Dealers suck.

[johnc]

I guess I'm not supposed to say BEST on this site. What I can say is that I can't think of anything better.

[Pete84]

Don't exclude the E36 BMW chassis. Parts are pretty cheap and its the best chassis/car made in the 1990s. Amazingly capable on the race track.

 

Not to mention they are pretty affordable 2nd hand. Especially when the head gasket goes, got myself a '93 4-door auto for $300. Even if the motor is toast, well, something will be put in there

 

The BMW tool to get the head bolts out is only ~$50, but who knows, it seems to be just a torx bit. Have to try welding and 'adapting' something less expensive first.

[260DET]

Federal taxes, state taxes, local taxes, property taxes, licensing fees, EPA fees, workmans comp insurance, and let's not forget the BIG ONE (drum roll) liability insurance.

 

My guess is that at $110.00 an hour they are making nothing on labor. Any profit at all is probably only in parts mark-up.

 

Don't believe me? Open a business of your own and try to make a profit in this economy.

 

That applies to most Western countries, its a good reason why countries with less regulation can make things cheaper and still get the benefit of being classed as 'developing'. The West is simply regulating its collective self out of business.

[260DET]

I guess I'm not supposed to say BEST on this site. What I can say is that I can't think of anything better.

 

Pffft, the Nissan S chassis in its time is impossible to beat in RWD, unless you up the budget considerably.

 

Traitor

[cygnusx1]

They called me and said it would be a four hour labor charge and that they were going to work on it on Monday. Here we are 40 hours later....no car yet. I should call and say: "I thought you said it was a four hour job?". I should charge them back for my waiting time. $121/hr lol.

[gregkring]

They called me and said it would be a four hour labor charge and that they were going to work on it on Monday. Here we are 40 hours later....no car yet. I should call and say: "I thought you said it was a four hour job?". I should charge them back for my waiting time. $121/hr lol.

 

What are you having to drive around while you wait on them to decide to work on your car? If you have a trusted mechanic it will always be cheaper than a dealership. Dealerships aren't there for being the best priced, they are there for convenience, accuracy, and dependability. The guy actually touching the car is who you need to be worried about, but when that goes wrong you are in better shape at a dealership than a mom and pop two man operation. Personally I work on all my own stuff and don't expect anyone to know how to work on my cars but me.

[jasper]

First and foremost....... It's not the where, it's the who.

I have worked for both dealers, and independants.

The level of ability varies widely. If you were to visit the Toyota dealer where I work, I may work on your car,(30 + yrs experience), or the new lube tech guy may get it(good luck).

There is a MAJOR BENEFIT, especially with today's complex cars, of being FAMILIAR WITH THE PRODUCT. Much diagnostic time is lost/wasted/parts changed, because of this fact, at independant shops. This "EXPERIENCE" can actually save you money, vs an independant.

Do I NEED to mention TSB's,The latest hardware/software, updated parts, factory information and support.

Many times, without a TSB, the best tech in the world, won't be able to fix your car, if he doesn't know(and have access to) the latest software calibration for your car because it doesn't run properly all the time.

Many times, I am personaly amazed at the lenghts the management goes to, in doing the RIGHT THING for the customer (lots of freebies).

You should also know; If the dealer gets a poor CSI score(customer satisfaction index) directly related to customer mailer responses, ALL the management/service writers,etc, will loose their bonuses if the scores are poor. SO DOES THE DEALER PRINCIPLE.

Many dealers don't deserve the poor publicity from years past.

 

And yeah it sounds like you paid a little bit more than I would expect...but is your car prone to rusted/siezed/breaking hardware/ bolts, etc that the dealer knows will likely be a problem on older/high mileage cars like yours.???????

I wouldn't be happy paying that bill.

