Improving Safety on the S30?

[Armand]

Hey guys,

 

Im currently making a bunch of changes to my interior(sound deadening, seats, 3-point belts, stereo, gauges, etc.) and I was thinking of safety. Now most of the time my car is going to be driven on the streets. Just once in a while to school and back, on the weekends, the occasional weekend canyon run with the buddies, and some autocrossing here and there when Im completely done with the car.

 

I'm going to be adding Corbeau Forza's w/ Corbeau 3-point harness's, but I want some more protection. I am contemplating on adding a roll bar, but I've heard some people say that adding a roll bar/cage can be more dangerous if its going to be just street driven. I've thought long and hard about this and I just can't see how it can be more dangerous. I keep thinking how one of these days some stupid mom on a cell phone in an SUV is just gonna crash right into the side of my 240 or rear-end me and Im going to be seriously injured.

 

What I'm asking is besides a roll bar, is there anything Im not thinking of that can add some safety to the car? I was also contemplating installing a 4 or 6 point roll cage with a small door bar. What do you guys think? Im 16 years old and I've read several books all about racing, and I know all the sacred rules of canyon driving, what lines to take for certain types of turns, controlling oversteer, all that stuff, but I know being 16 Im going to be trying some stupid things, and I just want to be safe. As far as price, I want to try and keep it under $500. It's ok if it goes over a bit. Im lucky enough to have my parents pay for this since its a safety option and not a performance thing.

 

Thanks in advance,

-Armand

[proxlamus©]

Roll bar's and half cages are awsome

 

FULL cages with roof bars and a halo would be very dangerous on the street car unless you had lots of padding.. ask 240hoke about his head bump during his accident a few years ago, and this was without a cage.

 

A roll bar will help in the evnt of a roll over obviously and a side collision if at the right part of the car.

 

4 point belts and seats to keep you IN and not sliding around would be beneficial.

[Guest TeamNissan]

s30 Safe-ty? I'm going to have to look that up

[240Z_Master]

Roll bar is fine (the main hoop) for the street... but a full on cage... I would be careful. I plan on installing one that is removeable (I have a Cusco Cage) ready to go... but I will have tons of padding and what not.

[ZDrifter]

My Z is a daily driver as well and I plan on a seat back cage with side bars from about the elbow down(if your sitting in the chair) to the bottom corner of the door. This cage will be removable as insurance companies charge more for having a cage in your car....Have it well done if your not doing it, you dont want it coming apart and the cage killing you. Dont do stupid ♥♥♥♥ on the roads either not a smart idea. If its canyon driving dont go off a cliff cuz Z's werent made to do that. Trust me you dont want tickets at such a young age, too many of my friends have had their licenses taken away from anywhere from 6 months to two years. Get some autocross events under your belt and have fun.

[bjhines]

There are so many safety features that modern cars have that the S-30 cars do not, that you cannot really compare them.

 

I have seen an s-30 that was T-boned right in front of the rear wheel well. The car was squahed flat with the drivers seat pinned against the passenger seat. luckily the car was parked and no one was in it when this happened. The driver and passenger would have been crushed and pinned if they were in the car.

 

Stiffening the car too much can be bad too. Think about crush-zones that are built into modern cars. The car can survive relatively in tact while injuring the occupants from shock acceleration.

 

Modern cars have more headroom to keep occupants from hitting their heads on the roof and pillars. The S-30s are notorious for having little headroom on the sides.

 

The foot-well areas are not reinforced and prone to crushing the driver's legs if the car is hit hard in the front door area.

 

RUST, RUST, RUST... weakens the cars to the point that they are not even stiff enough to support their own suspension loads, much less IMPACT loads.

 

The fuel tank is not potected and a serious rear-end risk on a stock Z car.

aged fuel-bowl-to-jet lines on SU carbys are also prone to sudden failure and fires over the manifolds.

 

 

 

The one overeaching fact that you cannot overcome even with modern designs is the light weight of the S-30 Zcars. The lightest car will take the brunt of the impact in a collision with a giant modern MINIVAN or SUV, especially if the other car has a truck frame.

