seattlejester's 1971 240Z

[rossman]

Morbias is correct, the white is a POWER wire not a ground wire. The sparks were a dead giveaway. A ground wire wouldn't spark like that, unless it is wired incorrectly. Also, it looks you you put that rear ground wire on top of paint. To get a proper ground, you should clean a spot down to bare metal around the bolt hole, apply dielectric grease, then screw the lug down tight. The lug should also be clean metal.

[seattlejester]

It is a white with a red stripe, and that makes sense that it is a power wire, but where does it go? It has a ring end so it has to be screwed in somewhere, but I can't make it out in the FSM where it's suppose to go.

I mean it is that wire right?

 

Thanks for the observation, I'll have to go back and apply dielectric grease on the grounds.

Edited July 1, 2012 by seattlejester

[rossman]

Probably the fuse box.

[seattlejester]

But the fuse box is fully occupied, and the screws that hold the fuse box doesn't have any open terminals.

[rossman]

Ammeter?

[NewZed]

 

Tapped it to the body and sparks started shooting everywhere from where it was touching. So I unhooked the battery, then proceeded to ground it first before attaching power.

 

Connected the power and was greeted with a large puff of smoke as the wire from the starter that feeds the rest of the wiring harness turns red hot and melts. Thinking it was due to an old corroded wire, I retry with two fresh 16 gauge wires wrapped together (make one large thick wire) with all the nuts and such bolted down. And I was greeted with an even larger plume of smoke.

 

Took off the battery cable, and removed the white ground wire in the cabin like it was the first time, and the blinkers work, and the starter cranks.

 

Now what's going on? From what I understand of the wiring harness, white is for power? What am I doing wrong? I'm bloody confused...

 

From what I understand, the wire from the starter is getting bloody hot, indicating that there is a feed back somewhere in that section when the white wire is grounded. When the white wire is not, there's no feedback? I really am lost for the moment and kind of freaking out.

 

You should study up a little bit (a lot) on your car's electrical system. You're missing a basic understanding of the system. No offense, but it shows, for example, wires melted due to "feedback". Wires melted because you shorted the battery directly to ground. Twice, and on purpose.

 

If you don't have a multimeter, you should get one (after some reading). Anyone with a meter would have checked that white wire for battery voltage when they saw the sparks, probably before they tapped it to ground. You can test everything before connecting, to save yourself the burned wires. Now that you've burned some wires, you should use a meter to see if any of the neighboring wires have had had their insulation burned off and are now shorted to other wires or to ground.

 

Plus there are some questions about why your fusible links didn't blow instead of burning the wiring. yours might be missing, shorted or replaced with the wrong wire.

 

Good luck. Don't mess with it until you have a meter and know a little more, or find a friend that does. Cars have burned to the ground due to wiring mistakes.

Edited July 1, 2012 by NewZed

[seattlejester]

I will concede it has been a while since I've wired anything or took any of electrochemical cell classes. I am testing the wiring harness in an attempt to prevent a future meltdown with fuel and an interior in the car.

 

In my defense once again, the last thing I wired was a polarity switching motor for folding side view mirrors so both positive and negatives sparked. I do have a multimeter but I am used to small circuit boards this much amperage is fairly new to me sans some headlights and fog light installs..

 

But I do recognize your concern and will be more careful and a more through review of my concepts before I tackle it again.

 

And I believe the ammeter suggestion may be on the right track will report after a trial.

[Miles]

Newzed is right. You are going to melt your electical system unless you get a schematic and a multi meter and take a more methodical approach.

 

Do a search on HybridZ for electrical schematics. Several members have posted pdf schematics you can download. The pdf files allow you to enlarge the schematic to see the details.

 

 

I answered your other post after reviewing a schematic in a 240Z Haynes manual for the white and red wires you were asking about. It only took a minute with a schematic.

 

I suggest that you get an electrical schematic and go through it and identify every wire in your car as for color and function. Make a list and number tag each wire per your list. Doing this will enable you to know your electrical system and how it functions. Also, make a wire list and tag the wires any time you remove electrical components. Take detailed pictures before removing or modifying the electrical system. You will thank yourself later when you have to assemble something six months from now and/or you have to trouble shoot your electrical system when your Z breaks down.

[seattlejester]

Alright then, you guys will get the full splurge.

Main question I want answered, where does that ring terminal go (pictured below)?

Info:

Battery outputting 12.3 volts.

When the terminal in question touches metal it sparks, wire is hot (active) putting out 12.3 volts as well.

Based off of diagram:

Possibilities are as follows.

Comb Sw (Combination switch, stalk off of steering column)

Ignition (Connects directly to starter)

Fusebox (pretty self explanatory)

Ammeter (ammeter fuel combo gauge)

R. Comb L. L.H (LH Rear tail light, also connected to RH tail light)

 

So pictures/results.