[zeeboost]

4 hours to bolt on a turbo-back stainless exhaust on my WRX!!! @$120/hour

 

If they did it properly, they quoted you the time out of a labor guide. If that guide says 4 hours to replace exhaust system, that's what they'll quote you. So let's say that this is the 1,000th time the technician replaced that exact same exhaust system, and knows exactly what tools to use, which steps first for the quickest removal, etc, and it only takes him 2 hours. He did his job properly, quoted labor by the book, and that's how a mechanic can make a decent living. If on the other hand, it kicks his ass and takes the mechanic 6/7 hours to replace (lets say some bolts are too rusted and need to be heated to be extracted, or threads retapped, etc.) then you will still only pay 4 hours of labor.

 

Some of you will argue that dealerships overcharge labor hours - if the technician is not being shady and writing down the correct labor hours, then he's not overcharging. The Chilton guides aren't always the most accurate, and they seem to cater more hours towards certain makes. For example, intake gaskets on a 3.0 Ford Escape call for 1.8 or 2.3 hours...something right along those line. Replacing those gaskets on a 3.0 Mazda Tribute, however, call for 5.6 hours, or around that area. They're both the same damn vehicle, with the same drivetrains. Most of the time, those books are pretty conservative, though.

 

Generally when you take your vehicle to a dealership, you expect a quality job. They're the people you go to when you want your repairs done right. That being said, I've seen some crap jobs come in from other dealers, and some absolutely horrendous jobs from independent shops.

 

I need a transmission service and an ABS code pulled on my van. It's hardly a 10 minute job, and the cheapest dealer I've found wants 70$ to do it. Unless anyone in the bay area knows someone with a DRB III scanner...

 

First off, $70 is a pretty decent price for that. I don't know what all is included in that particular transmission service, but assuming it's simply a pan removal and drain the torque converter, yeah, parts + labor that sounds pretty fair. And even better if they're throwing in a code reading. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of dollars on equipment that can read/monitor/program modules, just to give the services away for nothing. If you're having some other work done to it, then a lot of times they'll work with you (say if you're fixing a check engine light, and would like to know what the abs codes are, well, the diagnostic equipment is already hooked up).

[ktm]

I should not bear another's cost. If the mechanic quotes 4 hours and it takes him 6 hours, it is potentially his loss (see below). If the mechanic quotes 4 hours and it takes him 2, I should be charged for only 2 hours. The shop rate is set such that they make money on every hour. It includes overhead and profit.

 

To do otherwise is dishonest. I've fired contractor's who have tried this shenanagin on me.

 

The book is also based on assumptions (i.e., car in good working order, no rusted bolts, etc.). If there are exceptions that are outside of the assumptions, then that is the mechanism with which you pursue additional compensation.

 

I am applying my working knowledge of construction contracts. It would be interesting to know if work orders (which are a contract between you and the shop) do not list such limitations (I know, I should read them better myself).

[cygnusx1]

Let me explain.

 

I brought the car in with a CEL readout I took. Efficiency Catalytic Bank 1. I also told them that there was an exhaust leak that was not visible. I mentioned that the CEL was probably related to the leak.

 

They charged me $100 to investigate. Then they wanted to charge me $1100 to change a section of exhaust between the end of the downpipe to the mid cat, and one O2 sensor. I asked specifically....are you changing a cat? No, just a short section of pipe and a sensor, they said.

 

I had spoken to the service manager and asked if they install aftermarket exhausts prior to ever making the appointment, because I had foreseen this.

 

I told the service writer to hold off because for $1100 I can probably buy an entire stainless exhaust system, including cats. They held the car.

 

I ordered a TurboXS 4" to 3" downpipe, and 3" all the way to the axle with cats. $650 shipped. I re-clarified that it was OK for them to install this for me. I already have a SS axle back to match up to.

 

They called me a day after I dropped off the parts to tell me that labor was going to be 4 hours@$120 + a gasket, and the sensor, which I expected. The $100 diagnostic charge, is used towards the repair bill if they do the job.

 

Again, it's not totally unreasonable. BUT when you are used to working on ALL of your own cars, you forget how pricey labor can be, and it sucks.

