Mikelly Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 Motor in the Zcar has to come out. Just drove it 1/4 mile to the gas station and back and it is puking oil out the dipstick and feels like it wants to let loose above 4500 RPM. I'm going to pull it down after we get back from our vacation to Nags Head. This is obviously going to set me back on my plans for the fall... WONDERFUL!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkumaY Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 sorry to hear.... puking oil out of dipstick....excessive crankcase pressure i would guess. cranked ring lands maybe? did you run it lean? or low on oil or anything? are you getting excessive blowby through the valve cover breathers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Watch out for the while it's apart bug. Fix it and put it back together Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 (edited) Wow - wonder what happened? Really sorry to hear about this as it hosed your fall plans. But think of it as a chance to do some updating and bullet proofing, only looking towards advances in longevity and peace of mind. What comes to mind for me also are dyno pulls with detonation that couldn't be heard, but weakening the ring lands. You were making great power and it sounds like you were pleased with how it ran, so I would only be looking to upgrade for longevity in the build. Maybe the only thing to change otherwise during the rebuild is the installation of some knock sensors and some instrumentation/datalogging for them? You can use GM knock sensors in the coolant drain holes just above the pan rail (either side) a la LT1. Go with some high end pistons while you are at it (sorry, Mark), to keep away from this issue even if it wasn't the cause. Anyway, there have been a lot of OE and competition advances in rings and cylinder preparation in the last 10 years that you may want to look into while you're fixing this. The pistons will probably have to be replaced, so why not grab up some of this technology while fixing it? A bit more power to be had, but more importantly, less oil burning and the subsequent fouling of the combustion chamber, longer life, etc. Oh, and less emissions, (couldn't resist). Enjoy Nags Head! Edited September 8, 2012 by pparaska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Sorry to hear. Lets keep our spirits high and find some good in all this. DAMN........ Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 So right now I am in Nage Head, NC with the family. On the long drive down I was thinking about all the time wasted. All the money spent... all the frustration... So I am just going to sell the damned thing and go back to Porsches... JUST KIDDING! So yesterday morning I got up early, put on my robe and some shoes and walked down to the shop. I raised the car on the lift and took a peek. I then checked the oil level on the dipstick... and noticed that the oil is WAY over-filled. I then checked the accusump. With the new EPC unit installed, the accusump isn't refilling. So there is that... And I think I have yet another additional quart in the pan... Had to dig back to when we were at the track in July to remember that I put an additional quart of oil in the car. So I m running 11 quarts of oil in a system that should have 7 quarts in the oil pan (Champ roadrace pan), 2 quarts for the accusump, a quart for the remote filter/lines/oil cooler. So when I get back, I will drain all the oil, and start over. I need to troubleshoot why the accusump isn't refilling and if I can't get it to work, take it outo of the picture all together. Then I'll see what is what. Pete, I already have forged pistons and rods in this build. I would only consider upgrading parts that are damaged and maybe the cam. I am also going to attempt to built some headers. I need to resolve the header problem. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 So right now I am in Nage Head, NC with the family. On the long drive down I was thinking about all the time wasted. All the money spent... all the frustration... So I am just going to sell the damned thing and go back to Porsches... JUST KIDDING! So yesterday morning I got up early, put on my robe and some shoes and walked down to the shop. I raised the car on the lift and took a peek. I then checked the oil level on the dipstick... and noticed that the oil is WAY over-filled. I then checked the accusump. With the new EPC unit installed, the accusump isn't refilling. So there is that... And I think I have yet another additional quart in the pan... Had to dig back to when we were at the track in July to remember that I put an additional quart of oil in the car. So I m running 11 quarts of oil in a system that should have 7 quarts in the oil pan (Champ roadrace pan), 2 quarts for the accusump, a quart for the remote filter/lines/oil cooler. So when I get back, I will drain all the oil, and start over. I need to troubleshoot why the accusump isn't refilling and if I can't get it to work, take it outo of the picture all together. Then I'll see what is what. Pete, I already have forged pistons and rods in this build. I would only consider upgrading parts that are damaged and maybe the cam. I am also going to attempt to built some headers. I need to resolve the header problem. Mike You had me there for a few seconds. There have been times where I actually think that there was some sort of Devine Intervention on stuff I dont know how that happened or what I was going to do. Only to wake up the next day to a completely different set of circumstances. Glad to hear this is only a slight setback and maybe even a blessing. