Improving Safety on the S30?

[Metallicar]

How about a modern steering column with an air bag from let's say a 2004 vintage Sentra?

[johnc]

You would also need the ECU, sensors, decellerometer, wiring harness, and more.

[Bartman]

For a street and autox driven car the Autopower wheel well mounted roll bars are fine. Rollover and impact speeds are most likely around 30 to 40 mph which the bar can handle. For lapping and open track use where impact and rollover speeds are double the above numbers a roll bar will need to attach to the floor, rocker panels, and strut towers. For wheel-to-wheel racing a roll cage is required because of the frequency of multiple impacts in a wreck.

Would this Autopower wheel well mounted roll bar be a benefit to someone over 6' 2"? I wouldn't mind adding something that would provide a little more safety, but for comfort I keep my seat all the way back and I have it tilted back a little as well. My car is mainly for the street.

[mom'sZ]

Would this Autopower wheel well mounted roll bar be a benefit to someone over 6' 2"? ... but for comfort I keep my seat all the way back and I have it tilted back a little as well...

Bartman: It is my opinion that one of the benefits of the wheel well mounted Autopower bar is that the main hoop is further back then it could possibly be if it went all the way to the floor in front of the wheel houses. I'm six foot tall, and to be able to work the clutch pedal I sat with the stock seat about one or two clicks up from full back. At two clicks foward, I have to tilt the seat back one click from fully upright to be back away from the wheel enough to be comfortable. In either of those two configurations, the seat back is pretty much against the crossbar. All the way back and tilted back a click or two probably won't work.

[Metallicar]

You would also need the ECU, sensors, decellerometer, wiring harness, and more.

 

I guess I better study up. Too bad that the aftermarket "Breed SRS" is gone. Maybe someday, the new parent company, Key Industies (who own MOMO) will come out with a retrofit system. It sure does seem like another hole in the market place.

 

I mean, it's like reloading your own ammunition, right? You won't find out if it works until you actuate the trigger. I can reload good ammo, I would have no problem learning, then installing a small pyrotechnic inches from my face! Not that I can jump into this project right away.

[whyrualive]

My son and I are rebuilding our Z and safety was our top concern. We decided to invest in the following to avoid an accident:

 

1. Upgraded Brakes

2. Upgraded Suspension

3. ZG Flares to accommodate wide rubber

4. Loud exhaust (loud pipes save lives - let people know you are there)

5. New wiring harness to improve brightness of lights / brakes lights

6. Fixing and upgrading the horn

 

God forbid we ever get in an accident, we are installing:

6. New seats and belts

7. Half Cage

8. Extinguisher

9. First Aid Kit

 

The last thing we are doing for safety is making sure we both know the limits of our capabilities. We are both taking performance classes with the Z once it is done. They are expensive, but that may be the best investment your folks can make.

 

Good Luck

[Spyder Z 15]

Bartman: It is my opinion that one of the benefits of the wheel well mounted Autopower bar is that the main hoop is further back then it could possibly be if it went all the way to the floor in front of the wheel houses. I'm six foot tall, and to be able to work the clutch pedal I sat with the stock seat about one or two clicks up from full back. At two clicks foward, I have to tilt the seat back one click from fully upright to be back away from the wheel enough to be comfortable. In either of those two configurations, the seat back is pretty much against the crossbar. All the way back and tilted back a click or two probably won't work.

So being 6'8" myself I'm kinda screwed huh? And I wanted a roll bar and harnesses for my project.

[JMortensen]

Seeing where you are located and the fact that you mentioned canyon driving, I'd suggest you get something really slow that handles very poorly. I grew up in Agoura and used to frequent the canyons (think several times a night) for years. It finally bit me in the ass and I rolled a car off of Decker Canyon about 4 turns north of Mulholland. Actually I think it's still technically Westlake Blvd right there. In any event you ought to drive out that way and take a look. Lucky to be alive is an extreme understatement... That's what got me into autox. You can spin and about the worst that happens is you get a cone hickey.

 

When I got into autox I was suddenly confronted with the fact that I didn't know WTF I was doing behind the wheel and that I wasn't nearly as talented as I thought I was. I knew I wasn't going as fast as I could possibly go in the canyons, but nowadays I think back to what I was doing and it was 7 or 8 tenths at best. But with my skills now honed from years of autoxing and a much much faster car, there is no way I would go 10/10ths in most of those canyons anymore, as the slightest mistake would have me flinging my car off a cliff and very very dead. No thanks.

