choice of engine swap?

[Gollum]

SR20 would be another nissan option around those power goals and cost.

 

Shoot, 300/350hp is so easy to make with most engines.

 

VG30ET

VG30DETT

VQ35DE

VH45DE

VK56DE

SR20DET

RB20DET

RB25DET

RB26DETT

L28ET

KA24DE(t)

CA18DET

 

All those would make the grade. And that's just nissan.

 

How about toyota, GM, ford? Thier lists are just as long if not extremely longer in the case of the american companies. Those power levels are pretty attainable for any motor over 1.8 liter with force induction, or a naturally aspirated motor over 3.5 liters.

[jaimesix]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I've never seen one of these rotaries that runs at 9K all day long. I've been around a number of the turbo cars and they don't seem to last too long before needing rebuilds. Most of the rotaries I've seen don't rev much more than the piston engines.

 

We had a number of the FD cars where I race and they are fast. But they don't seem to deal with abuse for long before they are wounded. And how much do you think a Z weighs.

 

Check the latest Rolex 24 hour Daytona race. A Mazda RX8 won the race outright with a rotary engine in the GT class category. 9th overall and first in GT class competing against all big guns.

The rest of the pack nade it to the end line with great positions.

 

Check information:

 

 

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/984

 

Rotary engines are great and worth of consideration. On any given day, there are more rotary engines in competition than any other brand of engine . There must be a reason for it. I hope Nissan develops it's own version Rotary Engine. Back in the 60s Nissan/Datsun was working on it.

 

Jaime.____________________________________________________

[jaimesix]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I've never seen one of these rotaries that runs at 9K all day long. I've been around a number of the turbo cars and they don't seem to last too long before needing rebuilds. Most of the rotaries I've seen don't rev much more than the piston engines.

 

We had a number of the FD cars where I race and they are fast. But they don't seem to deal with abuse for long before they are wounded. And how much do you think a Z weighs.

 

Just to add, I had several rotary engine cars ( I am a Mazda and Datsun fan, curently owning a Datsun 710, 610, 1200 p/u, RX7, RX8 , and owned an RX3 which I regret having sold ) Rotary engines are ultra strong. It is a myth that rotary engines are bad. They last long, provided the cooling system works ( unlike a piston engine with a steel cylinder head that can overheat . A aluminum cyl head piston engine can not overheat and it's cyl head warps easily ) and the oil is kept within specification.

 

About the weight of the Z as consideration, the 20B 3 rotor engine is more than enough for a Datsun Z. It has 400 HP outright w/o modifications.

This engine was offered in Eunos Mazda Cosmo cars never available in the US. Available in Japan, UK, NZ,and other nations.

 

Jaime.______________________________________________

[Gollum]

It's really sketchy on your part to start talking about race motors as though that same engine could be reved like that in a street car and be reliable.

 

Nascar revs pushrod motors to levels unheard of, does that mean we should even attempt it? NO WAY!!! Just because they can get a windsor based V8 to rev past 10k doesn't make it safe nor reliable.

 

Plus lets not forget just because an engine is designed to survive a 24 hour race doesn't make it reliable. Odds are after that race they'll be tearing down that motor to give it a full overhaul before the next race. An F1 V8 is so touchy you can't use cold oil in it. They have to feed the engine hot oil before starting it because the tolerances are so tight. These engines also rev past 25k...

 

The new renesis as a redline of 9k, and it might be semi-reliable. But just like all engines I'm sure running it that high more often than not will take it's toll on the engine.

 

Look, nobody here has been outright flaming the rotory motors, but you're acting as though someone has. We all here enjoy rotory motors probably more than MOST car forums on the internet, but we're not fanboys that's for SURE.

 

Oh, and if I recall correcly wasn't the 20B rated at 280PS? That's a far cry from 400hp, and rotory motors have had quite the history with overrated power...

[tube80z]

Check the latest Rolex 24 hour Daytona race. A Mazda RX8 won the race outright with a rotary engine in the GT class category. 9th overall and first in GT class competing against all big guns.

The rest of the pack nade it to the end line with great positions.

 

Now you're talking about a real race engine. The RX8 engine in the GT class isn't going to be the same engine as you'd get in a normal RX8. The Brumos Porsche Crawford runs similar RPM levels. Sure those last for a race at 9K all day and get tore down and inspected/rebuilt for the next race. That's not the same as saying I have a buddy with a stock turbo RX-7 and it can run 9K all day. It would be far more reasonable to say that your buddy has an engine with hardened stationary gears, upgraded apex seals, etc. And unless he has seriously upgraded the cooling system he'll have a hard time pushing the engine that hard for long.

