Dealers suck.

[sweetleaf]

Not to belittle Dave.

But he brought his own eggs to the diner..(smart move, makes sense to me, better parts choice.)..

There was no parts profit in the deal..or minimal.

The first thing people hear is the dollar amount. If they feel the amount is reasonable, they don't complain. The hours are irrelevant.

THE MAJOR ISSUE is the dollar amount, and inflation causes it to keep rising,along with every thing else. Everyone remembers when it used to cost less.....

All repair shops are selling their TIME. It doesn't take longer than it used to to complete the job. It just costs more because of inflation.

It's sticker shock.

Lawyers get about $300.00 an hour +++. Your "A" technician is lucky these days to see $25.00 a flat rate hour. Don't forget, that 4 hours includes everything! Finding the car in the lot, setting it up on the lift, making the repairs, clearing the computor codes, cleaning up the mess ,throwing out the garbage,writing the repair order,road test and quality check. COME BACKS ARE VERY UNPLEASANT FOR A TECHNICIAN.

And he also lost the 1 hour diagnostic fee. That cuts repair time down to 3 hours.

Beleive me......you wouldn't want his/my job...........1 other thing, I have invested $70,000.00 + in tools to repair autos, and still spending, and I DON'T OWN the buisiness.

How much do you spend out of your pocket to be able to perform your job to best of your ability???

 

Working as a Tech myself, this is pretty much exactly what I was going to write. I completely agree. Sometimes I do a 4 hour job in 1/2 hour and make great money but other times it's a 1/2 hour job and takes 4 hours and I loose my ass. Seems like shops are raising prices and paying techs less. Techs used to see close to 50% of the labor rate. Nowadays your lucky if your seeing 20-30%. And like Jasper metioned. There's a huge tool investment . I'm well over 100K myself. Like mentioned earlyer . You only get R&R time for the most point but theres lots of time involved in testing, cleanup, racking, writing , etc etc...

[jc052685]

However, the book is simply a means of preparing an estimate for the work.

 

This is 100% crap.

 

Mechanic - school/education 25-50 thousand dollars + 50-100 thousand dollars in tools and diagnostic equipment. YEARS of experiance!

 

You come in, need a new timing belt on your car. Book calls for 3.5hrs. Mechanic as the specialty tools and the experiance with this job to complete the task in 2hrs. You, the customer WILL be charged what the book calls for, 3.5hrs. A mechanic should not be PUNISHED just because he has spent the money for the tool and has the experiance required that makes him/her an exceptional Tech.

 

The book is an estimate of the time an adequate tech with a good supply of tools should be able to complete the task.

 

Other wise you would be taking your car to the shop. Then they say "sure its 4 hours of labor". THen when you come to get it they say "Wow, that thing was a tough one, looks like you owe us 6hrs because we are no good at our job and dont have the right tools for the job. Thanks for helping us to buy some for the next time your car comes in".

 

If you are a good tech working at a busy shop thenyou should be able to pull 10-12hrs in a 9hr work day. That is how every shop I have ever heard of works.

[cygnusx1]

I suppose I should start selling car repair insurance for items outside, warranty, or outside of the warranty for the warranty. We already have insurance to cover our insurance. Geez. I agree, ultimately, the man at the wrench gets the hose too. It has become a crazy world. Can I sue myself yet?

[Slow_Old_Car]

Gotta agree with everyone else... in a auto shop book hours and estimate hours are the rule of measure.

 

The personal one that chaps my ass since i'm in the buisness is when i hear customers saying "oh well this place said they can do it for $xx/hr and it will take about __ hr's"

 

Sounds fair, unless you know that it's a tactic used to undercut the competition, then they make excuses on the back end about how a part was out of stock and a more pricey unit was supplemented, how the job took longer and more hours were billed, basically they adjust the end bill.

 

Do buisness in one town long enough and you learn who does that, and while you can tell your client, there pentiant for believing that thats the case and you not just trying to save a sale is very slim. Thus you lose at least the 1st round to a shady shop.

 

Only defense i've found is to do callbacks on a regular interval and follow up on the other shops work vs. estimated bill. 75% of the time they have been hit with hidden or additional billing on the back half and i convert that customer.

