Project 240Z Turbo ITB Install

[Kirkster]

Wow...  Nice thread, wish it had a happier ending with some dyno sheets.  

 

I was looking hard at the Extrudabody ITBs, or something like 1 Fast Z did with his silver 77 Z.

 

I am in the process of building a 240Z with a L28 engine swap (still have to get the engine built as I am getting everything done to it that is possible under SCCA Street Prepared rules).  I am going to do a Megasquirt to run the engine.

 

I am still trying to figure out the intake as I can't change the stock head other than port matching so I have to get the most efficient intake and exhaust setup I can.

 

Ugh...

[Tony D]

I'm sure everydoby with the ditch it and go with something else has something they just happen to sell which would solve the problem.

 

There HAS to be more than the dyno strapdown issue. If you TRULY gave up after one shot on the dyno....you are pursuing the wrong hobby.

 

I had great MS results for about 15 minutes. For the NEXT TWO YEARS I went through reset hell, and populated Moby's thread with all sorts of issues.

 

In the end it was MY LAPTOP COMM CHIP corrupting it when I went online to program.

 

I have often warned other people touting "Ditch MS, get an SDS" that connecting your injectors backwards or other connections will fry an SDS same as any issue they may be having on MS.

 

In the end it comes to the person doing the work and how detail oriented they are. . . 

 

Gollum's comment about Big Phil and his Buddy....JeffP was going down the same path determined he needed "30psi" to get his 500HP... and a forged Rebello bottom end 3.0. Now he's making 475 on C16 at 17psi at 6500 rpms and lamenting he didn't listen to me when it was all on the Rebello bottom end and make a full redline pass at only 8psi to see where the power peak was (still climbing hitting the rev limiter at 7400 on cast pistons...)

 

I grew up on VW's and then moved to Japan for five years. I was not infected by CBell and "Maximum Boost" and found it an interesting counterpoint to printed media like Bob Tomlinson's "Turbomania" ... Of course, Corky had a BUNCH of cool gadgets to sell you to solve any problem you had...

 

I have to concur with Gollum, we seem to both be on the same page. You spent a LOT of money to get where you are---throwing it all away to start over is foolish. 

 

The reason you are doing this is undefined clear goals and planning on the front end.

 

My suggestion would be to go somewhere that knows SDS and have them scope out the unit. It sounds like interference or bad power. Or a bad unit... But it's something that should be solved through a return to SDS for repair at a much lower cost than going with a totally new unit. 

 

I can't count how many projects I've bought (a few people know the story of my black car, bought from an owner that had to sell by someone without a clue how to do what he wanted and who sold to me and was INFURIATED that 45 minutes after I bought the car the 'unsolveable, insurmountable problems" in the car were solved and it was running...DAMN good. My fix? A proper Fuel Pump (not the EFI one for Mikunis) and Fresh Gas. Sure he had screwed up plenty of other stuff that would have caused him torment down the road...but they were all solved with stepping back and thinking about it before blindly dashing off and 'making something happen'... How many projects have ended up wrapped around a tree because the throttle stuck wide open when the builder figured "I'll just roll it out of the shop" after first firing due to excitation of the moment? My buddy bought his LT1 Driveline from such an owner, wrapped around a telephone pole 10 miles elapsed from fire up with a Goodwrench Motor, and new Trans (not rebuilt, NEW!) The T56 Frank280ZX just got has 5K on it due to an optispark issue solved in about two hours by Andy Flagg after we gave him the car with the diagnosis. PO had replaced EVERYTHING BUT the Optispark because...well,.. I guess it was EASIER and they just didn't WANT to dig into the bottom of the motor. The Toyota I donated to the Toyota Museum had EVERY external component on the engine replaced, with a new radiator and head job...before it was abandoned on the street. It was the ONLY car I couldn't get to run reliably. But then again it only had 50psi of compression....on all four. The PO didn't want to do a block bore and overhaul, and instead changed everything on the outside of hte engine instead, hoping that would solve it.

 

Strange mental things happen to people building cars. Denial is huge, and the inability to look in the mirror and admit they may have bitten off more than they can chew, or don't have the skills needed to do something. Like Gollum says, at that point you either learn the skills, or knuckle under and find someone who does. And get it done. 