 

 

On a side note: When I worked at Honda, there was a carburetor TSB that called for four hours. The mechanics figured out a way around the TSB by drilling a small access hole in the carb. They were pulling off 1/2 hour repairs charging the customer for four, and moving onto the next car on the prior customers dime.

[eec564]

First off, $70 is a pretty decent price for that. I don't know what all is included in that particular transmission service, but assuming it's simply a pan removal and drain the torque converter, yeah, parts + labor that sounds pretty fair. And even better if they're throwing in a code reading. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of dollars on equipment that can read/monitor/program modules, just to give the services away for nothing. If you're having some other work done to it, then a lot of times they'll work with you (say if you're fixing a check engine light, and would like to know what the abs codes are, well, the diagnostic equipment is already hooked up).

 

I already changed the fluid. I need to put the transmission's computer in fast learn mode to have it shift properly with a newly clean valve body, and that requires dealer only computer tools. Same thing with the ABS light, dealer only computer access, even Snap-On readers don't do it.

[JMortensen]

I should not bear another's cost. If the mechanic quotes 4 hours and it takes him 6 hours, it is potentially his loss (see below). If the mechanic quotes 4 hours and it takes him 2, I should be charged for only 2 hours. The shop rate is set such that they make money on every hour. It includes overhead and profit.

 

To do otherwise is dishonest. I've fired contractor's who have tried this shenanagin on me.

 

The book is also based on assumptions (i.e., car in good working order, no rusted bolts, etc.). If there are exceptions that are outside of the assumptions, then that is the mechanism with which you pursue additional compensation.

 

I am applying my working knowledge of construction contracts. It would be interesting to know if work orders (which are a contract between you and the shop) do not list such limitations (I know, I should read them better myself).

That's not how I see it at all. If you're REALLY good and REALLY fast, you make a shitload LESS money per job if one follows your screwed up idea of how it should work. As said before, the rates generally come out of a book, most of the time the shop doesn't set hours for jobs. In the cases where the shop does set a price, it's an agreed price and your argument still falls on it's face. If you don't like the price for the service take the car elsewhere. As a guy who turned wrenches for a living for years I hope you find the slow, mediocre mechanic you're willing to pay for. The good ones deserve better.

[Zmanco]

Perhaps I can suggest a different way to look at the bigger picture here. In general, there are 2 approaches to doing business:

- Single incident

- Relationship-based

 

In single incident transactions, both sides expect to get the best deal for themselves at that moment and don't expect or care if they ever do business again. These tend to be zero-sum deals - each side tries to steer things to their own advantage with no regard for how it affects the other. While we often hear horror stories of how this is abused by the seller, there are plenty of times where the buyer takes advantage as well.

 

In relationship-based transactions, both sides recognize that they expect to do business again in the future, and so the specifics of the particular transaction are viewed in the bigger picture of the relationship. It's no longer a zero sum deal and there can be an openness such that one side might benefit greatly from a small concession from the other. If one side finds that the terms are suddenly much to their favor, they may share some of that benefit with the other side. There is a longer-term perspective at work. If you expect that you'll be seeing and working with the other person again, then you'll treat them more fairly - both the seller and buyer.

 

Car dealers are stereotypically seen as operating in single incident mode. The manufacturers have tried to change this with customer satisfaction scores that affect hold-backs, but that has mostly just made them focused on getting a good score, not on building a relationship.

 

Yet one of the best books on relationship-based business is called "Customer for Life" and was written by the owner of Dallas TX Cadillac dealerships about how he viewed every customer in that context of what that relationship was worth over the customer's lifetime and how he used that to drive how he hired/managed/measured his people. It's a great read for anyone in a service business and really has very little to do with cars.

 

As for how to charge customers for labor hours, I think the over-riding factor is how both sides approach the transaction. If a dealer wants to build a relationship with a new customer, then being fair (not necessarily rolling over) is probably the best approach. However, if they aren't sure if they're even going to be in business next year, then they're more likely to operate in single-transaction mode, which of course almost assures them that they WON'T be around in the future.