 

I see no problem with how the book hour system works, or how fast and good techs can make a decent living being equipped and intelligent. I have the biggest problem with the ethics of my competitors. But i'm probally not the only one with a complaint like that.

[ktm]

Now I know..

 

 

Thanks all

[Tony D]

Thats nothing... the last sheet metal repair I did (replaced rear bulkhead and horozontal stabilizer attach fitting) took 30 hours at 85.00 an hour- and don't forget an 850.00 service kit. Be glad you own a car and not an airplane.

 

The startup bill for my time in Morocco was (Euros) 133,000...

 

We bill at a daily rate, or in four hour blocks thereof. If I come to look at your compressor, you're on the hook for the day no matter what, because you pay for my time to come to you and go back home. I think the daily rate was (Euros) 2300 daily - roughly (E)287 an hour. In the USA, the rate is variable depending on what I'm working on, and is slightly less.

 

And you guys are complaining about a couple of hours in a shop...

[cygnusx1]

Oh I fully expect my quoted four hour exhaust installation to well exceed their initial quote. They shoot themselves. When I go to buy my next car....I'll take my business to a different shady dealer.

 

Possible excuses:

-Gasket out of stock so we had to fabricate one out of titanium with scissors.

-32.5% of the bolts were unusable so we had to make new ones from scratch.

-The TurboXS exhaust system was 5/32" too long so we had to custom stretch the car.

-Did you know that there was a dead raccoon stuck behind the muffler, it took animal control an extra 2 hours to peel it off, and we had to wait for the coroner?

-We found an exhaust valve in the turbocharger, have you visited the showroom?

-The box that the exhaust came in contained hazardous packing material so we have to charge you $100 for it's disposal. It's standard policy.

 

 

Oh did I tell you about the time I brought the car in to the original dealer, for a leaking fuel rail...one of 10,000+ cars with leaking fuel rails that "was not a safety issue" I had to pay out of pocket for a TSB repair. I had them change the trans and diff oils while it as there. When I picked it up, the service writer reached under his desk, as if to grab a bottle of whiskey, and pulled up a ziplock of black oil and gear parts. he proceeded to tell me that the gear parts came from my transmission. I laughed at him and said "well what did you take them out for?' "Next time I come here you can put them back in." I was well aware of the scam. The car had about 100K miles on it and he wanted to put me in a new STi. No way that oil was from my trans. I know what trans oil looks/smells like buddy. I think I was right. I have 150K now with no tranny problems.

 

BTW, 4 years later and the NHTSA is forcing Subaru to give me my money back for the fuel leak repair! Getting that letter in the mail made my week! I bitched to the NHTSA since 2004 about that one. VICTORY is sweet.

 

Google this:

WRX cold weather fuel leak

 

 

Tony, I did my fair share of industrial contracting during my 8 year stint as a Project Engineer for a major corp. Millions of dollars a day. Dealing with corporations, it just seems to flow under the bridge like water. Sometimes these large corporations (dealers) forget that they are dealing with private sector people that have kids, mortgages, and can barely afford minimum payments. Nah, they dont forget, it's not even a spark of a thought. If anything, it's a joke.

[jasper]

If I'm not mistaken, written estimates are only allowed to vary by 10%, by law. Your state may vary. Most states have a "bill of rights" they are required to post where you can read it. Most times, in a small claims court, the burden of proof is upon the the dealer to document you were properly given an estimate. Your SIGNATURE on the repair order is a paramount piece of proof .

Don't let them take advantage of you!!!

[cygnusx1]

Don't worry, change orders are the killers. I gave them plenty of ammo to shoot me with. They quoted, I stopped their work, I purchased parts outside of their shop, they called me with a fuzzy verbal requote. It's so open now that they can drive the bank truck through it. It's partially my fault for opening the door.

[JMortensen]

Oh did I tell you about the time I brought the car in to the original dealer, for a leaking fuel rail...one of 10,000+ cars with leaking fuel rails that "was not a safety issue" I had to pay out of pocket for a TSB repair. I had them change the trans and diff oils while it as there. When I picked it up, the service writer reached under his desk, as if to grab a bottle of whiskey, and pulled up a ziplock of black oil and gear parts. he proceeded to tell me that the gear parts came from my transmission. I laughed at him and said "well what did you take them out for?' "Next time I come here you can put them back in." I was well aware of the scam. The car had about 100K miles on it and he wanted to put me in a new STi. No way that oil was from my trans. I know what trans oil looks/smells like buddy. I think I was right. I have 150K now with no tranny problems.

