Leading Synthetic Oils

[DemonZ]

Pop-n-wood, wrote:

 

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I plainly said it's about economics, --is synthetic "worth" the added cost?-- So what don't you get? I defined what I meant by "better" as in technically better, and now you bounce back with that?

 

 

What's funny to me is how people try and change the subject and fail at seeing a fairly basic argument.

 

 

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What study would that be?

 

 

Yes M1 is ~$4X dino. And If I change syn. 2-3x less than dino with less frequent filter changes, I am almost breaking even. Syn also saves me the cost of wrenching on the car more than I want. The risk of extended intervals is minimal since the studies clearly show that synthetics did not degrade terribly even at 12k. Filter changes are more a function of topping off effects than a cloggy filter. Most contaminants are below filtering size, and oil analysis shows the benefits of oil top-off.

 

 

You asked me how I defined "better". I did. You say I ignored cost. I have not. In fact I said it was about economics. Wrong on both counts. You want to go for three?

[Bartman]

I'm not seeing anyone talke about horsepower gains. For the most part, everyone on this site wants to get the most horsepower possible out of our engines. If you can get a couple more horsepower out of switching to synthetic oil, it's a cheap upgrade.

 

Maybe some of you just don't believe you can actually gain horsepower just by switching to synthetic?

 

For me it's a no brainer. More horsepower, less engine wear, more miles between oil changes, etc.

 

P.S. - I'm running Mobil 1 extended performance

[260DET]

From some observation a full synthetic is essential for a turbo motor, specifically for the turbo itself and particularly if the turbo is not water cooled.

 

For example, a friend of mine has run a RB30ET engine with the crappy original bush bearing turbo using Mobil 1 for more than 40,000 hard klm, including a lot of track work, without touching the turbo or the engine. I've changed over to Shell Helix full synthetic, simply because Shell products seem to work well and are moderately priced. We'll see.

[Pop N Wood]

What's funny to me is how people try and change the subject and fail at seeing a clear argument.

 

I sure hope that wasn't directed at me.

 

I am sure your arguments are very clear to you. But you are only looking at part of the problem.

 

I am 100% certain the engine on my Toyota will outlive the life of the chassis. 8 years old, 85K miles, engine run likes a top and the body is banged to ****. I figure in 8 more years when the truck has 130K miles on it, the engine will still be running fine, but the truck will look so bad even I won't want to own it anymore.

 

So tell me, what advantage do I have to keep the engine running beyond that? What is your clear argument for that?

 

And from what I can tell, the above applies to the overwhelming majority of drivers. 98% of my neighbors don't keep a car beyond 3 years. What is their clear incentive to go from $10 an oil change to 20 or 30? Is the trade in value on their upside down lease going to skyrocket because they have a fistful of overpriced oil change receipts?

 

Your arguments are a solution in search of a problem. That is the entire point of my argument. Dino oil allows my engine to do everything I want it to do. Why **** with it? Why try to fix something that isn’t broke?

 

I work as a defense contractor. I design and build weapon systems that the government pays billions of dollars for. Systems that can be used to target and deliver weapons of mass destruction. Seems like cost is the last of their worries. Yet as an engineer evaluating cost some how manages to consume an incredible portion of my time. In many cases it is the most demanding trade I have to make. Why do you suppose that is?

 

Cost is always and issue, and in many cases it is the key discriminator. Yet that makes the problem too difficult for most people to evaluate so they often resort to such simple minded arguments like “this is betterâ€.

 

Have fun enjoying your “added protectionâ€. I will give the money I save to Jim Beam instead. Let’s see who has the bigger smile on his face after that.

[Mikelly]

I give mine to Jack Daniels...

 

Come on guys, let's keep it fun and civil, while being lively!

 

Mike

[DemonZ]

Yeah it was directed at you. You were the one who attacked my POV, and so I'm defending it.

 

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So tell me, what advantage do I have to keep the engine running beyond that? What is your clear argument for that?

And from what I can tell, the above applies to the overwhelming majority of drivers. 98% of my neighbors don't keep a car beyond 3 years. What is their clear incentive to go from $10 an oil change to 20 or 30?>>>

 

 

 

You are sidetracking the argument outside of it's scope.

 

 

 

If your main focus for your vehicle is NOT performance, I can see your point. However most here are indeed performance oriented, and suffice it to say if you and your neighbors LOVE, changing the oil of your cars, grease underneath your fingernails, and saving $20-40 bucks a year so you can buy your Jim Beam, knock yourself out. I'd rather pass.

 

 

 

 

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By that same logic, why change anything at all? Why change to wider wheels, or change for a less restrictive exhaust? If best case scenario was factory fresh, then we'd all be SOL. For many, myself included, the synthetic oil proposition is very attractive: extra protection, extended drain intervals, at marginal extra cost.