 

Another fact that simply CANNOT be overcome is the car's small size and low height. SUV drivers DONT SEE THE S-30 right beside them and will run you down.

 

I drive relatively large cars and trucks for daily drivers. I have noticed that other drives RESPECT the size of my large vehicles. I never have problems with aggressive drivers cutting me off and pulling out in front of my large vehicles. The moment I get into my tiny little Z-car I am suddenly attacked from all sides by MORONS pulling out in front of me and bullying me around on the freeways. I never understood this rediculous attitude from other drivers. Hitting another car no matter what size is a serious offense. The fact remains. People will drive right over you when your car is smaller than theirs. IDIOTS abound. My duaghter will drive the largest vehicle allowed on the roads or she will ride the bus.

 

 

If you want safety, buy a modern SUV that is 10 feet tall, bright red, and weighs 6,500LBS.

[Armand]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm probably gonna be insalling an Autopower roll bar. Any more info would be appreciated.

[2126]

How about adding a fire extinguisher to your list!

[Tony D]

Stiffening the car too much can be bad too. Think about crush-zones that are built into modern cars. The car can survive relatively in tact while injuring the occupants from shock acceleration.

 

Think Dale Earnhardt. Stiff chassis, LOOSE BELTS.

 

If you have every safety feature in the world, and let your belts loose so you can internally accelerate BEFORE being stopped by either the belts or another piece of the car, you are almost better off with nothing.

 

This may sound strange, but put cardboard rolls in the door. (Extreme Example) I had a chance to dissect some Volvo Doors once, and found the surface under the door panel was basically made of some corrugated carbboard rolls. I asked about it, and what was said made sense---and you can see this in today's cars more and more:

 

The further you are from an internal component before you hit it, the faster you go, and the more injury results. By adding a relatively rigid, yet deformable substance (cardboard) the occupant's extremities never accelerate more than a couple of inches before contacting and deforming the panel. This spreads the forces of impact out over a longer period, resulting in less traumatic injury, bruising, etc.

 

I note in rentals a lot that in vehicles FAR larger than my Z, I am continually rubbing my knees on door panels, elbow room is less.... I mean I have more room to move around in my Z than I do in a new Crown Vic when I'm in a comfortable driving position.

 

It's that space that hurts you!

 

A Stiff car is not necessarily a safe car---a compliant car is much safer.

 

When you are on a track, and belted in with your HANS device, a stiff car will keep structural integrity, and the HANS will keep your head from flopping around and 'doing a Dale', the limb restraints will keep your hands inside from being caught outside and crushed. But on the street, lacking all that restraint if you have a stiff car and are hit hard---while your car may have structural integrity, that shock is going to be transmitted somewhere and it almost always is evidenced by flailing limbs and traumatic injuries.

 

Having been in some rollovers, as well as a concrete wall impact, from what I remember I was flopping around like a rag doll. Make the interior soft, limit your limb movements with thickly padded, semi-dense foam door panels, and padding wherever you can put it, keep a good seat and good belts in the car, and don't do stupid things.

 

Given enough momentum (as John C said earlier) any idiot can break anything---that includes YOURSELF!

 

I watched a slow rollover and impact on Cal Rte 60 some years back. A Toyota Tacoma Parts runner passed me while I was doing 80. Weaving, jigging, really 'making time'... Until it tried to pass a car coming up an onramp (passed on the RIGHT Unpaved Shoulder) and lost total control. it was like slow motion---I watched the parts boxes go to the roof, as the driver put their hand up unsuccessfully as they followed to the roof. Then they repeated this one more time, before the truck landed on it's wheels, and went in a "T-Bone" direction into the RIGHT side of a small Nissan Stanza travelling in the fast lane. I estimate the speed of side impact was somewhere in the 30-40mph range by that time. I watched the passenger's head AND SHOULDER come out through the right side window doorglass when they got hit. This person was belted in with standard lap belts. The amount you can flop around should never be underestimated. I was shocked to physically see someone's body almost come completely out of the car from a side impact! They never saw it coming either.

