I'm torn again, I've gone gun crazy

[Doc Hawk]

Thanks Tony. That was one of the comments that left me scratching my head and thinking the OP needs to read less and shoot (in a legal, controlled environment) more.

[josh817]

45 ACP Round was designed to knock down drug-crazed Muslim Rebels in the Moro Rebellion in the Philippines. The 45 Long Colt would penetrate clean through and they would still dead run and wreak havoc in the line.

 

They make Hydra-Shock Ammo nowadays...a .380 in an old AMT Wallet Holster works just fine. So would a new Airweight, with the following caveat:

 

Revolver more reliable? That's contradictory of field tests done by the military...

 

"Doesn't Leave Witnesses?" Anybody involved in the line of work that is concerned about that knows a locked breech Ruger Bull Barrel doesn't either, and you only need one behind the ear to do that job.

 

Seriously, what does leaving expended brass on the ground have to do with any LEGITIMATE use of a firearm. Not to be too strong here, but that is a very ignorant statement to make...period.

Lol Tony I told you the corner workers are screwy! These were the points about a revolver that the one dude this past week told me when I argued. Next time you see the guy in all whites, go around and see the type of characters. Cool dudes, but like I said once you get talking they speak "words of wisdom" in their minds. In fact the one hippy dude from 3 weeks ago explained to me how to properly use a condom. I didn't even ask. He too was from California.

Edited November 18, 2010 by josh817

[stprasinz]

Your the first one to mention anything about murder. The mere mention of guns on this forum doesn't necessarily mean that someone wants to kill anyone.

 

But I will make a somewhat political statement, if someone's charging full out at you and you know they intend to kill you, how will taking out your cell phone and dialing 911 help you?

 

The original poster said "leaves no witnesses", sorry I took it for what he said... But he also said, "It should only take one or two shots to get someone down", which would indicate it is a person. So they said it in code... Boy I couldn't figure out what they said.... So you couldn't understand what he was claiming..

 

"Below 9mm +P, there are some legitimate concerns that the round won't penetrate into vitals through winter clothing, but above that all penetration and expansion is really enough to penetrate and disrupt vitals." Yeah still not seeing anything about it....

 

Now after all that being said.... "Not old enough to carry but soon.". So the person in question is under? 18, or 21?

 

The way he put it was you can shoot the person, and good luck finding 12 people to all agree that I'm guilty, or you could be dead.

So obviously the intent is fully aimed at a person, and if your shootin at someone I doubt its hey stop pow pow....... And I'm SO SORRY I mispelled one word...

[sticky280zx]

hah just saw this thread....you dont need to carry. Its really that simple, get a shotgun for the house and let the cops carry. But you dont need to.

[JMortensen]

hah just saw this thread....you dont need to carry. Its really that simple, get a shotgun for the house and let the cops carry. But you dont need to.

That's a discussion that can quickly turn political, and he didn't ask whether or not anyone thinks that he needs to carry. There are plenty of arguments for both sides, but they all aren't allowed here because Hybrid Z doesn't allow political discussions anymore.

[sticky280zx]

Well Let me further make points as to my statement in a very NON political statement.

 

Reasons why i said that...

 

First his questions scream "i want to carry a gun" which like most things, when people reallllly want to do something they will whether or not its safe, they understand the point of doing so, the responsibility, etc etc

 

Second i wouldnt trust his thought process/decision making ability at all. Heres a few listed point...

1. He isnt old enough to carry or apply for a chl

2. He mentioned pulling a gun on someone unloaded

3. He mentioned taking someone down, etc

4. He cant hit the broad side of a barn as stated earlier with a horrible spread

 

He obviously doesnt know much of anything about the laws here in Texas, hence the questions, isnt old enough to take the class to legally carry (so he shouldnt even be worried about what gun to carry)

 

Theres alot more i could say but i will sum it up with...im 22, have a level head, a chl, guns, and HARDLY ever carry on my person. Damn skippy i have the gun in my car, and a few at my house, but carrying a gun on you where you could pull it out/someone could see it are two totally different things.

 

He obviously has made many stupid comments in this thread like "my girlfriend cant even take out the trash without guys whistling" lol first, then YOU take out the trash Mr. Man, second wth does that have to do with carrying a gun....you gonna shoot someone for whistling?

