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Turbo Intake Plenum


MONZTER

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Has anyone thought of using vortex generators in the intake manifold? Since it "works" improving the aero of the Z body shouldn't it work in the intake tract?

With the VERY high velocity they may be able to be used to create a counter-rotation that could cancel out the vortecies all-together. Have I injested too much bad cheese or does it make sense?

 

I think the idea of a intake-tract set of vortex generators could create a counter-tornado that could work.

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Jeff,

I'll be working at the Garrett R&D facility all this coming week (Lomita and Hawthorne), I PM'd you my celphone number, I can drop by the HKS plenums some time this week if you're interested. Give me a call and I can load them up...or if you're up to it, come on by the GroupZ meeting on Thursday Night (7pm) at Fuddruckers in Buena Park, and I can transfer them to you at that time.

Curious to see what happens when you reverse engineer them! LOL

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Jeff,

I'll be working at the Garrett R&D facility all this coming week (Lomita and Hawthorne), I PM'd you my celphone number, I can drop by the HKS plenums some time this week if you're interested. Give me a call and I can load them up...or if you're up to it, come on by the GroupZ meeting on Thursday Night (7pm) at Fuddruckers in Buena Park, and I can transfer them to you at that time.

Curious to see what happens when you reverse engineer them! LOL

 

 

That sounds great Tony. I'll get with you to check them out. It will be good to see if there is any magic in those old HKS intakes.

 

BTW my computer fried the other day, so I have been recovering all of my files (nothing lost) and my new computer will be in soon. This is why there have been no updates lately. Back on real soon.

 

Jeff

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The deed is done, MonZster is in posession of the Type 1 and Type 2 HKS Plenums for some reverse engineering and CFD to let us all know what the Old-School JDM guys were doing. It's going to be interesting to see what the results are, and what can be learned/relearned from these artifacts...kind of like an archaelogical dig! It may shed some 'new' light on the subject, and move the design in a different way, or it may be a case of us saying "they made 592 RWHP in spite of what they were using at the time!"

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I have a question for you datsun guys that have been around for a few laps longer than I have.....

 

 

IS there any other engine that has quite so much of a combination of real-world miles, plus race-engineered knowledge, other than your standard pushrod american V8s? the turbo ford motors are extensively run, and the rotaries are a rather simple equation.. VWs might contend, and the mini cooper motor (As I understand it) was made in such ridiculous numbers that it might also be on the list... but my point is, collectively, SO MUCH intricate knowledge of the various combinations of part runs for the L-series has had such a VAST "trickle-down" from countless hours and years of racing success.

 

Are there any other engines that might be on this sort of list that I am missing? Is my point getting adequately conveyed at all? Or am I just rather limited in my exposure to real in-depth knowledge of various specific engine families?

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The deed is done, MonZster is in posession of the Type 1 and Type 2 HKS Plenums for some reverse engineering and CFD to let us all know what the Old-School JDM guys were doing. It's going to be interesting to see what the results are, and what can be learned/relearned from these artifacts...kind of like an archaelogical dig! It may shed some 'new' light on the subject, and move the design in a different way, or it may be a case of us saying "they made 592 RWHP in spite of what they were using at the time!"

 

How much of the in depth reverse engineering do you and MonZster plan on publishing online? I ask because I am concerned that very detailed measurements and or very detailed pictures of the internals could work to devalue the few HKS plenums here in the US. I'm all for scientific research as long as it does not devalue the pieces a few of us had to search out for years to get a hold of. After all I'm sure it would not be appreciated by other plenum owners if I started making castings of my plenum and dropping them for sale on Ebay. Not that there is any intention of that in your research, But if enough detailed information is published (such as scale pictures/measurements of the internal plenum) there are those outside of HybridZ that would not hesitate to profit from a knock off of it.

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How much of the in depth reverse engineering do you and MonZster plan on publishing online? I ask because I am concerned that very detailed measurements and or very detailed pictures of the internals could work to devalue the few HKS plenums here in the US. I'm all for scientific research as long as it does not devalue the pieces a few of us had to search out for years to get a hold of. After all I'm sure it would not be appreciated by other plenum owners if I started making castings of my plenum and dropping them for sale on Ebay. Not that there is any intention of that in your research, But if enough detailed information is published (such as scale pictures/measurements of the internal plenum) there are those outside of HybridZ that would not hesitate to profit from a knock off of it.

 

I don't understand this elitism... Maybe it's because nothing in my Z or it's drivetrain is considered rare, but I feel it would be awesome if an intake was developed out of this that basically would "redefine" the L engine aftermarket intakes here in the US. I can't stand this mentality, it basically keeps the little man down, which I don't believe is what having a hybridz is about.

 

For example, look at the wind tunnel testing. The few that participated it could have easily done this for just themselves. They didn't though, they released all their gatherings and in reality it brought into light a lot of the issues with the Zs aero, and they found ways to deal with it that most people would have never thought of.

 

There are those here with a lot of money, and others (like myself) trying to play on a minimalistic budget. I've seen this attitude before at car meets and drags when people get upset that my car which has less then $2500 in parts (including initial purchase) is beating their new cars...

 

Just my $0.02,

Mario

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How much of the in depth reverse engineering do you and MonZster plan on publishing online? I ask because I am concerned that very detailed measurements and or very detailed pictures of the internals could work to devalue the few HKS plenums here in the US. I'm all for scientific research as long as it does not devalue the pieces a few of us had to search out for years to get a hold of. After all I'm sure it would not be appreciated by other plenum owners if I started making castings of my plenum and dropping them for sale on Ebay. Not that there is any intention of that in your research, But if enough detailed information is published (such as scale pictures/measurements of the internal plenum) there are those outside of HybridZ that would not hesitate to profit from a knock off of it.

