I put on my Lonewolf intake, and 90mm TB

[Tony D]

if it's holding 9psi to 6500 with the controller out of the loop, and then you reinsert the controller into the loop and have a creep issue...

 

My bet is the controller is the issue.

[big-phil]

if it's holding 9psi to 6500 with the controller out of the loop, and then you reinsert the controller into the loop and have a creep issue...

 

My bet is the controller is the issue.

yeah thats what I'm leaning on. I'm going to port the sharp turn out of the manifold some more going to the WG this weekend. If that don't do it I'm going to upgrade to a 44+ mm wastegate. If that wont do it, i'll look to something else. As of now I think its the WG

[big-phil]

Sorry, what WG and BC exactly?

turbonetic evolution 38mm WG

greddy profec b boost controller

[letitsnow]

I switched out my boost controller with Chris with no luck. It just does not make sense? With the top of the WG unhooked and plugged it hold the stock 9lbs to 6500, hook the top line back up, then with the boost controller off for the 9lb setting it creep from 9-15lbs by 6500 rpm? I got a diamond tooth porting tool from Chris and im taking the manifold back off to port the dog poop outta the WG????

 

I really don't think porting the thing more will help if you get creep with the BC hooked up but don't get any creep with the BC unhooked. Something the boost controller is doing is making it creep, what did you change with chris, the box, the solenoid, everything?

 

Got a cheap manual controller to try? I'd do that before I pulled everything apart.

[big-phil]

i switched eveything. I might try putting my 15lb spring in and see if that holds with the BC unhooked. I really don't want to take it all apart again.

[WizardBlack]

turbonetic evolution 38mm WG

greddy profec b boost controller

 

I agree with the others, the WG can't be doing it. If it creeps up to 14 psi, for example, try setting the EBC to 14 and see if it creeps anymore.

Profec B's are pretty darn solid, however. Is it a spec 1 or spec 2? IIRC, the spec 1 (at least) has a balance knob that can mess things up a bit.

[bradyzq]

Try increasing the gain on the profec. You might have to tweak (probably lower) the duty cycle (main boost setting) after you've adjusted the gain.

[jeffp]

Who and WHY did somebody think a 90mm 3.54" throttle body be good for ANY L28 application?

You are almost sized 50% more air flow then you will need to run even 650Hp.

 

TOTAL OVERKILL and waste of time and money.

 

Go with a 62mm TB and call it even you can make 650hp with that and a stock turbo intake manifold.

Lone Wolf for a reason, good engineering would never consider that sizing for an L28 engine.

[Sideways]

Ive read a lot about that and have to wonder. Sorry if youve mentioned this phil but let us know how that 90mm tb works out for you. From what ive read those 90mm tbs are extreme overkill- and the 60mm tb flow in a lot more air than the head can physicaly allow. Id imagine a 90mm tb will let you flow in the maximum amount of air with much less throttle than before (essentialy being at max throttle, before youre even to the floor), and make the throttle control that much more difficult.

 

Looking forward to see how it does for you.

[Tony D]

A non-linear throttle cam will tame a large TB's tip-in response. The only reall application for such a large body is on someone racing with a LOT of flow, who wants to minimize pressure losses.

But even then, take a look at what size TB the Electramotive Turbo Engine used, and you will start to think (like I do) "If they didn't need that big a body, why do I need one that big?"

 

Looks impressive as hell under the hood, though...

 

I put a non-linear cam to actuate my Mikuinis because my wife said it had 'an on-off throttle' and she absolutely hated driving it. For that reason, the car was mine, exclusively... maybe that is what is on Big Phils mind...

[Sideways]

Somehow i dont think he worries much about his wife wanting to drive his car. His daughters though? Ive seen the way those little grease monkies eye his car when theyre giving him a helping hand

[WizardBlack]

Who and WHY did somebody think a 90mm 3.54" throttle body be good for ANY L28 application?

You are almost sized 50% more air flow then you will need to run even 650Hp.

 

TOTAL OVERKILL and waste of time and money.

 

Go with a 62mm TB and call it even you can make 650hp with that and a stock turbo intake manifold.

Lone Wolf for a reason, good engineering would never consider that sizing for an L28 engine.

