martin is a formidable opponent, but they lost... They broke their cars and that caused them to lose time... That's endurance racing.

 

Mike