European/Italian Cars

[rudypoochris]

For those who have driven Italian spec cars I have a question. How do they make the engines so responsive and light. (I am guessing flywheel weight but is there something more?). I really enjoy driving my families fiat station wagon, the shifter is smooth but positive, the engine loves to rev and has a sweet note, the steering is overly boosted but somehow maintains a good feel for the road, the clutch is like a toy takes as much effort as the gas, the car doesn't lean through the curves but has a nice smooth ride. Whats up, I have never driven an American car that has felt this way. Maybe I just havent had a chance to drive the right American market cars (ive never really driven a performance american car other then an M3). Why do italian cars feel so much better, and how can I make my car feel the same? Please only reply if you have driven a car prepped for the Italian or similar european market. ie American spec BMWs don't count! Thanks!

[Guest ON3GO]

i drive ferraris, alfas, fiats, and other euro based cars like porsches and etc all day long at work.

lots of the engine internals are very light and well balanced, thats why they rev up so quick.

not all italian cars rev up slow, alfas take forever it seems.. alot of they have heavy flywheels and not that great of engines.. the GTV6 was a good model though.

after building a porsche engine i must say theres lots of fine details and specs on those engines. parts are light, balanced correctly, have weight in all the right areas but man o man the oil leaks lol.

 

ive driven a 302 chevy that was almost as smooth though. he said it was lightly modded but a lightly modded old chevy 302 is a bad mofo and man did that sucker rap out fast!

 

mike

[Mike C]

They have a tiny reciprocating assembly. 5.0 litre V12 for instance, with an 8000 rpm redline. And usually pretty steep compression rations. A serious high rpm V8 can rev up like that, but it's not as driveable as the larger number of cylinders. Two different ideas about how to get there. All of those extra cylinders, valves (especially since a lot are 4 valve per cylinder DOHC.) and to price and complexity. 48 valves in a 12 cylinder Ferrari, 16 in a Z06. Ferrari is 5 liters, Z06 is seven. Both make 500 hp. That's the real number to focus on! One of the amazing things about the Z06 is the power it makes without multi-valve cylinder heads and OHC. This keeps the price way down. And should help in reliability is well both because fewer parts are used, and a lower rpm to achieve same power output.

[Mikelly]

Come on Mike C. You know that piece of junk made by Chebby isn't worth a comparo Like that! :lmao:

 

Mike K.

[rudypoochris]

They have a tiny reciprocating assembly. 5.0 litre V12 for instance, with an 8000 rpm redline. And usually pretty steep compression rations. A serious high rpm V8 can rev up like that, but it's not as driveable as the larger number of cylinders. Two different ideas about how to get there. All of those extra cylinders, valves (especially since a lot are 4 valve per cylinder DOHC.) and to price and complexity. 48 valves in a 12 cylinder Ferrari, 16 in a Z06. Ferrari is 5 liters, Z06 is seven. Both make 500 hp. That's the real number to focus on! One of the amazing things about the Z06 is the power it makes without multi-valve cylinder heads and OHC. This keeps the price way down. And should help in reliability is well both because fewer parts are used, and a lower rpm to achieve same power output.

 

But.... I was trying to build my car to feel more european, not feel more american. It already is recieving a ford 302 with push rods, now I want it to feel more nimble. Just wondering if it is possible. I realize you believe the goal is to get a certain HP or torque, but for me the feel is just as important if not more. Drive a modern POS fiat, that is the feeling I want, except with torque.

[Heavy Z]

I come from a family that is into Italian cars (15 between us) and I can tell you from experience your 302 Z is going to rev up quicker than any we ever owned. When you put a big engine in a light car it will get to redline a lot faster than you think, keep going the way your headed and you'll be fine.

[Pop N Wood]

Drive a modern POS fiat, that is the feeling I want, except with torque.

 

Try mixing a half cup of sand in with every oil change and maybe a little pancake syrup in with every tank of gas. That ought to get the reliability of your 302 down to what every Fiat owner enjoys.