 

That sucks. In my defense of the way hours are billed I didn't mean to insinuate that every dealership and service writer and mechanic is on the up and up. That's obviously not the case. My Subaru dealer is very straightforward and professional, as is the GMC dealer I use.

 

Here is my horror story: Once when looking to trade in a car at a Nissan dealer the service manager asked for my keys and registration in order to give the car a quick once over. Soon afterward they started in with the "how much can you afford a month" BS. I had walked in with a print out of the KBB trade in value for the car. I gave it to the salesman, he showed it to the sales manager and they literally drew a line through the trade in value and wrote in a new value about $5k lower underneath it with a sharpie. At this point I told them I there was no way in hell I was going to buy the car. They literally would not give me my keys back until I started yelling in the showroom and threatened to call the police. I doubt that place is under the same ownership as this was 10 years ago, but this was the Nissan dealer in Oxnard, CA.

 

BTW, 4 years later and the NHTSA is forcing Subaru to give me my money back for the fuel leak repair! Getting that letter in the mail made my week! I bitched to the NHTSA since 2004 about that one. VICTORY is sweet.

Nice to win one.

[cygnusx1]

hehe don't get me started on trade ins.... My strategy is to never mention a trade in, chew the new car price down as much as you can. Then agree on the sale at the price. Then ask for a value on a possible trade-in. We did that with my wife's Legacy to buy the Odyssey.

 

After I got the van down to what I knew was rock bottom, I brought up the Legacy for possible trade. They had no wiggle room so they offered an insulting $1800 for a 5 year old Legacy with 60K miles. I walked out acting pissed and insulted at the offer. I listed the car on ebay and got an easy $7,000. Then I called the guy a few weeks later and said I am now ready to buy that van you quoted me $xxx for.

 

As far as I am concerned, a trade-in mentioned up front is another tool the salesman can use to obfuscate the deal.

[gregkring]

.....................

Yet one of the best books on relationship-based business is called "Customer for Life" and was written by the owner of Dallas TX Cadillac dealerships about how he viewed every customer in that context of what that relationship was worth over the customer's lifetime and how he used that to drive how he hired/managed/measured his people. It's a great read for anyone in a service business and really has very little to do with cars.

---------------------------------------

 

 

Carl Sewell is the author. I currrently work for Sewell Infiniti and have worked at a Sewell dealership for the past 10 years. He sets a great example and environment for us to work in. We hold ourselves to a very high standard and level of service to make sure our customers get every dollars worth. In this day and age of untrusting individuals it is nice to have places you trust, even if they are not the cheapest. Along the same line as supporting your local speed shops and specialty companies versus buying everything as cheap as possible on Ebay.

 

As far as the flag rate charges the saying goes "Don't punish me for being good". Think of it as getting the job done for the same price in half the time!

[Tony D]

The general rule of thumb going into business is that you will have to charge 300% over what you pay your people to provide for overhead, decent sustainable profit, and business reinvestment.

 

This is the rule we went for when we started CSSI, and now 8 years later the two guys running it are still following that model and doing quite well.

 

If you think you have a mortgage and responsibilities, remember that the people providing the SERVICE you asked to get have the same responsibilities---along with one FAR more heavy than anything a customer is likely to understand: They have to charge enough to STAY IN BUSINESS because if they fail, every single employee is out the door and up the creek.

 

If you want a guy making $5 an hour working on your car for no benefits in a shack behind his house (with the guy running the service writing roundup charging you $15 an hour to keep up with their overhead) then do so...

 

But remember that quality rarely comes cheap. Most of the independents that are any good at all will charge as much as dealers (if not more so) because they know the market, and they know any customer screwed by the dealer will likely be happy as a pig in poop to have the same rate charged but have the problem FIXED on the first visit.

 

The advantage independents have is that they have lower overhead, so the profit sustains them better. It was the case at CSSI. It's the case at most independents.

 

Don't begrudge a competent man a decent living. An incompetent guy you can rail on about with good justification. But if they are competent and did a workmanlike job, to complain about the price charged when you are unwilling or unable to do it yourself is just bad form.