 

I've been on the sales side for my most of my professional career and have always operated with a relationship-based perspective. In the short term that has sometimes NOT been to my advantage, but it's how I see the world, and it lets me sleep well at night. I am NOT saying it's always the best approach though - each person has to make their own decision and deal with the tradeoffs.

[ktm]

That's not how I see it at all. If you're REALLY good and REALLY fast, you make a shitload LESS money per job if one follows your screwed up idea of how it should work. As said before, the rates generally come out of a book, most of the time the shop doesn't set hours for jobs. In the cases where the shop does set a price, it's an agreed price and your argument still falls on it's face. If you don't like the price for the service take the car elsewhere. As a guy who turned wrenches for a living for years I hope you find the slow, mediocre mechanic you're willing to pay for. The good ones deserve better.

 

That's not fair. I am more than willing to pay for a good mechanic when needed. However, the book is simply a means of preparing an estimate for the work.

 

You want more money? Raise your shop rates. If you can not make money at your current shop rate, then you fail at business. It is rather simple: Cost + Overhead + Profit = Billing Rate. If your billing rate is such that you lose money for every hour you work on a car, then raise your billing rate.

 

Again, I am approaching this from an engineering consulting and construction perspective. My billing rate is such that my company makes money for every hour I bill. We do not charge our clients for time I do not spend on a project. If I am allocated 10 hours and only work 8, we bill 8 not 10. If we lose money on one job, we do not make it up on another. Our contracts are 99% time and material not to exceed, rarely do I work on a lump sum contract. Most of the construction contracts I've managed were unit price, and the unit price was based on clearly identified assumptions stated by the contractor. If conditions changed, then the contrator was able to issue a change order.

 

It really is not a difficult concept to grasp. I do not mind paying for quality work. It is not about being cheap which you seem to think is my position. It is about fair business practices, regardless of the amount.

 

However, I concede that shop rates may be setup differently and the profit is built into over-estimating the standard hours for a job.

[ktm]

I just realizd that I sound like a hypocrite, complaining about Cygnus' shop rate and then saying that I would pay for a good mechanic.

[Zmanco]

Bo, take a look at my post just above yours. Sometimes people are looking for relationship business, and I'll guess that's how you operate in your professional life (as do I). But sometimes people just want someone to get it done and that's all.

 

Neither approach is right or wrong - but if both parties aren't in agreement, then at least one will be frustrated.

[ktm]

Daniel,

 

You are quite correct in your assumption that I try to foster relationships in my professional life. Without them I am unemployed so to speak. I foster relationships with regulators, contractors, clients, and other consultants. I view every job, every contract, every contact as more than simply a one-time job.

 

I read your post and it raises many salient points. I want the good mechanics to earn a living as they deserve it. Many good mechanics in independent shops earn their reputation through good work and fair business practices. People do not like to be taken for a ride and unfortunately this seems to be the case whenever poor mechanics are involved (you raise this point as well - one-time job).

 

Again, maybe the man-hour estimates as provided by the book stem from historical complaints raised by both the customer and the mechanic and this was deemed the fairest way to address these complaints.

[JMortensen]

That's not fair. I am more than willing to pay for a good mechanic when needed. However, the book is simply a means of preparing an estimate for the work.

Correct. The book is a means of preparing an estimate, by assigning a VALUE (not a time) for the labor involved in the job.

 

You want more money? Raise your shop rates. If you can not make money at your current shop rate, then you fail at business. It is rather simple: Cost + Overhead + Profit = Billing Rate. If your billing rate is such that you lose money for every hour you work on a car, then raise your billing rate.

There really isn't too much difference here, except if the average customer walks into a shop and they have a sign on the wall that says the hourly labor charge is $150 they're more likely to turn around and leave than if it says $75/hr.

 

Again, I am approaching this from an engineering consulting and construction perspective. My billing rate is such that my company makes money for every hour I bill. We do not charge our clients for time I do not spend on a project. If I am allocated 10 hours and only work 8, we bill 8 not 10. If we lose money on one job, we do not make it up on another. Our contracts are 99% time and material not to exceed, rarely do I work on a lump sum contract. Most of the construction contracts I've managed were unit price, and the unit price was based on clearly identified assumptions stated by the contractor. If conditions changed, then the contrator was able to issue a change order.