 

In all seriousness, I'd suggest you keep the Z. Don't do anything crazy to it, just mod it slowly as time and $$$ permits. That way you'll truly understand the effect that each part has on the car, and you'll know it that much better. And in the meantime if you really want to drive fast find an autox or go to a Porsche Owners Club slalom at Streets of Willow or do the driving school at Buttonwillow Raceway. The autoxes are cheaper, but you'll learn more from the driving schools.

 

Good luck and stay safe.

[JMortensen]

So being 6'8" myself I'm kinda screwed huh? And I wanted a roll bar and harnesses for my project.

Check out zlalom's cage in his Hybrid Z photo album. He's 6'5" or 6'6" if I recall correctly...

[Armand]

Thats the main reason I'm so concerned about safety. Yes im concerned about accidents with other cars, but the majority of the concern is with my canyon driving. I do realize that there is no room for mistakes in the canyons and the results can be fatal in a 240z. My brother has crashed three times into a cliff in his old VW Passat, and one of his friends went off a cliff and rolled over about 5 times in his 03 Mini Cooper S. He came out with just scratches, thankfully the Mini is a strong car structually. I learn off their mistakes.

 

I'll definitely be looking into autox's and Im going to be taking the next driving course at buttonwillow. I don't think I could stop canyon driving though. I do put a lot of analysis onto canyon driving with the lines I take and how fast to go on certain turns, and Im never pushing the limits of the car when I do drive there. Im learning off of our spare car, a 1991 Buick Park Avenue. Its about 11 seconds 0-60 and fwd so its relatively safe. Once in a while I'll take my bro's 03 Cooper S or my moms old benz. Its amazing how well you can make an old boat of a buick with very shot shocks handle when you really get to learn the car.

 

Thanks for the tips everyone. This is turning into quite a thread. Feel free to add, lets make this sticky material.

[gvincent]

Well said Jon, I also grew up in Agoura/Westlake and know the canyon roads that jon talks about extremely well, I am extremely lucky to be alive after several wrecks where I was a passenger and many near misses as a driver. I have talked about this with Jon off line a couple of times and boy when you think back we were really stupid and luckily we didn't kill ourselves or anybody else. I am going back there this summer sometime for my 35th High School reunion and no doubt the Agoura HS parking lot runs through Encinal to Zuma 7 will come up during a conversation sometime during the evening and usually the final words are "boy were we F#$%ing stupid or what?"

Greg

Agoura HS class of 1972.

[Pop N Wood]

You know I hate to continue to be a wet blanket but all this thread is going to do is get someone killed.

 

If you feel you need a roll bar in your car to make it safe on the street then you probably shouldn't be driving. The same thing for a fire extinquisher.

 

Race cars need fire extinquishers cause it is high risk driving. The risk on a street car should be SO LOW that they should not need fire extinquishers.

 

All this crap is going to do is give you a false sense of security on the street.

 

Unlike a race track a public roadway is a completely uncontrolled environment. I don't care how much work you do to improve the handling and safety of your car or if you can drive like a young AJ Foyt, you have no control over someone coming the opposite direction drifting into your lane or turning left in front of you. If you are going too fast then you will not have time to prevent the accident.

 

One other HUGE thing you need to think about. If you do get in a wreck and there is even a hint you were driving in an unsafe manner, then all of this stuff is going to work against you in the subsequent criminal trial.

 

Air bags are run by computers which need software tuned for the specific vehicle. Swapping them between vehicles is probably not a good idea.

 

The best advice I can give you is to keep your car in good mechanical condition and to drive defensively. Save the high performance driving for controlled environments.

[mom'sZ]

So being 6'8" myself I'm kinda screwed huh? And I wanted a roll bar and harnesses for my project.

Spyder Z: You may have problems using the autopower bolt in. Most cages are custom made however and the driver's size and getting him comfortable inside the car are a major criterion for the cage design. For what I paid for the Autopower cage plus having it truck shipped from Cali to Florida, I could have had a custom cage done locally. For a taller driver, the cage is constructed with a couple of S bends in the crossbar of the main hoop to allow more seat room. The additional room is needed for the seat back brace.

Anyhow, Pop is right, roll cages are for race cars (mine is a SCCA ITS)

[Sparky]

You know I hate to continue to be a wet blanket but all this thread is going to do is get someone killed.

 

If you feel you need a roll bar in your car to make it safe on the street then you probably shouldn't be driving. The same thing for a fire extinquisher.

 

Race cars need fire extinquishers cause it is high risk driving. The risk on a street car should be SO LOW that they should not need fire extinquishers.

 

All this crap is going to do is give you a false sense of security on the street.