 

I would just see him going to jail for a while, which might be a good thing as far as having time alone to think, he wouldnt ever be able to carry again legally, and he would learn that level-headed thing out and why everyone and their dog doesnt carry guns. But i would feel bad for whomever he shot or killed because of his mistake.

 

There are just alot of things to think about when it comes to even getting a chl, much less carrying on a daily basis, not to mention laws, legallity, etc...which i will be waiting for a response and will answer/share more reasons accordingly.

[JMortensen]

If he is underage, then I agree. The whistling at the girlfriend and leaving witnesses stuff had me scratching my head too, but I figured he was trying to be funny.

 

I ASSumed you were going to take it in a different direction. Sorry about that.

[BRAAP]

Legit thread here guys with several mature level headed adult responses and advice, no need to sensationalize, tear apart specifics, or add nonsensical advice. Jon is only trying to help keep this thread on track, please do not go out of your way to stir the pot.

[sticky280zx]

Haha braap im not trying to stir, and after rereading it i see where he was going with his thought/interpretation of what i said. Its not a political thing, its just i think Josh need to leave the gun carrying to someone else (hence saying cops since they do it for a living), and not worry about any of this because he isnt old enough, doesnt know what he is talking about, and doesnt have any real time/skill with shooting a gun (obviously).

 

Sorry Jon for not making myself clear in the first place.

 

but there are alot of other things people have said in this thread that isnt correct/applies to tx carry laws that needs to be cleared up, but i was going to wait for a response.

 

Like the fact that you cannot carry a gun on you or even have one in your car if you are on certain property like his school campus (UTA) which was brought up earlier and not correct. They made that law here in tx after all of the school shootings etc, not to mention the fact that anywhere where there is a sticker saying it is not allowed...you cannot carry there either, permit or not. Like bars, churches, private business', etc

Edited November 19, 2010 by sticky280zx

[hoov100]

For practical self defense use, a 9mm or .45 in the 1911 style will be more the accurate and have more then enough stopping power. The issue you have with ammo capacity is not that you see yourself shooting more then a couple rounds, is the possibility of actually having to use a full clip. I have had the unfortunate opportunity of being in that situation a couple times and trust me, you are not going to have enough time to line them up in your sights and usually they are not going to be exposed. Take both guns and see which one you can get a smaller grouping with at 25 yards.

[BRAAP]

Haha braap im not trying to stir, and after rereading it i see where he was going with his thought/interpretation of what i said. Its not a political thing, its just i think Josh need to leave the gun carrying to someone else (hence saying cops since they do it for a living), and not worry about any of this because he isnt old enough, doesnt know what he is talking about, and doesnt have any real time/skill with shooting a gun (obviously).

 

It's all good.

[BLOZ UP]

It has to be a 30.06 sign for it to mean anything...

[capt_furious]

Lots of disparaging comments about Californians in this thread.

 

Stick it.

 

calguns.net <- Read it, and change your tune. Don't throw out the many for the actions of the few.

 

There's nothing wrong with a revolver - if you're worried about your assailant being able to tell whether or not your weapon is loaded, don't. It's a moot point, you should never point an firearm at another human being with the intent to merely threaten. You do not pull it unless you're going to use it, and at that point, it had better be loaded and you'd better be prepared to fire...if your assailant suddenly stands down when you draw your weapon, good, but you should never be counting on this.

 

In the end, caliber, size, action, etc is a not a question of damage to the target, but effect upon the shooter; you should be able to accurately place shots in vital areas quickly. Shot placement matters far more than wound channel. You can be just as deadly with a .22LR as you can a S&W 500 if you have steady nerves, a steady hand, and a sharp aim. Make your weapon selection based upon what you are comfortable shooting. Accuracy, ergonomics, ease of use and a myriad of other factors that affect the shooter, not the target, are what makes a firearm a good choice.

 

I like my Colt Lawman MKIII, but my Hi-Standard Model B is much easier to shoot. They are completely opposite ends of the firearm spectrum. In a SHTF situation, I grudginly admit that the HS-B would likely be a more useful firearm.