 

i hope OBX will start to make them so everybody can have them and use them

 

common man .. im very sorry but this post offends me.. reverse engineering is great in my book. then again it is not upto you to decide to reproduce these or not or what to do with the data its upto monster and Tony D

Also if one would like to copy buying one is relatively 'easily' done

 

On that note however im all for a group buy!

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Just so you guys understand, I have a day job, actually one I quite enjoy. Z cars are my hobby and will stay that way. I have no plans to make, reproduce, sell, devalue or profit from any Z plenums out there. I will have spent way more time and money on my design than if I just went and paid top dollar for an HKS. This is purely a fun learning experience that I am going through to build myself a plenum for my project. My purpose to this thread is to show all what we learn so that everybody may better have a idea of what to do when they make their own. This is what I thought this forum is about and why I like it so much. A group of intelligent creative people who love to build and fabricate their own z parts to make their z-cars into what they always dreamed about. I am seeing more and more post of people trying to sell stuff on this forum, I hope this site doesn’t become that, you won’t see this from me.

 

So seriously don’t you think that if somebody really wanted to copy and rip off the old HKS plenums they would have by now?

 

MonZter

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Has anyone thought of using vortex generators in the intake manifold? Since it "works" improving the aero of the Z body shouldn't it work in the intake tract?

With the VERY high velocity they may be able to be used to create a counter-rotation that could cancel out the vortecies all-together. Have I injested too much bad cheese or does it make sense?

 

I think the idea of a intake-tract set of vortex generators could create a counter-tornado that could work.

 

I have talked to my aerodynamics and aircraft performance teachers in great lengths discussing the idea of vortex generators on the inlets of turbo jet engines..

 

the universal answer is = NO

 

In a reciprocating engine you want as much velocity as you can get.. while a turbo jet engine you want as much pressure as you can get... (in the inlet)

 

For example.. turbo jet engines such as the CF6-6 engine in the DC-10-10 have 16 stages of compressor blades.. the more pressure on compressor section one.. the more the total output is after the 16th stage into the combustion chamber..

 

As for an reciprocating engine.. you want a great velocity down the intake stream to fill the cylinder up with air as quickly as you can. This can be done by creating a high velocity intake stream to slam into the intake valve while its closed and build pressure while in addition allowing fast flowing air into the cylinder. As the air fills into the cylinder, the area from the intake runner and cylinder head to the cylinder greater expands.. slowing the airflow and building pressure.

 

The other idea for providing power in a reciprocating engine is creating loads of pressure (turbo/supercharger) and the high pressure air will flow quickly into the cylinder as the intake valve opens. (high pressure always always flows to low pressure). Obviously you need high velocity air when the turbo is not producing boost for off boost performance. IF a reciprocating engine was always under pressure obviously this would be the best setup. This obviously isn't the case in any engine I know of.

 

Adding vortex generators simply extends or thickens the boundary layer.. which lowers the overall diameter of the pipe/plenum. This will increase the velocity and decrease the pressure (bernoulli). The problem with adding vortex generators to stop the "tornado" would increase and decrease pressure in odd locations in the plenum. This would also redirect the fast moving airstream. Now your looking at a low pressure chamber with lots of swirling fast moving air without a direction...

 

I dont know if I can write *my understanding* down in words.. but let me know if i'm off a bit.

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For example.. turbo jet engines such as the CF6-6 engine in the DC-10-10 have 16 stages of compressor blades.. the more pressure on compressor section one.. the more the total output is after the 16th stage into the combustion chamber..

 

I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember from my thermo class the bigger reason to used staged compressors is to reduce the total amount of entropy (and thus efficiency)

 

i.e. The total entropy is less across sixteen stages than one stage assuming the overall pressure drop is the same.

 

I'm sure there are many here that are WAY more knowledgeable than me, so if I'm proved wrong I won't be that surprised...:wink:

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I havent taken a thermo class unfortunately.. so I may have to look into that more..

 

All i do know is the Total Pressure at the inlet is 14.7 psi while the Total Temp (F*) is 59* on a standard day on the JT8D. By the 13th stage the total pressure is 233 psi as the total temp climbs to 800* F.

 

i dont know why staged compressor blades would

reduce the total amount of entropy (and thus efficiency)
. It seems that staged compressor blades would INCREASE efficiency and not reduce the efficiency?! Obviously HEAT is the energy.. and building the pressure and heat up more and more would increase the heat output therefore producing more thrust?!

 

anyway... NO on the VG's in the intake tract

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Silversix the pictures are already out there, I saw these posted a couple of days ago on the site. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=130025

 

There are few of us who will try to build our own boxes and others will just spend the cash on the real things.

 

The comparison from this posts new tech design to the old tech HSK would be interesting. I for one would like to see it.

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Prox,

That seems odd. Lots of articles I have read about V8 cylinder heads is about adding swirl to the intake tract into the chamber.

If the vortex generator idea doesn't work then it doesn't work...

It was just a passing idea that I had and might experiment with on the L series test mule that I'm getting the parts for.

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the swirl effect in intake systems is designed to better atomize the air/fuel for a more efficient burn and prevent detonation.

 

alot of the V8 guys have "swirl valves" which allow the air to swirl into the cylinder for better atomization. nameless examples of engines could use the swirl valve, or a variable intake design where the end of the runner creates a swirl before it hits the valve.

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On the V-8 engines they use a carb before the intake so the manifold is wet. On this intake the plenum it is dry because of the injector placement. Getting the air to start to swirl once it enters the runners and into the cylinder is a good thing for what you say, but having it swirl in the plenum will just make heat and reduce flow.

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