 

 

wow, We are driving 30+ YO cars with 30+ YO wiring, I know from first hand experience that it is a damn wise idea to carry a fire extinguisher with you at all times, securely mounted within reach of the drivers arm WHILE strapped into the seat belt. Saying your going to have a false sense of security becuase you have a fire extinguisher is one of the most absurd things I've heard on this forum. Injectors leak, fuel lines rupture, short circuits happen....They happen while your sitting in a line at the bank. Not only that, but it happens to others too, I'd liked to think that If I'm helping a stranded motorist and the car catches on fire I might have a chance to put it out before it becomes a total loss.

 

Now the roll bar comment is another matter, You said so your self further down in your post that the street is an uncontrolled enviroment and you never know thats going to happen. Right on...thats what a roll bar isn't such a bad idea (properly designed of course) When I drive my Z I am on the defensive, being a Texas driver I am consistantly surrounded by SUVs and country boys in duellys blasting rap music, They cannot see me, they cannot hear me (even with my airhorns) I would much rather have some kind of supllemental crash and roll over protection than rely on the aforementioned 30+ YO comprimised body shell should I not be able to avoid every idiotic move.

 

As a conscience drive of a small sports car I think its imparitve that we take some kind of proactive approach to our safety while we frolic amongst the savages on our nations highways. We do this by properly installing new belts or harnesses, adding roll bars, making our cars handle and brake better and installing other types of safety equipment.

 

 

Unlike a race track a public roadway is a completely uncontrolled environment. I don't care how much work you do to improve the handling and safety of your car or if you can drive like a young AJ Foyt, you have no control over someone coming the opposite direction drifting into your lane or turning left in front of you. If you are going too fast then you will not have time to prevent the accident.

 

One other HUGE thing you need to think about. If you do get in a wreck and there is even a hint you were driving in an unsafe manner, then all of this stuff is going to work against you in the subsequent criminal trial.

 

...

 

The best advice I can give you is to keep your car in good mechanical condition and to drive defensively. Save the high performance driving for controlled environments.

 

I couldnt agree more with the above, It's ok to have roll bars, its ok to have fire extinguishers, its ok to have four-five point harnesses, but its not ok to drive like an arse on public roadways. A responsible driver will learn the limits of his or her car in a controlled environment, leaving the agressive driving off the streets. As a machine operator we must always remember that by taking the wheel of any vehicle we are talking the lives of others around us into our own hands.

 

happy motoring!

[JMortensen]

Unlike a race track a public roadway is a completely uncontrolled environment. I don't care how much work you do to improve the handling and safety of your car or if you can drive like a young AJ Foyt, you have no control over someone coming the opposite direction drifting into your lane or turning left in front of you. If you are going too fast then you will not have time to prevent the accident.

 

One other HUGE thing you need to think about. If you do get in a wreck and there is even a hint you were driving in an unsafe manner, then all of this stuff is going to work against you in the subsequent criminal trial.

I agree with Sparky on the fire extinguisher and roll bar comments, especially having had my steering column catch fire while I was on the highway. And having seen a friends 510 after he got T boned by a F150 in the driver's side, I also understand how the roll bar might not just be there for a "false sense of security".

 

However, this part is dead on, and the potentially dangerous thing here is that Armand is telling us that his intention is to go out and run the canyons. No getting around it it's just a dangerous thing to do. I think Pop is right that if something did happen when you were obviously going as fast as you could through a canyon, and somebody did get hurt you'd be in some serious sh!t. Times have changed and all the anti-street racing legislation would be pointed at you.

 

Like I said before, I learned SO MUCH MORE and drove SO MUCH BETTER after some instruction at a racetrack in retrospect running through the canyons seems like a waste of time in terms of learning to drive fast, and almost has a Russian roulette conotation in terms of the stupidity involved...

[Pop N Wood]

I stand by what I said. An extinguisher is not NEEDED for safety on a properly maintained vehicle. It does little to nothing to make the car safer. It is probably a good idea and might save you some money, but it simply doesn’t do much in terms of safety.

 

I could argue the safest thing you could do for a burning vehicle is to get the hell away from it. In that sense the extinguisher will actually make the car less safe. No?

 

Any takers on that one?

 

Like I said, keep the car in good mechanical condition and you are 99% of the way there. There is nothing absurd about a little common sense, unless of course you take the statements out of context.

 

....(properly designed of course)

 

That is the brunt of my argument. What the hell constitutes "properly designed", and does that vary for street vehicles vs. race cars? How do you know if you have made the car safer or more dangerous just because you welded a bunch of pipes together with zero testing and zero lessons learned feedback?