 

And yes Mazda has had a lot of racing success with rotaries. But on any one day I'd put my money on a chevy as being the dominant engine. Just think about NASCAR, all the feeder series, drag racing, etc.

 

It's not that I have anything against rotaries but the hype surrounding them is ridiculous. It would be cool to see a three-rotor powered Z for sure. But there would be a lot of problems to solve. The 20B used to be used in a few SCCA EM cars. But noise restrictions have forced most of those guys to swap over to different engines. So if you're really looking for one you may find a few out there already setup.

 

Years ago I was very excited to put a rotary into a 510. After a lot of research I found out that the beer keg engine needed a lot of exhaust, a huge radiator, and a lot of oil cooling. Unfortunately it's never as simple as it seems.

 

We agree that rotaries are cool. But my experience has been that when pushed they aren't as reliable as most people think and add a turbo and it only goes downhill. There seem to be a lot of TSBs on the new RX8 to back that up.

[rudypoochris]

On any given day, there are more rotary engines in competition than any other brand of engine.

 

Source?

 

They last long, provided the cooling system works (unlike a piston engine with a steel cylinder head that can overheat . A aluminum cyl head piston engine can not overheat and it's cyl head warps easily) and the oil is kept within specification.

 

Source?

[Gritz]

With a 10K buget..I would go Ls1...

 

Ls1 6 speed motor set cost about 5k???? so it should be doable if you do all the work yourself

[Gritz]

Here is one under 5K http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-Trans-Am-Camaro-LS1-engine-w-6-speed-trans-118K-LS2_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ001QQitemZ110261019871QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[jaimesix]

Source?

 

 

 

Source?

 

Hi.

 

About the rotary engine being the engine most used in racing today , and the statement that there are more rotary engines racing on any given day, SCCA can reply to that. I found that information in SCCA bulletins , and it is a fact. The rotary engine has been swapped into a lot of racing vehicles .

 

The second statement, what I meant to say is that piston engines with steel cylinder heads can endure higher temperatures w/o damage. Aluminum cylinder heads can not endure high , extreme temperatures with out damage. Aluminum cylinder heads are more fragile.

For that matter, temperature considerations are facts applicable to both piston and rotary engines, and the rotary engine is not prone to or suffers from overheating.

 

I like both piston and rotary engines, like I said I have Datsun cars, a Suzuki 4X4, as well as rotary engined cars. I do not take sides.

My initial comment was meant to invite the person considering engine swaps to study the posibility of a rotary engine, the 20B in particular.There are other great engines that can be swaped, it is up to the owner of the vehicle to decide which way to go.

 

Jaime.____________________________________________________

[socal73HS30]

Hi.

 

 

I like both piston and rotary engines, like I said I have Datsun cars, a Suzuki 4X4, as well as rotary engined cars. I do not take sides.

My initial comment was meant to invite the person considering engine swaps to study the posibility of a rotary engine, the 20B in particular.There are other great engines that can be swaped, it is up to the owner of the vehicle to decide which way to go.

 

Jaime.____________________________________________________

 

 

as far as i'm concerned, they look like crap, sound like crap, i can't work on them, it would be just as expensive a swap as any other, parts are unavailable and/or hard to find (or i can pay mazda dealer prices.. not), not nearly as much resource or market for the engine, not as much R/D on rotary engines... so the engine design is not advancing as rapidly, etc etc etc. i could go all day thinking up reasons for me not to choose a rotary engine, and any one of them is reason enough not to put it in my zcar.

sorry, wont even consider it. not a snowballs chance in hell of a rotary in my z.

[rudypoochris]

About the rotary engine being the engine most used in racing today , and the statement that there are more rotary engines racing on any given day, SCCA can reply to that. I found that information in SCCA bulletins , and it is a fact. The rotary engine has been swapped into a lot of racing vehicles .

 

What SCCA bulletin? Is this ANY racing, or is this professional racing? Any kind of link at all? Any resource? Any mention of who conducted this survey?

 

The second statement, what I meant to say is that piston engines with steel cylinder heads can endure higher temperatures w/o damage. Aluminum cylinder heads can not endure high , extreme temperatures with out damage. Aluminum cylinder heads are more fragile.

For that matter, temperature considerations are facts applicable to both piston and rotary engines, and the rotary engine is not prone to or suffers from overheating.

 

Ummm... I don't know of a single piston engine that uses a steel cylinder head. It is typically cast iron or aluminum. Furthermore, iron cylinder heads CRACK when exposed to high heat... Aluminum heads don't. Double furthermore, piston engines DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH OVERHEATING. They haven't pretty much since conception. They have an issue with overheating if their cooling system is improperly set up or damaged. Any IC engine out there right now is going to generate a ton of heat, rotary, piston, etc.