Took out the ammeter in good hopes that the terminal would be unplugged.

No luck, both the white wire and white wire with red stripe are feeding into it.

 

Then checked the fuse box.

Already has a white/red wire feeding into it. The white/red wire in question is branching from this same wire.

 

Ignition and combo switch are both being fed by white/red wires.

Starter motor cranks so ignition is getting power via this wire to ignition. Combination switch on the other hand is not getting power. No headlights, side markers, LR turn signals.

 

When stepping on the brakes, taillights illuminate.

 

This points towards the combination switch or fuse box not receiving power from the ring terminal, since the fuse box has it's own separate power source another white/red wire with a male connector this points towards the ring terminal supplying power to the combination switch/dash lights. Now the dash is fully mounted, thus it makes it really difficult to find out where the ring terminal goes. I know it should be powering the combination switch as the ring terminal grounded is putting out 12.3 volts and that's exactly what the stalk needs.

 

If someone could be so kind and to point out where this terminal goes. It would be much appreciated.

[seattlejester]

Alright, I'm an idiot. Ring terminal goes to the bottom of the fuse box to the little bolt held underneath.

Actually did find my fuse box and had installed it with the "new" fusebox sitting on the dash. After running back and forth a bunch of times, referring to the FSM, then finally referring to the diagrams as recommended, noticed the fuse box actually had 2 WR wires going into it. Upon furious googleing I found a few pictures with the wiring harness showing one a few wires other than the pigtails running through the center portion. Flipped over the fusebox sitting on my dash, low and behold, a screw on the bottom to power the fuse box.

Put it on, connected battery, no drama, turned the headlight stalk and was greeted with some extra light.

The driver turn signal and both driver and passenger side markers light up when the combo switch is on, and all brake likes turn on. Unfortunately the headlights still don't power on and the blinker isn't blinking. Will be tracing those back, but main issue solved.

I appreciate all those who commented, and I do appreciate the concern that Miles and NewZed have expressed and will be taking them to heart. Really did need a bit of a push to remember how to ride the electrical wiring bicycle.

The smoke from the first failure was indeed the fusible link blowing, which on a 240z is actually just a wire, not it's own module like in later 260 and 280z, which is why it took a while for me to recognize the error and end up repeating it with my splice.

Edited January 9, 2014 by seattlejester

[Miles]

Good to see things are working out.

 

 

 

Be sure to replace the fusible link. It did what it was designed to do. That is, to protect the electrical system from catching fire and/or melting. And it is not just a wire. The fusible link is made from material that melts without burning.

 

 

Datsun 240Z fusible links are available from MSA, Black Dragon and some autoparts stores.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Miles

[seattlejester]

I'm actually looking to just replace it with a more modern fuse. Amperage suggestion? Atlantic is recommending 50, guy at parts store recommended 40.

 

So the rear end is perfect, all the lights come on when they are suppose to and work as they are supposed to.

 

The front blinkers are a bit finicky, driver side works all the time, passenger works 50% of the time. The combo switches are looking pretty dirty so I may be removing it to clean it up a little.

For some reason the passenger signal light display on the tach stays on when the headlights are on, but the lamp itself turns off O.o.

Edit: Turnsignal lamp harness actually had a bad ground, this caused the circuit to go and borrow the ground from the hazard relay. Quick removal and soldering of new ground on the bulb holder and the blinkers work marvelously.

 

Headlight harnesses are reading a voltage difference of ~11.6 volts, but don't want to turn on for some reason. The front engine bay loom is putting out 12 volts, and the headlight harness works when wired directly to battery, but not when plugged into harness even when jumpered directly.

 

And the fuses labeled Column and the one above it labeled Domelamp in the fuse box keep burning out. Putting the ring terminal on the fuse box have given me front side markers, the ammeter, and dash lights, but it seems like it blows out those 2 fuses. Tracing the two fuses is proving to be quite an exercise as it seems to connect to absolutely everything.

 

So I believe I have the horn wired correctly, with the green wire going to the horn, the green and red going to the battery, and the green and black wire going to the switch, the problem is that the horn stays on the moment the battery is connected. I even took off my steering wheel and pulled the horn switch to no avail. Will be checking that tomorrow, either the relay has fused itself, or the horn boss is installed incorrectly (unlikely, 1 wire...).

 

And for those of you who were wondering:

 

Difference, the shrink wrap for the screws is slightly bigger with one of the mirrors, and one of the mirrors came wrapped in bubble wrap.

Edited July 3, 2012 by seattlejester

[seattlejester]

Pretty much getting used to the wiring aspect of things now.

 

As mentioned above the horn didn't work. It would just remain on. Since it was past 11pm, I decided to stop playing with the horn.