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Thanks Matt... Several of you guys asked how it could have happened. It probably happened over the course of two events... The first time back in June when I ran NCCAR the car was getting lean on the backside of the 280 degree turn and wouldn't recover until the front straight, four corners later. So I only drove the car a handful of laps. That lead to the overhaul of my fuel delivery system and the instal of the fuel safe black box and integrated fuel pump, along with new fuel line. Then at Summit Point in July the car was exhibiting problems with the gauges, reading high oil and coolant temps and low oil pressure... That lead to me gutting all wiring in the car and creating a new dash from kydex, and buying the FAST Dash to integrate all the sensors and monitoring in one discrete data logging display. So it could well have been caused by that. We will see. If it does need to be overhauled, the following will happen: Ditch the hydraulic roller cam and go solid. Make my own headers so I can stop worrying about the block-hugger clearance issues. Add a drysump system. Add better pistons and maybe lighter rods. Add an aluminum flywheel. Everyone I know is telling me to ditch the 383 and just go with the LS1. But I am not so sure that there would be an advantage at this stage. I would have to re-work the bellhousing to motor issue for my TKO600 and the hydraulics, and I am reading that has issues with exhaust and steering linkage clearance on some platforms as well. So I will see what is awaiting me when I get home. I am pretty sure the combo of a solid lifter cam and better headers would be worth a fair amount of HP increase. Mike Edited September 10, 2012 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Mike, you had me going there too. Good one. The Z is going to be a much less expensive track car, but you know that. For a track car, I can see the desire for custom long tubes. Also, you have no reason to NOT go solid roller. I've run one the street for years with no trouble and no real need to be checking clearances any more often than a Track car would dictate. I probably check clearances every 1000 miles. It's not a big deal and I actually enjoy it. Just make sure you go with a good lifter design. I like the Isky's with the bushing in the roller versus the needle bearings. I'd think about going for some larger diameter pushrods, even if you have to go to offset lifters and machining of the pushrod holes in the heads to do it. The "new" experience of the top end builders say to go with stiff pushrods, even if it means more spring pressure. I'd be looking into T&D or Yello Terra shaft rockers too (I love spending your money!!!) to ensure valvetrain precision and durability. As for the LS versus SBC, I agree, you have all this stuff engineered for the SBC, changing would be expensive int terms of up front costs, and debugging. You can make plenty of power with the SBC, and make it reliable. Remember the oiling issues you had with the vette? Well, you have to fight the oiling issues tracking both engines, by going away from the OE stuff, and there's a lot more years of experience doing that with the SBC, although I'm sure the oiling issues of the LS on track have been engineered too. If you get into it and see any cylinder wall issues, I am saying just forget the OE block and go with a Dart block. 50 pounds more weight but a MUCH better choice for a track car. Mine's worked out well. You gain oiling upgrades among other things that just make sense on a track car. Love spending your money! Just kidding. This stuff is relatively cheap (Dart block, shaft rockers, etc.) compared to the German Car stuff you are used to buying, but will make the car more reliable and bullet proof. Edited September 10, 2012 by pparaska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) At that point I'd just go the LS1 route. Replacing the block would be the kiss of death for sure...And remember when we were at Chin Motorsports? You and Icard wrenching your cars while mine was fresh as a daisy waiting for the next run session? That's the argument for the German car. Spending upwards of $1000 for a weekend at the track with the entry fee, lodging, food, and other expenses, it gets to the point of exceedingly high diminishing returns when you're not on track driving the car you brought. I've driven less this year than any other year, and it's due to the commitment I made to sort this car out this year. Don't get me wrong, I love this Datsun, No let me correct that, I've fallen BACK in love with this Datsun again. But it has not proven to be reliable yet. I will be the first to crow the loudest when I get through a full season (30 days) of tracking the Zcar. But at this point, I don't hold those expectations. Mike Edited September 11, 2012 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 At that point I'd just go the LS1 route. Replacing the block would be the kiss of death for sure...And remember when we were at Chin Motorsports? You and Icard wrenching your cars while mine was fresh as a daisy waiting for the next run session? That's the argument for the German car. Spending upwards of $1000 for a weekend at the track with the entry fee, lodging, food, and other expenses, it gets to the point of exceedingly high diminishing returns when you're not on track driving the car you brought. I've driven less this year than any other year, and it's due to the commitment I made to sort this car out this year. Don't get me wrong, I love this