 

 

 

Strike 3, have another JB.

 

Cheers!

[Synlubes]

It is a "at what price" vs "do I need it" issue. A choice!

 

I use synthetics because I have seen the difference quality lubricants make in 25 years of turning wrenches and playing in motorsports.

I spend good money to put something together right; I will spend good money to protect it.

Don’t forget about air & oil filtration, fuel dilution and moisture.

All of these and more play a very important part in any lubricants serviceable life.

Educate yourself so you can make informed choices.

One thing to look at is full synthetics are designed in a lab to operate within certain parameters.

Petroleum oils / semi-synthetics are pumped from the ground and chemicals added so it can be a useable lubricant.

Not all lubes are made the same.

 

There is a simple & informative test you can do on what ever lubes you choose to see how they hold up.

 

An oil analysis

 

The tests return a good amount of data as to what’s going on inside the engine, not just the properties of the lubes.

Do a test at the beginning & end of your oil usage to get good start & end data.

You might even find some other issues with your equipment.

[rudypoochris]

It seems that if a person were to pay jiffy lube 3 times to do a dino oil change vs 1 time to do a synthetic oil change you would be saving money. Also IMHO since I believe time is money, saving the time that is usually spent doing an oil change definetly offsets the cost increase, if there even is an increase... That is just my opinion. Plus you get more protection, some hp, and an oil that simply doesn't break down...

 

IDEA!

 

What about those ultra high powered magnets in a synthetic oil. Most of the contaminents were metalic in the link I read between amsoil and mobil 1. If those super magnets can gather the contaminents right out of the synthetic i think the oil could go on forever (not acctually just really long). All you would need is some topping off and a filter every 10k miles. This still wouldn't work for non-magnetic metals (whats the word ferros?).

[Pop N Wood]

This Manhattan is tasting pretty sweet.

 

How's that added protection treating you guys?

[DemonZ]

Added protection is tasting fine, especially considering I don't have grease from my last oil change falling into my drink.

[savageskaterkid]

Well, my best frends dad is an Amsoil Dealer and now my frend is too. His dad runs Amsoil in every thing he has, and if you just look under the oil cap, look at the springs and valves, they look brand new-it cleans the engine out very well. And if you don't like doing oil changes, Amsoil has a new product that can last upto 30,000 miles, and my frends dad does tests on the oil every 3k miles-and it looks just as good as the last time. And this guy is very picky when it comes to oil. He says the stuff is so great that he uses it as 2-stroke oil, and (no ****, i've seen him do it) he'll even mix it in with his 4 stroke gas, becuz he says it feels that much better when he puts it in his lawnmower.

[Mikelly]

OIl brands are as hot a topic as women. GUys there is plenty of data out there to support spending good money on certain vehicles. The toyota rustbox Commutor that Pop mentions is one kind of exception (And there are many, just ask in threads like this) where spending that extra money on extra protection is senseless to the owner.

 

In my Vette, and in the Datsun, I'll use group 4/5 synthetics. In my wife's BMW I use group 4/5 sythetics. In my Dodge HD Cummins Turbo diesel I used Shell oil Rotella... However, in any commutor car, and especially in hondas, I use the cheapest crap I can throw into them. Why? Those cars are utilitarian and serve me one purpose... Getting there the cheapest. So they get crappy gas and cheap oil and they don't seem to mind it, so long as I keep good filters on and change everything with regular frequency and keep it in a good tune... My dad does the same thing with every ford festiva crapbox he has commuted in over the years. He's logged over 600K miles on one of them... With cheap gas and cheaper oil... Hard to argue that, isn't it?

 

Mike

[EZ-E]

I think Mikelly said it best with what he just described. No matter what the argument, there is nothing that can prove that synthetic isnt better. That is fact and not fiction, in all aspects synthetic is a better oil.

 

The use and need for it though seems to be of concern, and like I said before MIkelly is right in the fact that it depends on the use. In my turbo it is all i will use, I use the M1 15/50w.

 

In the new 325 it gets M1 0/40w, and like Mikelly said in the Honda beater, it gets 1.19 Mobil 10/30w.

 

Now what I dont see is where everyone is getting all these "HIGH" prices from.

 

At Wal-Mart, 5 quart jug of M1 costs me 19.95. So it really isnt that expensive at all.

[DemonZ]

A few JB's changed my mind. I like getting my hands dirty every chance I get. Synthetics suck! I'm saving my pennies from now on for alcohol!

 

 

In my inebriated state, I recall in the PHd paper, the M 0-40 was somewhat different enough from it's siblings 5-30 that it's probably not purely due to added viscosity modifiers. M 0-40 was a couple notches better than the rest of it's family members in several categories. I thought that was weird, but I didn't argue with the numbers. So that's what I put in the 2001 Honduh, even though it "requires" 5-20.