 

I am not saying rotary engines are bad at all, but lets get the basic facts straight first. There is a multitude of reasons as to why rotary engines are not the norm and piston engines are. It isn't some coveted technological marvel. They just don't compare in all honesty when you look at things such as; power under the curve, fuel economy, and reliability. These 3 things are easily enough to separate an ideal engine from a less than ideal one. In fact, just one of those things can do it.

[jaimesix]

as far as i'm concerned, they look like crap, sound like crap, i can't work on them, it would be just as expensive a swap as any other, parts are unavailable and/or hard to find (or i can pay mazda dealer prices.. not), not nearly as much resource or market for the engine, not as much R/D on rotary engines... so the engine design is not advancing as rapidly, etc etc etc. i could go all day thinking up reasons for me not to choose a rotary engine, and any one of them is reason enough not to put it in my zcar.

sorry, wont even consider it. not a snowballs chance in hell of a rotary in my z.

 

I do not care about your childish posture, go play with snowballs little bratt, learn how to talk like a grown up.

[jaimesix]

What SCCA bulletin? Is this ANY racing, or is this professional racing? Any kind of link at all? Any resource? Any mention of who conducted this survey?

 

 

 

Ummm... I don't know of a single piston engine that uses a steel cylinder head. It is typically cast iron or aluminum. Furthermore, iron cylinder heads CRACK when exposed to high heat... Aluminum heads don't. Double furthermore, piston engines DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH OVERHEATING. They haven't pretty much since conception. They have an issue with overheating if their cooling system is improperly set up or damaged. Any IC engine out there right now is going to generate a ton of heat, rotary, piston, etc.

 

About the SCCA, you can go to their site, you can call them and talk to the staff, I am not going to do what you can do. It is as simple as you contacting them, what I told you about the rotary engine is a fact, and I am behind it 100%. If you want to corroborate that fact, contact SCCA, it is up to you, as easy as that.

 

Thank you for explaining my point to your Z audience. A piston engine and a rotary engine have the same cooling requirements and risks. A rotary engine is not prone to, nor has any engine tempereture problems inherent to it's design. Some people like to make phony statements about rotary engines, and say that rotaries overheat....among the list of ignorant comments.

 

I am not saying rotary engines are bad at all, but lets get the basic facts straight first. There is a multitude of reasons as to why rotary engines are not the norm and piston engines are. It isn't some coveted technological marvel. They just don't compare in all honesty when you look at things such as; power under the curve, fuel economy, and reliability. These 3 things are easily enough to separate an ideal engine from a less than ideal one. In fact, just one of those things can do it.

 

Rotary engines are not the norm, because only one company was able to master it's design well enough to be marketable. Many tried, ( including Nissan/ Datsun ) , and most failed.

 

I am leaving this thread, it is obvious this is a ridiculous argument in which people take sides, when there is no side to take, these are combustion engines, options available.

 

Suddenly I become the enemy and the rotary engine is something to retort at.

 

Bon Voyage.

 

____________________________________________________________

[Gritz]

About the SCCA, you can go to their site, you can call them and talk to the staff, I am not going to do what you can do. It is as simple as you contacting them, what I told you about the rotary engine is a fact, and I am behind it 100%. If you want to corroborate that fact, contact SCCA, it is up to you, as easy as that.

 

Thank you for explaining my point to your Z audience. A piston engine and a rotary engine have the same cooling requirements and risks. A rotary engine is not prone to, nor has any engine tempereture problems inherent to it's design. Some people like to make phony statements about rotary engines, and say that rotaries overheat....among the list of ignorant comments.

 

 

 

Rotary engines are not the norm, because only one company was able to master it's design well enough to be marketable. Many tried, ( including Nissan/ Datsun ) , and most failed.

 

I am leaving this thread, it is obvious this is a ridiculous argument in which people take sides, when there is no side to take, these are combustion engines, options available.

 

Suddenly I become the enemy and the rotary engine is something to retort at.

 

Bon Voyage.

 

____________________________________________________________

 

Which is the reason i gave up...people will think one way...and not appreciate something for what it is..One thing for sure, there not many 1.3lt piston engines that can make 600whp-700whp....

[rudypoochris]

Once again. Rotary engines are NOT the norm for the aforementioned short companies... "One company mastered it". Maybe they did, I don't think so personally. So why don't they use it in all their cars then? Maybe because it isn't ideal for all the reasons I just mentioned. It certainly is not complex.

[Gritz]

About how much would it cost to convert a l28 turbo...and would you have to rebuild to do so if your aiming for 350-400whp?

[JSpecGC8]

ROFLMFAO

 

From experience, the 13B-REW is a great motor for a LIGHT tune, when you start pushing the envelope, the margin for error becomes a huge wall with a pinhole in the middle, nothing wrong with them but they are precision pieces of machinery. You either know exactly what your doing, or you absolutely do not touch it, or you get someone who does.