Perhaps having 3" piping and an even larger plenum leads one to think that tapering down and then back up (right before it should expand to distribute to the cylinders) might be a bad thing? I'm just thinking of fluid dynamics at WOT, etc. Obviously every manifold and IC pipe route is different.

[letitsnow]

Perhaps having 3" piping and an even larger plenum leads one to think that tapering down and then back up (right before it should expand to distribute to the cylinders) might be a bad thing? I'm just thinking of fluid dynamics at WOT, etc. Obviously every manifold and IC pipe route is different.

 

Is 3" piping necessary?

[hoov100]

A non-linear throttle cam will tame a large TB's tip-in response. The only reall application for such a large body is on someone racing with a LOT of flow, who wants to minimize pressure losses.

But even then, take a look at what size TB the Electramotive Turbo Engine used, and you will start to think (like I do) "If they didn't need that big a body, why do I need one that big?"

 

velocity over flow?

[Canadianz]

Just to weigh in, yeah physically a 90 mil throttle body is "over kill" but so are alot of other things we do to our cars. 3 inch exhausts on NA cars for example or some of the gi-normus turbos people put on here too.Why put super wide tires on our Z's when there are members running 235's and pulling 9 second quarter mile times?

 

I'm not saying for a moment that a 90mm is the perfect size for a sub 3 liter 6, however if it works and does the job, its one less thing to worry about. Besides isn't this site about showing off what you build ?

 

As far as drivability, people will talk all day about how horrible the "giant 90mm" TB is to drive, from my experience driving an RB25det that has a 90mm TB and no Idle air all summer daily (this means stop and go commutes in Toronto traffic), I had no issue what so ever. Sure its big and flashy but who really cares at the end of the day.

 

We do alot of silly things to our cars, so instead of focusing on the negatives maybe give a compliment, Phil's car is a damn nice build so comment on something you like.

 

I don't mean this an insult to either TonyD or Jeff, you guys are great and really informative. Alot of what you and a couple other members bring up with the theoretical building is what keeps me interested in the site. I just get tired with the 90mm issue, as it seems so silly compared to some of the bigger nonsensical things people do to their cars.

 

Back on track, hope the boost issue gets sorted, I would also say that switching out the boost controller for a manual would be the easiest test at the moment, start simple.

 

oh and just to annoy everyone

 

 

Chris

[Tony D]

I don't know what the 'velocity over flow' or 'fluid dynamics at WOT' is in the way of a justification. The Electramotive TB was pretty small, definately not 90mm. And they were making what? Lets say 780HP... Arguably they spent WAY more time at WOT than the average street driven Z-Car so I'm thinking I should defer to those guys' engineering analysis on 'velocity over flow' or 'fluid dynamics at WOT'...

 

I'm not saying I have an answer, and I'm not denigrating a 90mm TB. I just ask the question if Electramotive and their engineering brain trust (which is easily more brain power than is in my head) decided on that specific size, I have to wonder other than cosmetics would the larger TB have? Cosmetics is fine, but the real measure is functionality. If it works, then it works. But if you can get by with something smaller and it doesn't affect functionality, smaller isn't inferior.

 

As for the large/small/large comment, an orifice is a good thing to have monitoring flow from non-linear compressor when feeding a receiver or suction bottle of a reciprocating compressor. This has to do with the sensitivity of the centrifugal machine to surge during loading and unloading. At WOT, having the restriction (the TB) makes for a convienient place to use as a guide where to position the unloading (blowoff) valve. It makes the compressor section unload (drop pressure) slightly differently than that part of the compressed air system behind the TB (the plenum). It lets the engine suck down what is in the plenum, and unloads the compressor side of the equation slightly more efficiently. Without that small restriction, the dynamics of the unload through the blowoff is different...

[cygnusx1]

90mm why?

 

Because it's BIG-Phil , not Big-Phil.

 

Is the wastegate creeping closed after becoming fully opened, due to a bad actuator or a leak in a hose?

[WizardBlack]

I don't know what the 'velocity over flow' or 'fluid dynamics at WOT' is in the way of a justification. The Electramotive TB was pretty small, definately not 90mm. And they were making what? Lets say 780HP... Arguably they spent WAY more time at WOT than the average street driven Z-Car so I'm thinking I should defer to those guys' engineering analysis on 'velocity over flow' or 'fluid dynamics at WOT'...