 

 

Many years ago, before M 0-40 was available, when I purchase my used miata with 77k. I tested both M 15-50 and M 5-30 at least 4 times during the next few years. What I discovered was: no detectable change in fuel economy and consistently 2 mph higher top speed with the heavier oil. Therefore I don't think the higher windage oil can be that bad.

[jnjdragracing]

We run Royal Purple motor oil , racing 21 blend of synthetic. I also run my engine a quart low. I have had no problems and wear is limited.

[Nismo280zEd]

seems like i really started the fire with this one.

 

I guess I should mention I run synthetic only and will not ever switch. Judging by my own experience with engine tear downs, synthetic is MY personal choice.

 

Having said that, I found data only with amsoil, it appears to be the only oil up there with mobil one fully synthetic. As you said Mike Kelly, I can buy the mobil at my local walmart on my way home from work, where as Amsoil is downtown Houston, or shipping charges. However you guys did get kinda sidetracked, I think only two people answered what weight they run in their Z.

 

To add to the flame what filter do you run? I used to run Mobil one filters, I now run K&N oil filters.

-Ed

[Mikelly]

Based on some research I did (I really shouold have documented this one... ) with cutting up about $200 worth of oil filters, I found that WIX, AC Delco, FOMOCO, Purolator and K&N are all constructed very well. The factory OEM filters from Ford, Chevy and Dodge seem to be made of similar construction as well. We cut open 14 filters and the only two we found at the time with what I would consider inferior internal construction were Fram and the Walmart house brand filters, using waxed cardboard for some of the internals, and a paper filtering agent.

 

Now, where the devil gets into the details is in the number of microns filtered. The guy I was working with from work, real brainiac kid, went over seas with all that data and I lost contact with him. The factory filters and the K&N unit were the only units that filtered and caught 60 Microns. We skewed things when I threw in my Canton filter insert from one of my cannisters. It filtered to eliments 75% smaller. We're talking particles you can't see with your eyes. Like I said, this kid was nuts about this stuff and had a degree in bio-chemistry. He was also a car guy. But the other filters from Purolator and Wix did very well. The cheapo filters didn't do "Bad" in the sense that they filtered down to reasonably small particles, but the construction of the filter was my concern.

 

I bought a bunch of Amsoil filters when I became a dealer, and eventually cut one open to find it constructed similarly to the K&N and OEM filters. I don't know what the micron rating is off the top of my head, but my conclusion was the added money spent on the K&N and Amsoil were not required if you were able to get the OEM filters. The Factory filters are about 1/3rd the price and do as well as the "gucci" brands...

 

YMMV!

Mike

[Pop N Wood]

Fram Tough Guard. $4.50 at Wally world

 

Rated at 98.6% efficient at the 20 micron size according to the ISO 16889 test method (multi- pass efficiency). A higher efficiency rating than the Mobil 1 (96%) or the K & N filter at more than 3 to 6 times the cost

 

BTW, someone did just what you said Mike and cut a whole bunch of filters apart and commented on the apparent quality of each. Don’t have the link, but IIRC he liked the Tough Guard. Not to be confused with the budget Fram Extra Guard at half the price, which the guy didn’t like.

 

This study

 

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/

 

is a little better in that they also compare the filtering capability of each filter, where as the other guy did not.

 

A $4.50 filter and 5 quarts of Shell dino oil from Costco at a buck a quart. That much more left for Jim….

 

Hey. If you guys really have a personal relationship with your vehicles, why not use these filters?

 

http://www.cmfilters.com/spin-on.cfm

 

Isn't your car worth a $100 oil filter?

[EZ-E]

Actually if you take a Fram filter apart, either the extra gaurd or the tough gaurd you will see that the filter media is held together by glued piece of cardboard to the aformentioned.

 

To me I havent seen a cheaper made filter in my life. Now on that note I use Motorcraft filters, which is really strange they there filters are better concidering they basically come from the same company.

 

As we all know Ford owns Motorcraft, Autolite, Fram and the list goes on.

[desert dog]

I use Valvoline in all my vehicles. The turbo car gets 10W-30 synthetic, the air cooled motorcycle get 20W-50 Racing, the old truck gets 10W-40 All-Climate, and the Malibu gets 10W-30 All-Climate. The Gen III motor I put in my 240Z will get broken in with 10W-30 All-climate, and thereafter it will be 10W-30 synthetic.

 

In 27 years I have never had an oil related breakdown, and have only had to tear down one engine using Valvoline. I was very impressed that it had in excess of 100,000 miles and it had very little carbon buildup.

 

Mike