[josh817]

The girlfriend thing I said with basically meaning I would like to speak up and say hey cut it out but not if I'm worried about the consequences. Obviously I'm not going to be like "would you mind yourself" to a bunch of thugs over here. Call me a wimp or whatever but as Ron White said "I don't know how many of them it would have taken to get me down, but I know how many they were going to use". The best thing to do now is just walk on and ignore it. Once I know I have someone or something backing me up, then I would speak up and say stop. You could argue "well they wouldn't do anything anyway" but I don't know that, for all I know they could jump me and in that case like I said, I would be ready. The same applies for the times it happens to me. Please, lets not discuss whether a verbal argument is good enough reason to pull the trigger, that's not what I'm saying but I anticipate someone making that statement. That's really just one tiny part of the big picture, it's not my main reason nor my only reason so don't even go there telling me if its valid or not. I'm not here to ask for valid reasons to carry a weapon.

 

To clear things up, in the first post, all those aspects about the guns, were arguments from the corner worker I was with. If it wasn't for him I'd just make the decision to go with a 1911 and maybe regret it. Thus the reason why I made this. Obviously I can't make a decent argument even if I thought it through for a full week because I don't have experience with anything other than rifles.

 

Sticky, cool your jets hot shot, I could be like you and have my license but choose to not always use it, and I probably will. All that aside, indeed I am clueless, I know! Why else would I be asking? We don't need to be getting to critical here, there is plenty of time to make a decision, a full year! The argument of "he can't aim, he doesn't know the law, and he's not old enough" is out! I said, I'm not carrying until I get a CHL and even then, I don't have anything to carry.... AND EVEN THEN when I do have something to carry (if it's within this year) I will be taking it to the range to have some fun and practice so I can do a good job in the CHL school/classes thing. "He doesn't know the law" well damn Sticky, will I not learn it during that class they make you take? Will I not learn self defense 101 what I can and cannot do in the course?

 

Lets not get all puckered up over the CHL thing. Sticky, you said you owned guns, ideas for good compact carry weapons, etc? Hoov, I can see it being a scary situation. I frequently ask myself that question. Nerves frayed, trying to reload if you even carry an extra load with you, would be tough. I definitely now see where getting in there and hands on comes into play. I'll have to look into my fathers 1911 to see if the ergonomics are any different than a typical GI 1911. If it's similar then I'll need to swoon him into letting me use it at the range next time I go.

 

 

 

 

Seriously, I hope people actually read this post. It appears everyone is so eager to speak their mind after reading the first couple of posts rather than the entire thing.

Edited November 19, 2010 by josh817

[sticky280zx]

The girlfriend thing I said with basically meaning I would like to speak up and say hey cut it out but not if I'm worried about the consequences.

 

Learn how to fight strong man,if there is more than one, again use common sense. I will say i have been at many a bars and someone hit on my wife/mother of my child, if they are alone i will by all means explain to them to step off and shove it, but if there is a group...we just walk away. Its just common sense, i wont say anything to a 6'5 250-300# guy when im only 5 10 and 140-150 But i can fight/defend myself and have no problem dealing with avg 5'9-6'2 200# and under guys

 

Please, lets not discuss whether a verbal argument is good enough reason to pull the trigger, that's not what I'm saying but I anticipate someone making that statement.

 

Again you need to go over the laws because there are VERY FEW situations where you are "allowed" or have a good enough reason to pull the trigger, guy beating the living schnikeees out of you with his hands...not good enough, 4 guys attacking you, yes but what if you only down 2, you think the other two wont try and get your gun and shoot you with it then run? Again alot of common sense/decision making on the fly comes into play. Local guy here is in jail for 17 years (plea agreement)...was walking his dog in apt complex around 2am with his gun on him (he DID NOT have a chl,if he did it wouldnt have mattered) but a girl was crying because "her bf kicked her out of their apt" he said just leave the guy then, bf overheard and proceeded to start kicking his ass, guy shot bf in the stomach, called the cops right away, bf dies in ambulance, guy goes to jail for a murder. Just something to think about, deadly force was not allowed to be used and that again is part of the territory and the "rules" is why 98% of the time i dont carry my gun on my person, but i do have it closeby in my vehicle (partly because of the castle doctrine which is another subject)

 

I don't have experience with anything other than rifles.

 

go to a range and try out some handguns

 

"He doesn't know the law" well damn Sticky, will I not learn it during that class they make you take? Will I not learn self defense 101 what I can and cannot do in the course?