 

So the better and faster you are at your job, the LESS money you make. I think your billing structure is retarded. You SHOULD get paid more for your knowledge, your skill, and you should recoup the money that you've put into buying tools that get the job done faster.

 

It really is not a difficult concept to grasp. I do not mind paying for quality work. It is not about being cheap which you seem to think is my position. It is about fair business practices, regardless of the amount.

 

You're right, it isn't a difficult concept. A job is worth X. When the job is completed, you should get paid X for that job. "Billable hours" does NOT equal actual hours. It equals the VALUE of the labor, not the actual time required to do that labor. Here is a construction example: I just tiled my shower and it took forever because it was the first time I had ever tiled anything and I was running my business while doing the tilework. According to your pricing schedule I got a high value tile job because it took many hours, but the truth is that the value of the job didn't change, but it took me longer than it should have to complete the job because I didn't know WTF I was doing, I was distracted, had to keep stepping away from it, etc.

 

However, I concede that shop rates may be setup differently and the profit is built into over-estimating the standard hours for a job.

 

Profit is NOT built in by over-estimating the hours for the job. Profit is gained by outperforming the estimate, usually this happens through years of experience and tens of thousands of dollars invested in tools which help to get the job done faster. The fact that someone can outperform the estimate should not be to their detriment, and the fact that they make "make a profit off of you" should not be something you begrudge them. Businesses, workers, industries require profit to stay alive. So long as we seek their goods and services, profit is not a bad thing, in fact it is essential. We should all be GLAD to pay for good work and happy that we are keeping skilled people profitable so that they can continue to provide valuable services to the community.

[ktm]

Correct. The book is a means of preparing an estimate, by assigning a VALUE (not a time) for the labor involved in the job.

 

Ok, in my world that is a lump sum contract and I have operated under such agreements myself. You are 100% correct in that the money is made is trying to get the work done right and faster than the estimate. If that is how shops setup their rates, I am fine with that. I now have a better understanding about how the estimates are prepared.

 

The problem was the disconnect between estimated labor (i.e, 4 hours to do an exhaust) and the actual estimate for the work ($480). I wrongly assumed that the agreement was setup as a time and material contract when in fact it is more of a lump sum arrangement.

 

Again, as Daniel rightly pointed out, as long as both parties are aware of the terms when entering an agreement, no one can fault the other.

 

I fully support your statement that we should compensate those with marketable skills. We need competent skilled labor.

[jasper]

Not to belittle Dave.

But he brought his own eggs to the diner..(smart move, makes sense to me, better parts choice.)..

There was no parts profit in the deal..or minimal.

The first thing people hear is the dollar amount. If they feel the amount is reasonable, they don't complain. The hours are irrelevant.

THE MAJOR ISSUE is the dollar amount, and inflation causes it to keep rising,along with every thing else. Everyone remembers when it used to cost less.....

All repair shops are selling their TIME. It doesn't take longer than it used to to complete the job. It just costs more because of inflation.

It's sticker shock.

Lawyers get about $300.00 an hour +++. Your "A" technician is lucky these days to see $25.00 a flat rate hour. Don't forget, that 4 hours includes everything! Finding the car in the lot, setting it up on the lift, making the repairs, clearing the computor codes, cleaning up the mess ,throwing out the garbage,writing the repair order,road test and quality check. COME BACKS ARE VERY UNPLEASANT FOR A TECHNICIAN.

And he also lost the 1 hour diagnostic fee. That cuts repair time down to 3 hours.

Beleive me......you wouldn't want his/my job...........1 other thing, I have invested $70,000.00 + in tools to repair autos, and still spending, and I DON'T OWN the buisiness.

How much do you spend out of your pocket to be able to perform your job to best of your ability???

Edited February 3, 2010 by jasper
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