Datsun, No let me correct that, I've fallen BACK in love with this Datsun again. But it has not proven to be reliable yet. I will be the first to crow the loudest when I get through a full season (30 days) of tracking the Zcar. But at this point, I don't hold those expectations. Mike When I made the decision to go with the LS setup it wasn't because I tripped over one and fell on it. I asked just about every racer I knew and got their input on what has worked for them and weighed the options. After much due diligence it was clear that the LS was the way to go. All the parts work together, they are affordable, it makes great power, and mostly it seemed that the majority of people I spoke with refered to it as the best small block ever designed. I dont know if you knew this but I was a FORD guy all the way. It took a lot for me to even consider a Bow Tie product. It is obvious to me after all the sweat put into my current setup and the race results we have had since the switch, that I made the right choice. Just my opinion............... If you need any help with questions regarding any LS combination, I have some of the best guys in the business on my team, dont hesitate to call. BTW: You said you have "fallen back in love with the Datsun", I assure you that it is very rewarding to give chase and even overcome some pretty nice German engineering. You need to come down to Atlanta and we can take my Datsun to AMP and I'll let you drive it. I dont make that offer often, but I think it would give you good insite on what direction to go. Matt 404-218-0588 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) Matt, I appreciate the offer. I scattered an LS1 internals all over VIR's bridge straight about 7 years ago in a C5 Vette. They're great motors and I actually have one sitting in my shop right now, ready to go. It has a comp cams roadrace cam, Yellow Terra rockers, a pair of patriot heads, and is making decent power. Just trying to decide the direction to go in. I may take you up on your offer though... Much appreciated. Mike Edited September 11, 2012 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 OK so now the motor is officially officially coming out. In draining the oil this evening I found more sparkle in the oil than you'd find in a strip club. So we're going to have to go through the motor and find the culprit. Something expensive def. got ate up in the process... There was over half an inch of "gunk" stuck to the drain plug on the oil pan and a lot more in the filter... It ain't pretty. So I've started the process of disconnecting "things" and expect to pull the motor this week in the evenings. Then I'll load the car up in the car trailer and store it until I get the motor rebuilt to better, more durable specification. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rywats Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Bad luck! Keep the updates coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 Well shoot... After reading THIS thread, I'm seriously thinking I need to build my LS1 motor. Will be more in the long run from a cost standpoint, but man I think that additional 100# off the front of the car would be nice... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 Busy few hours this afternoon... After just under two hours I had everything disconnected and the motor out of the car: Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Mike, ya got nuttin' on the Woods Brothers, but that's pretty awesome. Any idea where the sparkly stuff came from? Main or Rod bearings? Cam? And any idea why you had metal to metal wear like that? I understand the weight issue - my Dart block added another 50 lbs to the engine compartment. Not sure how much ended up on the front vs the rear tires. I'm betting that in the short and long run, it'll be easier and cheaper to debug the oiling issue and just put the old school SBC back in than to re-engineer the car for the LS, although I fully understand the reasons to want to go that route - if my 406 ever comes out again, an LS will probably replace it. Sorry to hear that your Fall track plans got set back - or is the P-car going in it's place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) Pete, I haven't had the chance to remove the pan or a head yet. I'll get to that this weekend. My strategy will most likely be to have the 383 stroker freshened. Then run it for the rest of this year and try to sell it in the spring. I'll build the LS based motor over the winter. The LS swap is def. in my future, for sure. Getting this platform to sub-2500 pounds at 450 to 500 wheel HP would make the "Perfect" check box for me... Mike Edited September 20, 2012 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Well this is even more peculiar... No metal in the valley and the roller lifters/rockers/pushrods show nothing... Pulled the heads and there is ZERO evidence of any issues in the cylinders... No scoring, nothing... Some evidence of "sludgy" gunk like assembly lube in the pan, but the bottom of the motor looks clean, with no metal... Didn't pull a main cap or rod cap just yet, but that has to be it, because I'm not seeing anything else so far. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 When you run a motor dry, the mains and big ends will take a beating before anything else since they are depending on the thin film of oil to prevent metal to metal contact. If you see metal in the filter it is more than a probability that it came from the bearings. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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