 

And I stand by the false sense of confidence statement. When people start thinking the normal rules don't apply to them is when stupid things happen. In terms of pure physics a Corvette should be highly resistant to rolling. And yet accident statistics show they have one of the highest roll over rates. What does that tell you?

 

Telling this kid he needs a roll cage in his car just because it is 30 years old is one of the most absurd things I have read.

[TheNeedForZ]

An extinguisher is not NEEDED for safety on a properly maintained vehicle.

 

An extinguisher is not NEEDED for safety on a properly maintained vehicle, but an extinguisher IS NEEDED for safety on a burning vehicle

 

I think a car is, or is presumed, properly maintained and problem-free.....until something breaks.

 

I just bought two extinguishers two days ago, one for the house one for the S30 when it is finished. I don't care how carfully I wire/protect the car with respect to fire hazard, I will bring my extinguisher. It's only 2.5 pounds, it might make the difference between stopping a vehicular disaster and watching things burn. Besides, you might be able to use it to save somebody else, so why not?

 

Suppose I have a turbo car that is 100% trouble free. I go out for a ride but something needs my immediate attention after a drive. I pull over to the side of road due to an emergency. While I leave my vehicle to attend to my business, the long, dry grass under the car touches the hot turbo exhaust and catches fire, if not stopped soon it will begin to cook the fuel lines.....YOU SEE? it's not always the thing ON the car that can start a fire, it can be grass, cigarette butt on the carpet, static at the gas pump, oily rag....or whatever. So buy an extinguisher, it's a good investment.

[Bartman]

You know I hate to continue to be a wet blanket but all this thread is going to do is get someone killed.

 

If you feel you need a roll bar in your car to make it safe on the street then you probably shouldn't be driving. The same thing for a fire extinquisher.

 

Race cars need fire extinquishers cause it is high risk driving. The risk on a street car should be SO LOW that they should not need fire extinquishers.

 

All this crap is going to do is give you a false sense of security on the street.

 

Unlike a race track a public roadway is a completely uncontrolled environment. I don't care how much work you do to improve the handling and safety of your car or if you can drive like a young AJ Foyt, you have no control over someone coming the opposite direction drifting into your lane or turning left in front of you. If you are going too fast then you will not have time to prevent the accident.

 

One other HUGE thing you need to think about. If you do get in a wreck and there is even a hint you were driving in an unsafe manner, then all of this stuff is going to work against you in the subsequent criminal trial.

 

Air bags are run by computers which need software tuned for the specific vehicle. Swapping them between vehicles is probably not a good idea.

 

The best advice I can give you is to keep your car in good mechanical condition and to drive defensively. Save the high performance driving for controlled environments.

I don't think any of the information on this thread is going to get someone killed.

 

The two main items being discussed are roll bars and fire extinguishers. I haven't seen any data that supports having these two items can be anything other than a benefit. I think the only way you can really say having these items can be a problem is if the person who owns a vehicle with these items drives any differently because he has them...this would be because of what you referred to as the "false sense of security". If you drive exactly the same regardless of whether you have these items or not, I don't know how you could logically say they are not a benefit. Now if you start talking about roll cages, there is data that suggests you are safer without one on the street.

 

Because these are not performance enhancing products I find it difficult to find that these products could be used against you in a court of law if anything did ever happen.

 

I think the bottom line is to drive safe and defensive and keep high performance driving to controlled venues. I see no problem whatsoever in adding safety equipment to a street vehicle as long as they aren't used to give the driver a sense that he can now drive more aggressively on the street.

[Pop N Wood]

I haven't seen any data that supports having these two items can be anything other than a benefit.

 

May I see the data? With respect to roll cages in a street car in particular.

 

I have been looking for something quantitative for years.

 

Do you have anything about helmets in a car too? Cause there are a number of people who have said it is flat out unsafe to drive a roll bar equiped car without a helmet and full harness. I would love to see soemthing to back up or disprove that statement.

[Pop N Wood]

An extinguisher is not NEEDED for safety on a properly maintained vehicle, but an extinguisher IS NEEDED for safety on a burning vehicle

 

I think a car is, or is presumed, properly maintained and problem-free.....until something breaks.

 

You know it is probably a pretty good idea to carry a cub scout knife and some water proof matches just in case your car goes off the road and gets trapped in some brush where no one can see you. It does happen. I read about it from time to time. You know, the whole "be prepared" thing.

 

See my point?

 

If you are truely worried about electrical fires then install a battery disconnect. Cause an electrical fire is just going to keep restarting until the power is removed or exhausted. I know that one first hand.

 

And no, even a burning vehicle does not NEED an extinquisher. What it needs from a purely safety stand point is for everyone to get out and stay away.