 

And of course, the Parts Truck Driver blamed the guy 1/4 mile up the road for 'pulling off the shoulder into traffic' when she was coming. Me? My statement started to the CHP "Well, I was Westbound in the #2 lane at 80mph"... Cop couldn't believe I said that. Never underestimate the stupidity of the driver's around you---many times it is they who will be your undoing!

[Challenger]

Which is a better position for a rollbar, going off the top of the wheel wells or the floor?

 

Im 16 also and just got my license, Ive been very cautious cause If I get a ticket ill be really screwed on insurance prices. We originally bought the car in 5th grade to be ready once I get my license but were a little off schedule.

[JDMFairladyZX]

Dude I'm in your same situation, I daily my S130 that im gonna be AutoXing and I worry about safety as well, especailly since my seltbelts currently dont work either, Ive already gotten my Forza seat and planning to order my harness ASAP once Ive decided on how Im gonna mount them, I might be buying a Autopower roll bar too. Only problem is money:mad:

[Armand]

2126, I will definitely add a small fire extinguisher to the passenger floor. Thanks for reminding of that!

 

Interesting stuff Tony D. I'll try and find the right material to pack behind my door panels. After all they are only a thin piece of cardboard and then just a bunch of metal. Whats even scarier is its only a couple inches away from my arm, but according to your info its a good thing, so one less thing off my mind.

 

Mopar, I totally feel you man. If I get a ticket my dad would totally whoop my a$$! Im lucky enough to have him paying for my insurance. I've already been pulled over once and I was VERY lucky that the cop let me off with a warning. One word of advice, never drive with a broken speedometer, you'd be surprised how fast you think your going.

 

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Pop N Wood]

I wouldn't lend too much credibility to internet chatter about the safety of roll bars on street cars. When it comes to safety devices people, including ones on this site, tend to state unsubtantiated opinion as established fact.

 

I don't think anyone really knows whether a roll bar makes a street Z safer or not.

 

Also keep in mind the overwhelming majority of fatal car accidents involve a single vehicle. So the SUV mom on the cell phone isn't the one you should be worried about. The person you should be worried about will be the one looking back at you when you look in the mirror.

[johnc]

For a street and autox driven car the Autopower wheel well mounted roll bars are fine. Rollover and impact speeds are most likely around 30 to 40 mph which the bar can handle. For lapping and open track use where impact and rollover speeds are double the above numbers a roll bar will need to attach to the floor, rocker panels, and strut towers. For wheel-to-wheel racing a roll cage is required because of the frequency of multiple impacts in a wreck.

[Challenger]

All I have to figure out now is how to get a roll bar in a 2+2 and keep the back seats.

 

ARMAND- The Z isnt the greatest car to be driving when you first get your license, especcially a bright orange one.

[Armand]

Hah!I quickly figured that out mopar. Im actually contemplating on just fixing anything that doesn't work, drive it for a couple months and sell it. I just don't trust myself with this thing. I was going to get a used rx-8 but i picked the datsun instead. Im thinking of just getting the rx-8 again. It would be really nice to have a daily driver w/ a stereo and a/c.

[mario_82_ZXT]

ARMAND- The Z isnt the greatest car to be driving when you first get your license, especcially a bright orange one.

 

Why not? I've been driving Zs and ZXs since I was 15. They've taught me car control, especially in snow and ice (being a DD in a place where it snows every winter). I've had an 83 ZX, then a modded 280zx turbo (all work done by myself), and now my stripped out 280z with the suspension and exhaust that most older people would hate (might drop my turbo drivetrain in my 280z this summer).

 

My sister learned stick and DD my 83 ZX and hated it when we sold it (at 16 too, now she drives a Subaru Outback and hates it...).

 

Just don't be stupid on the streets and know your limits. If the weather was too bad I'd call home and get picked up by my dad in his Isuzu Trooper that was phenomenal in the snow.