 

again go to the range, No you will not learn everything, they will go over some simple outlines, some previous court cases, and maybe some situations....the class is up to the instructor and that is like anything else, it all depends on what THEY want to tell/teach you, some teachers are better than others

 

Lets not get all puckered up over the CHL thing. Sticky, you said you owned guns, ideas for good compact carry weapons, etc? Hoov, I can see it being a scary situation. I frequently ask myself that question. Nerves frayed, trying to reload if you even carry an extra load with you, would be tough. I definitely now see where getting in there and hands on comes into play. I'll have to look into my fathers 1911 to see if the ergonomics are any different than a typical GI 1911. If it's similar then I'll need to swoon him into letting me use it at the range next time I go.

 

 

But the only way to carry in texas is a chl...so why shouldnt we be "puckered" up about it? I for one am not going to advise you on what are "good" guns to carry, it varies with every person. Some like full size, compacts, different grips, makes, thin, fat, etc... Guns are like chicks, theres all kinds, shapes, sizes, weights, some are top heavy, some fit in your hand, some dont, you just have to try em all and figure out what you like.

 

I tried to be fair when editing just because i dont want to post it all but seriously do these few things

 

1. Range, you need to shoot, they carry alot of guns you can "borrow" for the day so you can find out what you like

2. Keep your mind open on the guns, and buy what you perform best with (dont worry about brand, model, capacity, etc

3. Take the class nomatter what, it will give you a law booklet, help you with real life situations, etc

4. Learn the laws (you and your gf), whether you get a chl, or just use home defense, you need to know what the can do's and cannot do's are and when force is applicable and how much

 

 

Lastly comes my opinion, self defense/hand to hand is the best place to spend your time along with common sense like not popping off when you should keep your mouth shut. Guns will not help you 98% of the time because you cannot use it even if you have it, hell even showing it can get you in trouble (if said person backs down, then runs to the cops and says you pulled it on them).

[Tony D]

Sage advice from a friend who was listed on the legislation calling for California's "Three Strikes" Law:

 

1) Aim low and if it walks up and he dies, you can say you were aiming low.

2) Once they're down, stop shooting! Three in the torso is justifiable, but the last two in the forehead standing over him...That's 5 to 7 Hard Time!

 

Honest to gawd truth!

 

Last thing I had to carry was a short barrelled AK47 after insurgents attacked the loading Jetty and killed one of our MPOLs... Anybody with prior military training was issued one and was required to sling arms daily on the way to work, at work, and back to the compound. We slept with them in our quarters while at the compound.

 

Curiously, not a single Frenchman was issued one, it was all Americans, Brits, and Filipinos! (I leave the obvious political comment there...)

 

What was that about knockdown power again? For me, I felt a LOT safer with that AK on my back than before when only the MPOLs had them! I don't think I would have had the same feeling of security if I only had a 9mm, 45ACP, or even a 50AE!

 

Then again the last time I felt the 'need' to carry was during the Rodney Riots and I had to go into the Curfew Area to retrieve compressor casings. In that instance, I brought an M1 Carbine with a 90 round jungle-style triple banana-clip and a bandolier of another 240 rounds in 15 round clips... When the LA Sheriff stopped me it was an interesting discussion.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Tony D

[josh817]

Honest truth here I've never been in a fight in my life. Once again, I wouldn't know any grappling moves or anything. Something to learn, I know, however the whole making a comment thing and speaking up. What I was getting at is I say hey stop, and the guy gets up in my face, that sort of thing until it eventually gets violent. The type of people I'm talking about, don't have a problem being true one on one. It's not any certain races, age, gender, its just how they come off around here. The way I view it and I'm probably way wrong, but in this area, I'm the one receiving looks at you like you're the reason why such and such went wrong in their lives. To me, if anything were to happen, we would be lucky if anyone did anything about it. By the time police arrive, well you know, things happen quickly.

 

Now I'm probably very wrong, there are probably a lot of good souls around to save my sorry ass in the event that I eat asphalt. I get these opinions by the total carelessness of the way people go about doing their business. Total disregard for well... everything. From the looks of things I strongly doubt anyone steps in. Maybe the two or three people I helped move stuff into their apartments, do a good deed thing. I could see it being like a high school fight where you just let the two "work it out". I know my thoughts are based on illegitimate support but the fact is that I'm highly judgmental and this is how I see things. If I'm wrong great, if I'm not I'd hate to find out.