 

Man all these engine post are getting me to the point where I want to just slap a EJ207 out of a JDM STi and go from there.

[Gollum]

Which is the reason i gave up...people will think one way...and not appreciate something for what it is..One thing for sure, there not many 1.3lt piston engines that can make 600whp-700whp....

 

Well that's because it's not a 1.3. There's only one company that considers the 13B a 1.3 liter, Mazda. Do you think SCCA an all other racing circuits are stupid? The heads of these orgnaizations are engineers that have their own history in racing and can build a car themselves from the ground up. They know how to build engines and even engineer engines, they're not stupid people.

 

The 13B has 6 combustions per cylce, mazda counts 2... See a problem here? Some say "well rotory motors are just efficient like that!" Well, ok, let's get to the meat of the issue.

 

A single rotor has THREE sides, that's THREE combustion chambers, therefor with two rotors you have SIX chambers and now it's a 6 cylinder, not a 2. And in this sense you could call it a 6 cylinder that operates slower than it should and it unefficient because it only gets 4 off in a normal 720 degree cycle. The rotory motor needs 900 degrees to come back to "TDC" in a sense, or to burn every chamber once.

 

Mazda counts the displacement twice because that's better for taxes in japan. One could also say it's because after one rotation of the engine, (one rotation of the driveshaft in 4th gear at 1:1 ratio) the engine has created 2 power strokes, and then the engine repeates itself so it should only be counted twice... But a regular 4 cylinder will only fire twice in one rotation so should we only count 2 cylinders?

 

Call the 13B what it really is, a 2.6 liter that makes squat for power naturally aspirated, and it's RIGHT IN LINE with power per cubic inch with other semi-performance motors. It even gets comparable gas milage to some other high strung mid 2 liter engines, so where's the advantage?

 

It doesn't make extra HP for it's displacement (oh, you can get a 2 liter 4 cylinder up over 1000hp... much more common than 1000hp 13B motors...), it doesn't get better gas milage for it's displacement. It's only advantage is it's size, and then weight. Even the weight isn't increadible. A formula 1 engine is far lighter with 3.0 liters of displacement and makes much, much, MUCH more HP.

 

It's not that mazda is the only company to "master" a rotory engine. Nobody just wants to deal with the headache. And in all honesty, if mazda can't figure out how to get the engine to not burn oil, they don't have a future in production cars sadly.

 

=================================

 

Now that I've said all that. I do appreciate rotory motors and like them for what they are. They're a neat engine that I think is a cool swap into many cars, but too many people hate or love them for all the wrong reasons.

[socal73HS30]

I do not care about your childish posture, go play with snowballs little bratt, learn how to talk like a grown up.

 

hmm, perhaps you should look to see the "childish bratt" who is the first to throw insults. you are the one who came in here "suggesting" that i consider a rotary.... i gave a list of engines that i would consider in my car, and rotary is not on that list. so, without being insulting, i was direct and said... in essence... get with the thread, or gtfo.

 

and while a rotary was suggested before by gritz, he did not directly and deliberately say that i should consider such an engine, whereby forcing his opinions and bias upon me. which you chose to do. so that in and of itself is disrepsectful of me.

 

now, i guess calling names and pissing on others is acting like an adult according to yourself. so maybe you should get younger.

 

cheers

[socal73HS30]

About how much would it cost to convert a l28 turbo...and would you have to rebuild to do so if your aiming for 350-400whp?

 

it all depends on how much money you want to put in. personally, i dont know if an l28 can handle that kind of hp on stock internals. my guess would be no. but even if it could, i'd spend the money and replace the internals anyway. i'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

also, upgrading to turbo depends on your car setup already. will you have to buy a new fuel pump? pressure regulator? how nice do you want it to look? it's all money, and how much you are willing to spend to make it right.

 

... which is the stage i'm at. look up, research, read, test, ask, etc etc etc. and do my homework before i take any action. there was a 280zxt for sale here in so cal. complete car for $600. i was 1/2 tempted to go buy it for necessary parts. but then i have to think, will i need a bigger turbo than the T3 it came with? do i want a p90a head for the quieter lifters as compared to a p90. the car wouldnt turn over, what is wrong with it before the swap goes in? simple wiring problem or is it something worse like a fried ecu?... so i waited.

 

and part of it is, my z-mentor doesnt know much about the l28et's, all the racing he did with z's was in the late 70's, before the turbo car even came out.

 

all hail the internet?

 

this site was pretty helpful for me for the basics, and in getting a general idea of what could be used from stock and what would need to be upgraded and replaced.

 

http://www.xenons130.com/l28et.html