 

Quitting and starting over will only cost more money. FAR more than diagnosing what the issues are and moving forward with all the time already spent going down the road.

 

Be VERY wary of people suggesting throwing everything away and starting over...they usually have something to sell you. Go elsewhere.

Some of the fastest vehicles on the planet use SDS.You can always get a bum unit, and if that is the case, the SDS people should be able to help out. Because YOU have problems doesn't mean it's a bad system, and at that level of options, that you will find anything 'more modern'.... If you want to plunk $8,000 on a MOTEC, have at it, but if you thought SDS was complex in programming...

 

AIRPLANES use SDS... which is kind of a testament to reliability if you ask me. I'm not touting SDS, I'm just saying you have some symptoms of an electrical bug, and sending the SDS unit back to SDS for a functional check/diagnosis seems to be a prudent step at this point. It's either good, or bad.

 

If it's good, you did something wrong and need to figure out what it is....

If it's bad, you found out, and now can get it fixed...and progress with the project.

 

I don't see what you have undergone as anything NEAR 'trash it and start all over'....now where near that point. Remember a project always takes 2X the time you think, and 3X the money you think.... And that's for people with a good REALISTIC grasp on costs and time. If you were unrealistic....well....nobody else to blame there you are getting an education on searching harder to find people that AREN't giving the 'I found it in the junkyard and was making 460RWHP the next day with bolt ons!' stories...

[HowlerMonkey]

I've been consulting on a couple of reno racers after spending years arguing with them about modern engine management and it looks like motec is a good recipe for 3500+hp without the worry of an intake tract explosion.

 

Hoping to be in demand at reno now that pete law has retired.

[Chemicalblue]

You know, Big-Phil comes to mind, because his friend Chris (who I believe is a member here) owns a blue S30 with a turbo L motor. At one point Chris made 402hp at 17psi while Phil made 342 at 25psi. Phil seemed to run into problem after problem. Phil, as much as I love him, was kind of cheap about certain things. In the end he probably spent as much on his L motor as Chris did, but never saw as much power (from what I recall...). How many turbos did Phil run? He ran TWO different standalones (MS then later haltech). He ended up having to swap/rebuild his bottom end, yada yada yada. 

 

I personally attribute many of Phil's problems he had along the way to his Maximum Boost mindset. He loved power, and instead of planning out a build, he'd turn up the boost until he hit a limitation. Fix that limitation, and then ramp it back up.

 

Tony knows a bit of what I plan, and for my dream L build, that might actually become a reality in the not SO distant future, I'll be putting MOST of my investment into the head, then followed by the fuel system, then followed by other odds and ends. The reality is that I've seen time and time again, THOSE are the places that success comes from. Get the head to flow (which includes induction and exhaust, as a SYSTEM!), and then make sure your fuel system is up to snuff to tackle the challenge at hand. The rest is icing on the cake.

 

I'm sorry to hear you've had issue with SDS. I also understand that it's frustrating to not be able to find someone to help you tune it. It's a rather unfortunate reality, but too many of us buy something we think we can handle ourselves, just to find out we cant', and are then stuck at the mercy of those in the know of that product. The truth is that most people should probably shop for their EMS by who they trust/know to tune it, and go with what they recommend. Many of us assume we can tune an EMS system all by ourself, or assume that a dyno shop can tune ANY EMS... Not always the case sadly...

There was a Big difference between Phil's set up and Chris's set up. Chris's motor was fully built and had a Haltech $$$$, Phil's was meant to get the most out of a budget build and it did that pretty well. Chris has a ton of head work done on his L and that's the main reason for the power difference.

[Gollum]

There was a Big difference between Phil's set up and Chris's set up. Chris's motor was fully built and had a Haltech $$$$, Phil's was meant to get the most out of a budget build and it did that pretty well. Chris has a ton of head work done on his L and that's the main reason for the power difference.

 

 

Wait, is that EXACTLY the point of what I said?

 

Oh wait... and didn't Phil end up spending ABSURD amounts of money on his "budget" build?

 

Off the top of my head I know, phil went through:

 

3 turbos (AT LEAST!)

