Calgary280ZT Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Hey guys. Over and over I hear he experts on this forum say that you need to design a suspension with a clear objective in mind and take into account all the components. Makes sense. I've read the stickies, paid attention to relevant threads, etc....but I have to tell ya, this is one area where I quickly get in over my head. I just don't have the technical expertise to understand the issues and the theory. And next year is my suspension build project. I've set a budget of $5,000. I'm open to doing all or most of the work myself (with some expert help from JimCanuck) or if it fits my budget I'd glady turn it over to a competent shop (especially one that is a supporter of Hybridz). So I'd like to get some input on how to build the suspension, what components you would recommend, etc. Or what shop you would recommend. To start, I drive 30,000 to 50,000 miles/year from Calgary to the USA for work (CA, TX, etc.). So I need a car that is reasonably smooth on the highway. But I also like to drive fast...not uncommon to hit 120 mph driving that lonely stretch of I-15 from Great Falls to the border. The car won't ever be raced at the strip, but I might take in the odd autox just for fun. And I will do a fair amount of driving in the mountains, with all those hair pin turns that I like to take at speed. I was thinking of coil overs because I'd like to run bigger tires at some point without a huge offset. I might have two sets of rims for the rear, big ones for the city, smaller ones (where I can run 225s) for the highway. I plan to upgrade to 16" wheels at some point, hopefully with custom steel wheels. I confess every time I visit ArizonaZ Car's web site I lust after that aluminum billet stuff...control arms, mustache bar, etc. If I could fit that into the budget I would be SO happy. I have some relatively new KYB gas struts, but they can go. I have the Toyo brakes up front and stock drums on the back. Wouldn't mind doing the rear disc swap...but I've also seen some of the experts opine that my set up properly done is fine as is. No strong feels either way on this one. I have an R200 from an 82 turbo car we'll be installing next year. Thanks in advance for your comments...have fun spending my imaginary (but real to me in 2009) budget!! Markham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Markham, next time you're in L.A., pay a visit to John Coffee at Beta Motorsports. he has the suspension bits laying around the office to do your suspension completely, and do the swap while you are in the area. Not to mention properly tune it. He won't B.S. you into buying a lot of junk you don't need, and can give expert guidance toward whatever your goals will be. I know what I've been happy with on the long-distance driver...but that is beside the point. Talk with John and he won't steer you wrong. PM him, matter of fact, I'm sure you will get an educated reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-ManQ45 Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 I personally wouldn't mind hearing what John has to say... I have an '83 ZXT that will be my daily driver... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Mark has an S30 (1977 280z), not an S130. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary280ZT Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 Bo, thanks for pointing out the mistake....after recently editing my book, I discovered the hard way that I am a lousy proofreader. I do indeed own an S30. Tony, I'm hoping John will post on this thread. Not only do I want to get advice, but I thought it would be fun to hear what different guys would do if they had $5,000 to spend on a suspension. Never hurts to hear different points of view. And when I get down to CA in late Sept I am hoping to drop by and visit John's shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardBlack Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 What's your fabbing/welding skills like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary280ZT Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 I last welded in high school more than three decades ago and don't own a welder. JimCanuck is my go to guy on that kind of stuff and he's pretty good. He built his suspension on his 240. So if it came to it, I'm sure the two of us could install/fab/weld on this project...well, he could weld and I could watch...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Well... I think you can have a very nice Grand Touring style suspension setup for a lot less then $5,000. What I would recommend: 1. Tokico HTS shocks - they are a step above the Illuminas in both valving and adjustability. ($700) 2. Shortened struts ($500) 3. Stock rubber isolators on top with ovaled mounting holes in the strut tower. 4. Tokico HP springs from the 280Z (linear 185F/200R) cut to the desired ride height ($168) 5. Modern Motorsports rear LCAs (for the easy adjustability) ($595) 6. Stock front LCAs with relocated inner pivot on crossmember and offset poly bushings. ($50) 7. ST 1" front and 3/4" rear ARBs. ($300) 8. Poly bushings all around except for the TC rod and steering coupler. New rubber for those parts. ($200) 9. New Nissan ball joints and tie rod ends ($300). Parts and some labor: $2,500. That leave the rest for R&R, cleanup, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary280ZT Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 John, that looks like a very nice set up. Would it have plenty of adjustability for alignment? I have a big problem right now. I am wearing out new tires in 7,000 miles. The tires are set at 32psi. A four wheel alignment was done 20k miles ago (mechanic said there was half a degree of negative camber on one rear wheel). All the bushing have been replaced with poly. New ball jts and inner tie rod ends. New shocks. Fronts wear evenly and are in good shape. Backs wear in the middle only. After 7k miles there is maybe 1 or 2/32nds left. Very weird. I'm hoping a new suspension would fix this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Would it have plenty of adjustability for alignment? I don't know about "plenty." Between the offset bushings, adjustable rear LCAs, and ovaled strut tower holes you should have about a 1.5 degree range of adjustment for camber on each corner. Using washers on the forward ends of the TC rod mounting you can get a little bit of caster adjustment. And the MM rear LCAs let you adjust rear toe and tracking. Sounds like the rear tracking, toe, and camber need some work. 32 psi cold on a street driven 280Z might be a little high. I ran 25 psi cold on my street driven 240Z running 225/50-15s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Sounds like you haven't tracked it yet and by now if you haven't yet, you may not in the future. Be realistic in what you want long term. I would run stock length struts to save another buck. I would also do eccentric rear LCA bushings over a fabbed LCA for a street car ( I did). Allot cheaper and you can adjust toe. You can run them in the front too but you are limited on caster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Well... I think you can have a very nice Grand Touring style suspension setup for a lot less then $5,000. What I would recommend: 1. Tokico HTS shocks - they are a step above the Illuminas in both valving and adjustability. ($700) 2. Shortened struts ($500) 3. Stock rubber isolators on top with ovaled mounting holes in the strut tower. 4. Tokico HP springs from the 280Z (linear 185F/200R) cut to the desired ride height ($168) 5. Modern Motorsports rear LCAs (for the easy adjustability) ($595) 6. Stock front LCAs with relocated inner pivot on crossmember and offset poly bushings. ($50) 7. ST 1" front and 3/4" rear ARBs. ($300) 8. Poly bushings all around except for the TC rod and steering coupler. New rubber for those parts. ($200) 9. New Nissan ball joints and tie rod ends ($300). Parts and some labor: $2,500. That leave the rest for R&R, cleanup, etc. John are you recommending that we can cut Tokico springs? Would it be safe to say that we can cut linear springs over progressive? I have Arizona Z car's heavy duty springs.. could I cut a coil or two off in the rear to lower the car *safely*? I have a damn set of coil overs.. I need to install them already lol EDIT > all I had to do was click the search tool on the top to find the answer.. sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary280ZT Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 Prox, you're clearly never going to get around to installing those coil overs. Do yourself a big favour and sell them to me....LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 I'd go with Johnc's suspension package and definately do big brakes all round. Drums at the rear are archaic for what you are doing, that should be a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I have Arizona Z car's heavy duty springs.. could I cut a coil or two off in the rear to lower the car *safely*? I ran cut azc springs for years before going with c/o's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazumi3 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 In addition to the many good comments already said I'd like to recommend a few additions. Body Rigidity. The foundation to overall vehicle dynamics starts with this; Steering, Handling, Ride Comfort, NVH and even Performance feeling from your Powertrain. S30 body is extremely weak especially the rear hatch. This effects all functiional attributes I listed above and even more. Try to stiffen the body and the easiest addition is additional spot welds at all large opening and addition of simple strut bars (stiffness). If you can afford a single hardward that can make a world of difference in steering straight ability, rear stiffness for improved yaw and improved body isolation/ride comfort it would be Arizona Z cars rear aluminum or tubular control arms. They are rigid. The strut bars will improve the upper body and the control arms will stiffen the lower body. Stiffen the body (w/o increasing weight) as much as you are willing to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy85 Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 What John said but not sure why the fabbed rear control arms? I have plenty of adjust ability with just offset bushings. Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 What John said but not sure why the fabbed rear control arms? One of the most important things to get right on a S30 is tracking. The rears need to track the fronts as precisely as possible. Offset rear LCA bushings can get that correct but you need to be able to adjust the front and rear of the LCA, not just the rear as most folks do to get toe correct. Remember, you can have perfect toe but the car might still crab. It really depends on your car. If the chassis is straight then using offset bushings in the rear of the LCA will work fine to get toe correct. If the chassis isn't straight, then you need to adjust the LCAs front side-to-side to get things lined up correctly. The Modern Motorsports LCAs let you do that a whole lot easier then offset bushings. I recommend those parts when I know nothing about the car in question. For all I know the car is a tripod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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