[Phantom]

A quick revving engine is as much gearing and vehicle weight as it is engine design. My 340 'Cuda back in the '70's was a regver - so were the Z28's with the 302's. My LS1 in the Z rev's very quickly - something about the weight, gearing, and gobs of torque!

[rudypoochris]

I probably worded it wrong. it doesn't rev quick as in accelerate fast, oh no. It is definetly slow, except at 4,000 rpm it feels like the VTAK kicks in, obviously it is quite peaky. Any way I ment just the engine when in neutral, you can just tap the throttle and it spins up sweetly, smoothly, and instantly. I know this has alot to do with the flywheel, and my stock (25lb????) 302 flywheel is probably going to be a big minus for this. But I am wondering if there is anything more to it, balancing? Or is it simply a DOHC thing that I will never get with my 302? Thanks guys

 

By the way I drove it from Sienna to Folonica today across the "curves of prada" it was awesome. Second time I have done it. I was going at 5/10ths I would say. That doesnt sound like alot, but with both my parents in the car it really is, and considering I probably have no clue what 9/10 or 10/10ths really is, I knocked a couple points off. If I was able to do it alone, I could probably make 7 or 8/10 and be quite content. Simply awesome, although the whole FWD thing feels like *** out of the curve. I wasn't sliding or anything, just a little squeel, but it felt limiting for some reason, i am not a racer so don't know exactly what it was, but it definetly is the first thing to fix to make it go faster. That and torque steer suuuucks

[Phantom]

The 302 used in the '68 Camaro Z28 responded in the manner you're describing. I only drove one once back then but I remember that, although it took more RPM off the line, it had a very quick throttle response - both in and out of gear - and just never seemed to quit, rev wise.

[silicone boy]

The Suzuki Hyabusa motor in my basement kicks but over any Ferrari motor. I just have to find a car to put it in. Maybe a Lotus Super 7 clone? Imagine....190 hp at 12,000 RPM with a sequential shifter, in a car that weighs less than 1000 pounds.

[rudypoochris]

It is a ford 302, but hopefully it will rev like yours did.

[b__sosick]

The Suzuki Hyabusa motor in my basement kicks but over any Ferrari motor. I just have to find a car to put it in. Maybe a Lotus Super 7 clone? Imagine....190 hp at 12,000 RPM with a sequential shifter, in a car that weighs less than 1000 pounds.

 

put it in a GOKART.

[silicone boy]

put it in a GOKART.

 

 

I don't have a death wish. Actually, there is a website somewhere where a Dutch guy put a 13b turbo rotary motor on a go kart. I'm not sure if he is still alive.

[spdsk8r]

There used to be a kit car company that sold a fiberglass replica Mini Cooper that used a Hyabusa for power. How's 800lbs. and 190hp. sound? It was called the Ninja Mini. I'm sure they are no longer in business, though.

[Michael]

On a business trip to Germany my rental car was an Opel Vectra GTS. FWD 4-door family car, 2.3L 4-banger. And Opel is just GM. But... that thing was remarkably smooth, tracked fine and steady, reaching 210 kmh (130 mph) on the highway from Braunschweig to Frankfurt. It did feel a little light-footed at the curves, where it was necessary to slow down to around 180 kmh.

 

This is a rather nondescript, lukewarm-sporty family sedan - from GM!

 

On a trip to England I rented a Vauxhall hatchback, with a 1.6L 4-cylinder. If the Opel was striving for upper middle class, the Vauxhall was definitely rental-fleet caliber. And yet, it too had peppy acceleration, responsive handling, logical and useful driver controls, good pedal feel, etc.

 

My point is that there's something about European-market cars that emphasizes taughtness and connectedness with the driver, something that's very difficult to find in American-market cars, even amongst cars of European origin. I don't think that it comes down merely to engine internals.

[rudypoochris]

My point is that there's something about European-market cars that emphasizes taughtness and connectedness with the driver, something that's very difficult to find in American-market cars, even amongst cars of European origin. I don't think that it comes down merely to engine internals.

 

I agree, I am having a feeling that it will be difficult to emulate, but light well balanced internals should be a good start. A completely diffferent cam will also be necesary.