2 transmissions, or was it 2 and THEN the Z32 upgrade?

3 EFI systems

3 Intakes

2 Short blocks (1st stock, upgraded pistons next time aorund)

Pulled his exhaust for porting AT LEAST twice

 

and on and on.

 

I'm saying the story of Phil and Chris shouldn't be ignored. You can either spend your money on the right parts the first time, knowing you're building a SYSTEM, or you can "wing it" and realize that the same power goals will most likely end up costing money no matter which path you take...

 

 

My budget for my turbo build is staged, so that I can hopefully drive the damn thing while I build it up. I anticipate spending AT LEAST $7k on my VERY budget build, and plan to use junkyard bottom ends the entire time, even if that means going through a shortblock a year. And I also anticipate doing 90% of the work myself, if not 100%. If I decided to have someone like robello build the head the costs will creep. If I decide to have someone ELSE dyno tune it, costs will creep. If I decide at any point to have someone balance a stock crank, rods, and pistons, costs will creep.

 

But the one thing I WON'T do, is tell anybody that I expect it to be "easy" or "affordable" to build a high HP turbo L motor. If you wanna shoot for 300whp then you can do that on a budget all day long. But don't ever expect anyone taking Phil's approach to reach JeffP or TimZ numbers without taking a HUGE $$$ detour along the way.

 

 

Oh, and by the time Phil pulled the L28 to make room for the RB, he had haltech and a was "fully built" too. Still never made the power numbers Chris did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and in case Phil reads this, this is for you! I have every ounce of respect for you and what you've done. You inspire many of us to just get out there and DO IT! I'll never say the path you took was wrong, or even stupid. It's not what I would have done, but that's OKAY!

[Tony D]

I discussed this with JeffP today... The moral is, "if you think you will make 400HP on an L-Series "on a budget" and that budget isn't BIG, you're delusional."

 

There is going to be money spent, and JeffP is sad people don't read the story on his website and pick up that his GOAL was to show people how to make 500 RWHP following a KNOWN formula with all items proven, tested, and repeatable.No need to waste the money, he did that for you on HIS build!

 

Sadly he realizes now that my suggestion of 'building on a junkyard block until you get the fuel tuning right' is DAMN good advice. A stock (BONE STOCK) L28ET bottom end easily handles 450+HP. He corrected me on the figures "489.9 HP at 17psi and using C16" -- this on a stock L28ET bottom end which holds oil temperature at a given point during 475HP Dyno Pulls lasting 5 minutes.

 

All the money, put into the Head, Cam, Turbo, USING A STOCK EXTRUDE-HONED INTAKE, and EFI system made that power. And once you get it there, you can add reliability of forged pistons (and even more power now that you can rev to 8,500 rpms...maybe need to buy a new turbo...but that's evident if you read the page.

 

He's maxing out a GT35R (stonewall) with a stock bottom end not exceeding 7,000 rpms. He's making MORE power with a stock bottom end at almost HALF the boost as he did when he was featured on the cover of Z-Car Magazine.

 

"Every time I talk to you, you cost me $2,000 man!" Well this last talk will only cost was $1,000 and likely he will make more power, at even LOWER boost.

 

There is a point where you can sit back and realize that 380Ft-Lbs of torque at 4,500 rpms on 91 Octane Crap CA Gas on around 8 PSI of boost would actually meet more people's requirements and not have the need for an intercooler, or for that matter significantly altered stock EFI transplant from a Z32. In fact, it would look stock enough (save for that 4" turbo inlet line...) and retain all stock emissions components that you could in fact pass the visual and functional CA SMOG test (another criteria of his build, admittedly departed from but still in his mind as a 'what could we build and still meet smog specs?"