Tackled it again today, found that when you pulled the little copper contact it would stop. So the green black wire was grounding before it reached the horn switch.

 

Pulled off the hub to find.

The little boss at the bottom had cracked and was allowing the switch contact to ground before actually heading through the switch.

Put a layer of electrical tape then melted it in place with the soldering iron.

 

Then looked at how the switch grounded to the chassis. Ideally the little spring piece would be pushing up against the hub adapter to complete the circuit to the ground, but it really didn't seem like it wanted to sound.

So I soldered on a wire to the lock nut for the steering wheel then attached it to the little spring bit.

After some consideration I decided it would be better to have the connection detachable.

 

Now I have the comical horn. Will be replacing with a hella unit when time/funding allows.

 

Last real bit to address...the headlights.

Wish me luck!

 

Edit: completely stumped on headlights. The headlights themselves don't turn on, but when one turns on the high beam the voltage read above of about 11-12volts is going through. But the moment any drain is placed on the system (like placing a light bulb and completing the circuit), it promptly goes to 0. So for some reason the wiring harness isn't supplying steady current.

Edited July 4, 2012 by seattlejester

[seattlejester]

So when I tried to fix the switch below it disintegrated on me (probably the cause for a few headlight failures).

So I hard wired the headlight (RW I believe) and wired it to the ground (black wire). Unfortunately this didn't do anything.

 

So I kept tracing and went through the right hand combination switch. Took it apart and got to the rocker assembly.

Three things caught my eye.

1. The contact patch was blackened.

2. The brass rocker wasn't sitting straight.

3. The spring loaded nubbin was sitting at different heights with respect to each rocker.

 

So I grabbed a set of pliers and squeezed the holding points to flatten them out and expand them.

Cut little bits of wires and stuffed them into the cap to raise the heights of the nubbin.

And used a blade to clean away a bit of the blackened patch.

 

Put it back together, and low and behold, headlights . Now off to do the headlight relay mod.

Big thanks to classiczcar community for pointing me in the right direction.

 

Now I can put on the weatherstrip and doors, and focus on the engine!

Edited July 6, 2012 by seattlejester

[Devil_S30]

Looks like things are coming along nicely, and a lot better than mine lol

[OmakZ]

Oh, combo switches. Have fun with that

[Miles]

You can get the headlight relay kit from MSA. It is made by a HybridZ member HLS30-08077 (Dave Erwin). It will brighten your headlights and reduce the load on the headlight switch. Also, the relay harness will allow you to run higher wattage H4 lights etc.

 

MSA link: http://www.thezstore...ZS/PROD/12-4651

 

For the headlight/turn signal switch, you should buy a couple of combination switches because you will find that that they have to be repaired/cleaned frequently. Research HybridZ and Classic Z Car for "how to repair combination switches". There are several good posts that tell you how to repair the switches. Dave, who designed the headlight relay kit, also provides a combo switch repair service. Search for switch repair here and Classic Z Car. I bought my relay kit from him several years ago. The kit is plug and play so you do not have to chop up your wiring harness.

 

 

I bought some extra combo switches, repaired them (clean and adjust copper contacts) and use them to trouble shoot light problems and replace failed switches.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Miles

[Pharaohabq]

yeah, the Combo switch.. Always fun. I've often wondered why they do what the did with it. but then I think oh, made as cheap as possible. Those connectore should run through larger relays like in modern cars. but that would take a bit of setting up. If they were, they could use more reliable switches inside, and would pull less current through the stalk hopefully preventing failures like that.

 

I'm glad you got the lights sorted. Oh, as for your fusable link, you want to use the minimum operable size link as you can, likely 35-40 amp. That's good electrical sense. The minimum amount will allow the fuse to burn before any of the surrounding wires. Replacing with block modern fuses is a good idea, and has been documented on here.

 

***EDIT***: Hehe Dave above just posted what I was talking about with the combo switch. nice job!

Edited July 6, 2012 by Pharaohabq

[seattlejester]

Well if the combo switch goes, I think I'll try adapting one from another car. Now that I've started crawling over the wiring wall I was skeptical about, the worlds my oyster as they say.

(Above my favorite wiring tool, my friend bought me when I did his tail lights, after having spent a good decade with pliers, and automatic stripper is a god send)

So since I destroyed the high beam selector switch, I bought a replacement to toggle between. If I really felt like it I could have added a momentary button switch in the stock location for flashing, but the toggle serves just as much function.

Fabbed up a little switch mount to go along with it. Unfortunately the little plastic switch I bought was a little dodgy, as even the slightest jiggle would interrupt the circuit.

So I bought an all metal one and painted it black. The switch is actually dust black so the flash is just picking up the difference, in the car you really don't notice.