 

I'm not saying I have an answer, and I'm not denigrating a 90mm TB. I just ask the question if Electramotive and their engineering brain trust (which is easily more brain power than is in my head) decided on that specific size, I have to wonder other than cosmetics would the larger TB have? Cosmetics is fine, but the real measure is functionality. If it works, then it works. But if you can get by with something smaller and it doesn't affect functionality, smaller isn't inferior.

 

As for the large/small/large comment, an orifice is a good thing to have monitoring flow from non-linear compressor when feeding a receiver or suction bottle of a reciprocating compressor. This has to do with the sensitivity of the centrifugal machine to surge during loading and unloading. At WOT, having the restriction (the TB) makes for a convienient place to use as a guide where to position the unloading (blowoff) valve. It makes the compressor section unload (drop pressure) slightly differently than that part of the compressed air system behind the TB (the plenum). It lets the engine suck down what is in the plenum, and unloads the compressor side of the equation slightly more efficiently. Without that small restriction, the dynamics of the unload through the blowoff is different...

The ~280 hp VH45DE uses a big throttle. It is a heavily engineered engine with little in the way of "let's just throw it in there" mentality and virtually no bling stuff since it's in a big boat of a car, but they selected a good sized throttle, so there must be something to matching up the throttle to plenum size. If you used something smaller, it would have an even smaller cross section to expand out from as soon as it passed the TB and entered the plenum. Likewise, having a smaller TB would raise velocity; making it even harder for air to make the turns necessary to even flow to all cylinders. I suspect for ideal delivery, you'd want air to enter the plenum at a pretty slow velocity. Gaining more and more power puts the inlet air velocity higher than the plenum is probably designed for. Look at big shot intake manifolds on 2JZ's and RB's. They're typically made for big throttles and they have angle TB flanges and tapered plenums to even things out.

Why 3"? Well, cause I can, for one. Cause I continually build more power and don't want to have to redo it, for two. 2.5" may get the job done, but 3" might make a little less restriction; even at a measly 400~500 whp. It is indeed diminishing returns, but it is still returns at a moderate whp stage. Some of us aren't aiming for 'just enough', either. I personally aim for as much as I can and then I'll dial it down with the throttle. I use TPS-dependent boost targets on standalone-controlled EBC's, too; which is nice.

[Tony D]

"It is a heavily engineered engine with little in the way of "let's just throw it in there" mentality and virtually no bling stuff since it's in a big boat of a car, but they selected a good sized throttle, so there must be something to matching up the throttle to plenum size."

 

Read what I said about the Explorer and Expedition and their Humongo TBs to give the impression of power, when a lighter Mustang with the same size engine and basically the same plenum has a much smaller TB.

 

If you start throwing plenum size in there, you are starting to talk about what I discussed about the 'suction bottle' for the recip compression section of a dual staged compressor section of a Hybrid Compression System where a Centrifugal Compressor Feeds a Reciprocating Compressor.

 

And again, I throw the question out there, which nobody has really answered yet: If Electramotive made 1000Hp out of a non-stroked L28 without a 90mm throttle body...and they have far more engineering brainpower and experience than I...well, from an engineering standpoint, functionally what is the justification given their success? I mean we are almost always talking about these power outputs in cars that are usually lighter than the weight of the car that engine powered, so logic would dictate we are using a smaller TB simply because we don't need the 'impression' of power, since the car is so light anyway.

 

I mean, 1000HP. That's up there. I don't think it's a matter of 'just enough' with that kind of power level!

 

Like I said, I don't know the answer, but I can ask that question. Other than 'looks' or 'because I can' (the second answer of which is a fine justification in my book for just about anything), nobody can give me a concrete reason for using a Throttle Body bigger than what E-Motive used. I'm sure if they got an edge by using a larger body, they would have made one. They made the one they used, so there must have been a logic for them choosing the size they did, at that power level. And they spent a lot of time at WOT, so there has to be 'peak power' reasons as well...

[Tony D]

I mean, right now there is available a 65mm ITB Triple Setup available for N/A L-Engines. Overkill? I'm sure there is some dragstrip application where peak power comes into play for justifying that.

 

But in a Turbocharged application, it gets a bit murky as to what you really 'need' and the high-power car I use for a reference point since it's pretty well documented is the Electramotive 83 ZXT.