 

The groundwork is out there, it's just that there is so much of a preponderance of the oversimiplified "Maximum Boost Mentality" that telling people they need a $500 porting job and another $500 for a cam doesn't get received well...Especially when there are guys not telling the whole truth about the 'easy big turbo slapped on and make big power" stories all over the internet. They won't line out the whole Big Phil saga like Gollum did. He encapsulated his build history shorter than one of Phil's Videos scene change shots! LOL

 

"YOU WANT YOUR INTAKE VALVE TO BE THE RESTRICTION THAT BUILDS BOOST IN YOUR TURBO CAR, NOTHING ELSE!" a bit extreme, but in the end that really is the goal. Minimize 'pumping losses' same as in an N/A engine. The Turbocharger Revolution was fostered on the idea that you didn't have to properly engineer a system to get big horsepower. And in a way it's true. But proper engineering analysis and thought always pays dividends. Turbos made a lot of people lazy for a long time...

Edited September 2, 2013 by Tony D

[HowlerMonkey]

Tony is correct.

 

What I see quite often is an engine built to the hilt expensively and then quickly destroyed because of a tuning issue.

 

Then the owner reverts back to his junkyard engine, gets the tuning squared away and motors on for years on the junkyard block ending up only 20hp below his super mega built engine's power goal.

 

A "placeholder engine" is good to have around.

[Tony D]

The myth that building a forged bottom end right out the gate will somehow make you immune to damage caused during tuning runs needs to be killed!

 

All that will accomplish is costing you more money when it goes.

 

And did I mention....that 489.9 HP.... It was made using a stock replacement Fel-Pro Head Gasket...

 

The Internet paradigm machine is simply wrong. It's not a list of parts randomly selected to get to your goal.

 

It's realistically assessing your goal and working backwards to see what gets you there in the most efficient manner and not following a list of parts from someone making their living selling those same parts.

 

I swear, some guys are so insistent with what you "need" you would think they are getting a commission on parts sales referrals!

[S30TRBO]

Thanks again Tony for everything as you always shed your realistic light on everything. Yes it was only one dyno session but man did that really hurt my ego and all the work I thought i did correctly. I'm sure it's something in the wiring, the brain has been sent out and has the latest and greatest firmware etc in it. I think it boils down to the harness I made while having the right intentions I could be the cause. 

 

I've had a few people contact me on here after my posting and I told them all what I have invested and I agree it would be foolish and start over. I just wish I had another set of eyes to look at it or get the boys from the north to come and help sort it out... I am so close its not even funny which is the sad part!

[Xnke]

First things first. Make sure your tools are calibrated! I had the same idle symptoms as you did, it was a bad tune. I started over with fueling and ignition timing, and was able to make the idle problems much much better, then it got dark and I got hungry....more work tomarrow evening and I bet I get that dialed in. I fought it for WEEKS before I started back at square 1!

 

I have been chasing an overtemp issue for weeks, only to find out my sensor calibration was bad. Fought timing advance problems, only to find I changed a setting I didn't need to! Cost me a set of coated headers, that bit did.

 

Fired it up tonight after a firmware reflash and scrapping my old tune, idled away in the driveway at 155* for over an hour...my thermostat is a little low. A new one will be installed saturday.

 

Once you sort your electronic issues, the turbo ITB's will be lovely for the track...and with good effort, they'll be perfectly tractable on the street as well.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Xnke

[Tony D]

I've been there!

 

I can't say how many times I've flown in to somewhere...opened up the local instruction manual, and started at Square 1...

Customers don't want to see that. They want the Factory Guy to come in with a glamorous set of tools and diagnose some bizarre malady. The best was a vibration issue at a company in MO... I was there on the machine during overhaul...and now...three years later it was vibrating. Customer diagnosed it...I was there to reassemble.

 

Long story short...they had sent the electric motor out for overhaul when it shorted phase-to-phase and after re installation their fears of compressor damage seemed justified in a high vibration trip that wouldn't go away.

 

Puzzling to me was if I rotated the compressor by hand it was fine...then, sitting over the coupling pushing down on the 48" Pipe Wrench rotating it it came to me: normally I crawl onto the machine from the high speed side (opposite of what I was) and push down... I thought "I'm rotating this backwards!" I did my scroll check, then asked they get the manual, section 5, page 4 (standard standard, standard!)

 

The motor company, despite marking everything for orientation, had reversed end bells of the motor. The customer did the rotation check, reversed leads, then had a vibration problem that just would NOT go away! They even said to me when I got there "it's strange, we an roll it in reverse and it's fine..."