 

And I think I will be doing the relay upgrade, one HID on my daily died, and I have to constantly check that the halogen replacement is on, as it pales in comparison. From all the wiring diagrams I think I can accomplish it for much less than the 158$, actually I have all the parts and I'm sitting at around 30$.

 

In regards to wiring, I only have a few tidbits to address, and none of those will need to be addressed until the motor is more along it's way.

Figure out the resistance needed to get the fuel level gauge to take readings from my fuel cell.

Find 12 volt source for electric fuel pump.

Make relay to power E-fan (super easy, I think it will actually come with the kit I'll be buying).

 

Motor Progress:

Pulled the head off of my 79 zx L28E.

The PO had mentioned it had smoked blue, indicating burning oil, pointing towards fried piston rings.

Took off the head to find that the head gasket had also blown internally so that may explain a bit of the situation.

Block itself looks to be a bit worn as it is devoid of any cross hatching. Minimum deglazing, most likely a slight bore up will be in order, this will be left to the shop who takes it to decide.

 

Currently contemplating head decisions.

From what I understand, the only real mod to bring the E31 head up to speed is to replace the valve seats with steel instead of the bronze seats. That looks to be ~150$ if I bring in the bare head, that combined with a 3 angle valve, and a thorough cleaning is going to put me at about 400$ conservatively. Datsun LLC offers a rebuilt E88 head for 450 shipped. I really won't know if the head will be salvageable until I remove the E31 from the L24 to assess damage.

[seattlejester]

Decided I'd try my hat at a write up.

Don't be an idiot, disconnect the power, be aware of your surroundings and make good solid connections.

If you ruin your car by not being careful well, not much I can do for ya.

Do at your own risk!

 

With that out of the way.

 

First I used this really helpful diagram from atlanticz.ca

Essentially you are cutting all the wires that see current related to the headlights and adding a relay to take off the load that the headlights place on the wiring.

 

So first things first, identify the wires in question. The location you decide to mount the relay is really up to the end user, it can be right after the fusebox or all the way right up next to the headlights like myself or anywhere you would like. I decided I would use my now empty voltage regulator spot to eventually mount my relays.

 

So start pulling back the tape, I used a pair of wire cutters to get me started.

As indicated, note the two yellow coverings, the yellow tape at these points are covering the spot at which this wire splits to go to each headlight. These two wires are the signal wires for the low and high beam headlights.

Of the 4 red wires of similar thickness (the thinner red one goes to the fog lights, the red wire with blue stripe goes to the engine bay light) note how they have different markings. 1 Red, 1 Red/white, 1 Red/black, 1 Red/yellow. From the previous observation, you know the red/white wire and the red/black wire are the wires for the high beam and the low beam.

 

That means the two remaining wires (red and red/yellow) are the power wire, one for each headlight.

Since the relay only requires a single signal, it is redundant to have dual signals, thus pick one of these wires to ignore/eliminate.

If you trace back to the fuse box.

These two fuses in the upper right are for each individual headlamp.

Tracing the wires in the back leads one to find the top fuse correlates to the red/yellow wire, while the second to top fuse correlates to the red wire.

 

After deciding which wire you want to use (red or red/yellow), cut all of the 4 mentioned wires.

 

Then proceed to add clips to slide into the relay to the wires coming from the front.

The red and red yellow wire coming from the front of the vehicle (from the lamps) are now the grounding wires and as such, need to be grounded in a good location.

 

The wires coming from the rear also need the clips added.

In addition, you have to split the signal power wire to feed both the high and low relays.

 

Finally make a power wire using a fairly thick gauge wire (10 gauge) to be run directly from the battery to directly power the headlights. This wire needs to be split to feed both relays. It is highly recommended to add fuses before the relays to protect them.

 

Connect all these to the appropriate slots according to the wiring diagram above, and voila you have headlights on relays.

 

 

TL:DR

Cliff Notes:

Peel back tape roughly where the engine bay inspection light feeds to.

Locate the two yellow taped splits, the relays can be added anywhere behind this point (closer to firewall).

Identify the 4 Red wires (red/thick, red/black/thin, red/white/thick, red/yellow/thick, ignore the red/thin and red/blue/thin)

Cut the 4 wires above.

Ground the red and red/yellow wire from the front of the vehicle, and choose one wire from the firewall side of the red or red/yellow to use as your signal power and split that wire into two and add clips.

Add clips to all the other wires (2 in the front for red/black and red/white, 2 in rear for red/black and red/white)

Make a power wire and split it, add two inline fuses of 30amps and add clips to the ends.

Plug in according to diagram in first picture.

Enjoy!

 

Note: I put captions on some of the pictures. Please let me know if they don't show up.

Edited July 10, 2012 by seattlejester