[cygnusx1]

So $1100 to replace a short section of easily accessible straight pipe and one oxygen sensor is reasonable. OK even if it is, what about all the shenanigans they pull. That's not bad form is it? Oh let me just assume they are all honest, hardworking, apple pie eating, humanitarians. Some yes. in my experience, not all of them. When I saw the bag of oil with metal in it, should I have bought a new car from them or had them change my tranny?

 

I am the first person to pay for a job well done without complaint. When I can see jerking around, I throw a flag. These guys are digging for gold. This is NY. Don't trust anyone. Dog eat dog out here. Don't pick up the soap.

[JoeinCA]

Mag58 mentioned the SBC brake system on the newer benzes...

 

Yeah you dont really need the computer to do the brakes.

Unplug the SBC control module, and then change the pads, but do not crack the brake lines. At the dealership, (the one i worked for at least, not a great place), there were not enough computers to go around... so to wait for one to become available meant not being able to pay the tool guys that week.

 

Some say it's dangerous. But when you have to work under certain conditions imposed upon you by your employer... I just always made sure the module was unplugged, and the keys were in my tool box.

 

I don't believe that the flat rate system should even exist anymore. Sure, charge the customer based on book time. Pay your techs for the hours they work, and pay them overtime, and pay the good ones more. Flat rate causes more problems than it could ever solve, and it is unnecessary if you have well managed, well paid, well educated, and honest employees. Do you really want people racing through repairs on your brake systems, because they have to?

 

Joe

[Tony D]

I fail to see how anything I stated justifies anything unscrupulous. 'Excessive Labor Rates' are in the eye of the beholder.

 

The key phrase about any of this is 'service that you are paying for because you are unwilling or unable to do yourself'...

 

Nobody forces you at gunpoint (in the civilian world) to go anywhere to do anything, or to prevent you from having the car flat-bedded to another facility. You don't like the estimate, nobody says you have to get the work done there. Usually people who are cheap just want to cry to lever a lower price than do comparison shopping---like they deserve to have the service they want performed at the price they dictate, financial realities of the service provider notwithstanding. "Because you are the closest to me, I demand you not only be the best, but the cheapest as well!"

 

Complaining about the raping you get because of the two stated conditions is also bad form.

 

Nothing I said endorsed immoral business practices---if you don't like the state in which you exist quit whining about how terrible it is: change it (by whatever means necessary).

[cygnusx1]

OK then I should change the title to "I chose a sucky dealer" to fix my car. Better? Almost two weeks have gone by now and still NO CAR! There is a legal term called "reasonable". Have you heard?

[jasper]

Exactly how long have they had your car, AND all the correct parts supplied by you???

[cygnusx1]

Dropped it off on Monday the 25th of Jan. Dropped of the correct parts last Friday morning. I wanted the car back while I waited for the parts to come but they had it partially dismantled already. I told them they need to order the turbo gasket and they waited until this Tuesday to order it. They made me wait for the gasket and now...

 

"The tech is busy working on another car with a CEL problem he will get to your car next."

 

Hey look, obviously I am willing to pay for the work. I just expect reasonably prompt, and correct work, placing more emphasis on the latter. Most guys think I am nuts for paying dealer prices but I trust they have the tools to do it right. My thought was that if they are charging $1100 to add a new section of pipe to old cats that have 150k miles on them...I might as well have them install the entire system ($650) + 4 hours, in SS with new cats. No? Did I piss them off? I am very polite and clarified everything with them. I guess they sense I am not the typical consumer and it throws them a little. They would rather deal with a blank face holding a credit card.

 

I also don't use dealers often, thank god, so I don't have the experience to judge one from the next. I also guess they don't have the experience in dealing with knowledgeable consumers.

[jasper]

You are RIGHT on many counts.

Some times I listen to the advisors talking with the customers. If your not careful, the b*llsh*t coming out their mouths will make your ears bleed. There is no doubt you know considerably more than your service advisor. Most "fall" into that job. One of our advisors used to be a car jockey!!

I have this same problem most every time I make a purchase. I know more about the product I want to buy, than the salesman trying to sell it to me!!!

Good luck

 

GET ALL YOUR OLD PARTS BACK!!!! THOSE CATS ARE WORTH GOOD MONEY!!!