 

One basic check to the manual (which clearly said: "compressor rotation is clockwise viewed from drive end"!) and they would have never torn into a perfectly good machine. Nor had to pay for a field Balance!

 

I flew across the country, assembled the machine, and in 45 minutes and one start diagnosed reversed end bells (improper rotation)...

 

Later compressors had a big cast-in direction of rotation arrow...hmmmm wonder why?

 

Most of the time it comes down to something very basic, but overlooked or dismissed.

 

The head of maintenance sat there, looking at the book....and said "we probably did all this work for nothing then..."

 

Yep! And balanced a field balanced rotor that made it imbalanced and needed another field balance to get it back where it was before you took it all apart!

 

"D'OH!"

 

Don't get discouraged, just step back...and then comeback with a fresh outlook and check it all again. You are right: a second set of eyes s invaluable when looking at this...it was JeffP and a case of Moosehead before he said "Man, your laptop's comm chip has some really funky signals coming out...let's try mine!"

 

Badaboom! Fixed...for about 20 minutes and then my power circuit went DOA! Second box was fine and that box has been in there since!

[z-ya]

Joe,

 

There is nothing wrong with the using the SDS system, or ITBs on a turbo setup. Changing EFI systems at this point will just introduce a new set of problems. It looks to me that you have planned and executed a nice build so far.

 

I would first double check all you electrical connections. Check for continuity for all connections between the ECU and sensors. Look for loose pins and or poor crimps in all connectors. Check for any bare (exposed) connections that may short to adjacent pins and or ground/drain/shield wires.

 

Next I would check all the ECU settings, like injector opening time, and make sure the TPS is calibrated. Also check timing with a light to verify that it is also calibrated.

 

Work on basic drivability first. Idling, basic driving. Once you get it to that point, then bring it to the dyno to push it hard.

 

Over 10 years ago I built my Wolf 3D based turbo build. It took me close to two years and three dyno sessions to get all the kinks out of it. In the end it turned out to be a super reliable an fund to drive build. It still runs as awesome today as it did 8 years ago (many track days and time trials later).

 

It takes time to get all the gremlins out of a build like this. Stay persistent, and don't get discouraged.

 

Pete

 

Edited September 6, 2013 by z-ya

[Tony D]

Oh yeah, and just to BE SURE, I sent all three of my MS boxes to Zya to "get another's set of eyes on the possible cause"!

[S30TRBO]

Thanks Pete.

 

I just emailed SDS since I noticed the site had eliminated many of the **SDS Top Tuners** from the dealer list and experience with my setup for the second set of eyes I need.  They said: "Many shops have gone out of business in the last 5 years. Nobody near you who I could recommend. If you have a wideband, we can help you with specific problems. If you have a hot cam and ITBs and are trying to drive on the street, tuning will not be easy." Awesome!!  

[Tony D]

Welcome to "Tony D's EMS Experience"!

 

It's the same everywhere.

 

Follow the recommended tuning steps scrupulously, by turning off enrichments, tuning the base curves, then adding trims one at a time.

 

Biggest issue I see is guys going to a dyno with a 1/4 tank of fuel and tuning like crazy trying to chase a lean condition that goes away once they add a fresh five gallon can of petrol to the tank.

 

For Christ's sake guys, you just spent $4,000 on an induction system, a full tank of gas is a drop in he bucket at this point! Fill the tank and keep it that way while tuning!

[S30TRBO]

 It's about to go down:  

 

 

More to come.... Selling off Blitz gauges, Plex Wideband, SDS spares etc..

 

 

 

[Dtsnlvrs]

 It's about to go down:  

 

 

More to come.... Selling off Blitz gauges, Plex Wideband, SDS spares etc..

Sexy

[Kirkster]

Well what ever happened?

 

I have mine up and running... All ready to drive the snot out of next year (at least once I get some race seats).

[nzarano]

Tony d you said "Like putting ITB's on a cast-piston N/A Motor with no cam. Terrible parts mismatch." just because i don't know any better and sort of liked this idea for my build, whats wrong with this? I just didnt want the hassle of tripples and something a bit smarter and sexier than su's....

[nzarano]

also where did you mount the tps and the map sensor for the ecu? great build man, really high quality work