 

Just my $0.02,

Mario

[Challenger]

No I think the Z is a great car to learn in and it probably really teaches you car control, but it stands out and thats not good when you dont want tickets. I think my Z is the best thing thats happened to me, Ive worked on it since the 5th grade and everthing I know about Z cars is from working on it and taking it apart. Im just glad I can say Ive actually know whats under my carpet unlike most ricers.

[Tony D]

Don't misinterpret what I said, now! ANY movement before impact with any thing increases the incidence of injury. The Volvo Engineer used the example of a corrugated cardboard tube used to take up the 'couple of inches' between a knee and the door panel. Simply by placing a slowly deformable object directly against the leg, instead of letting it accelerate for 'a couple of inches' before hitting a soft and deformable door panel GREATLY reduced the traumatic injury. This is why even though cars are getting 'bigger' they are getting 'smaller' on the inside. They WANT everything close to the body, and deformable so it spreads the impact out immediately and over the longest possible period of time without ANY chance for unchecked bodily acceleration.

 

A good way to make the door panels in a Z safe, and actually look good is to use that dense, polyurethane spray foam on top of the cardboard panel. You spray it on and sculpt it and stick your speaker in there. You cover over it with door covering, and make it very close to your knees or elbows. That dense foam will collapse if you start flopping around and spread out the impact---and by using it to hold your speaker in a free-formed enclosure is also performs another function instead of having 'blobby' door panels without any function. The worst thing I can think of doing would be fiberglassing over the top of it and making a HARD door panel on the interior. That would be an example of 'bad' interior design.

 

If you want fire extinguishers, look for the newer style AFFF style (Aqueous Fire Fighting Foam) for the footwell on a pushbotton actuator, along with the standard ABC style mini extingusiher on the floorboard. The AFFF is water based, you can recharge it yourself, and if you use some of the nozzle kits, can make it spray under the hood. Nice touch if you want to flood the engine compartment with extinguishant before opening the hood. Open a hood ONE time to a flash fire that takes off your eyebrows and you will say "oh, that is a good idea!" LOL (well, maybe not eyebrows, but singes the beard and takes all the hair off your extinguisher-arm...)

[Daeron]

This is one of the best threads on "How do I make my old car safer?" that I have ever read, anywhere. I nominate for sticky.

 

Armand: for a sixteen year old in a sports car, it sounds like you have already taken care of the most important aspect of your own safety: the loose nut behind the wheel. You SEEM to have a very sober judgment of your own personality, and I applaud you for that.

 

I rolled a honda civic several years ago; It was pitch dark, and my brother woke me up after 3 hours of sleep, after a MAJOR concert, and had me drive him to his bus stop as usual. Since I didn't have to go to work that morning, I decided to take his out-of-state registry civic hatch (~1990) with functioning defogger, windows, etc rather than my 280. SINCE I wasn't in my car, and I was going back to sleep when I got home anyhow... I did NOT smoke a cigarette. Man, I wish I had.

 

After we waited five minutes for his bus, I rubbed my eyes and took off down the road.. somewhere along the line, in under two blocks, I drifted back to sleep just enough that I slowly eased off the road, halfway into a ditch, then hit a culvert where someone's driveway passed over that ditch. One complete revolution counter clockwise looking at the rear of the car, and one and a half flips end over end later, I was leaning against a guardrail between the sidewalk and a small canal.

 

My only injuries were a few light scratches, and a bruised ribcage from the seatbelt. That seatbelt, and a tale of my dad's, were all that kept me alive; the guardrail went through the windshield right about the point you would touch if you reached your right arm straight forward and up slightly, about an 8 o clock position from the rearview mirror. My dads tale involved flipping a VW van end over end with my then infant eldest brother in the passenger's seat, neither of them wearing seatbelts. Dad's one arm on the steering wheel held them both in the car. My two hands locked on the wheel of the honda saved me.

 

Being FULLY aware of the risk you take every time you put the key in the ignition is more important than a seatbelt; seatbelts are safety item number two; all other concerns (significant though they are, I do NOT want to take away from that) are less important than those. My dad's story and my own instincts are all that saved me, (well, the seatbelt, too) since I was for all practical purposes ASLEEP when I did this.