 

To me and to many others what it comes down to is self defense. I know the difference between me saying "hey **** licker you're and idiot", subsequently making the person mad and getting beaten compared to saying "why don't you give the girl some respect" and getting ganged up on. Now you may be saying learn some hand to hand combat. Yah, I could, however if something is coming at me I could just as well place my hand behind my back motioning I'm carrying and announce to the world "make me feel like my life is in danger" (something along those lines that doesn't provoke). Don't even draw a weapon and have the thought of what COULD happen run through the persons head. Then IF/WHEN I get taken to court for using too much force, as the one corner worker told me, good luck having 12 people all agree that I blatantly wounded or killed someone just cause I thought it was Grand Theft Auto or that I wanted to pick a fight.

 

I didn't rattle off any sort of situation where I might simply motion that I have something until now. All other times you rush in, woa woa woa pump your brakes Josh don't shoot people. Quite frankly you don't know when I would use a weapon, you only know that I can't shoot a steady group (can you blame me after 8 shots?), that I would like to purchase a gun that would be good for carrying, and that I'm not in college to be a lawyer therefore I as of right now I don't know all the rules. I'd like to say one more thing that if you ever find yourself in a genuine defend your life situation, if it were me I wouldn't thumb through all the laws in my head within that split second, I would defend myself even if I had to break a law. And then once again, like the corner worker told me, good luck getting accused and if you are then fine send me to jail because it would be better than dead.

 

I'm just getting sick of some of you being like YOU DON'T NEED A CHL THINK ABOUT IT. I'm not some boy wonder playing video games thinking sex, drugs, and violence is the coolest thing in the world and watch Saving Private Ryan ten times over so I can see some poor dudes guts hang out while he cries out for his mom. I don't need to get the whole "this isn't a game" lecture.

 

 

With all that pent up rage out now, would you like to offer up some gun ideas so I don't have to rent out the whole shop? I'm planning on going to "The Shooters Club" in Fort Worth. Perhaps you know the place since you're from the DFW area, they have some very appealing rates.

 

 

EDIT:

LOL Tony I was going to ask you if you ever felt safer/the need to carry since you work abroad. I remember you posting something a while ago along the lines that you got mugged or whatever? I could see feeling insecure in a foreign country on business. Curious about your thoughts on it. Surprised they let you carry such big guns around. I would have thought policies and laws would complicate things so much to where you feel like its not even worth the time carrying.

 

The head shot thing showed up I a few years ago I think here in Texas when some SEAL guy got a burglar in the head. All sorts of viewers voice opinions were interesting to listen to. Ranging from "that's was terrible" "wrong" "inhumane" to "good shot".

 

My dad did the same thing with his M1. LOL A long time ago when we lived out in the country he had it behind the seat ready to go with the banana mag. He sold the truck and when the guy folded the seat down it was like awkward moment... large gun... the dudes eyes bugged out That doesn't come with the truck, sorry!

Edited November 19, 2010 by josh817

[Tony D]

Walking away cures a lot of the Texas Attitude...and sadly that's what I see here. Hypermasculinized puff-chested attitude rampant more and more these days (and sadly to me, prevalent more in Texas than other places from my observations.) Wear your masculinity on your sleeve. It takes a bigger man to walk away knowing he's right than to stand toe-to-toe with some moron and 'prove' it...

 

I didn't get mugged. I got strong-arm extorted under color of authority. When a guy wears a police uniform, and has a gun, there is little you do but go along.

 

Could I have gotten out of it? Yep, in hindsight and knowing now that likely he was NOT a police official I had my chance and could have used it. But it was $400 that I shouldn't have had on me in the first place. If I didn't have it, would I have been shot? Maybe. But that's not how it worked out now was it?

 

As for 'big guns' for all the talk people have about anarchy and how you don't need cops blah blah blah...they have never experienced it firsthand. Doubtless many of them wouldn't survive the first round of eliminations when it came down to it. It would be a very un-nice place to be... Big guns work where law is not, and I'm not so stupid as to decline the chance for personal defense when presented with it. When they have AK's and you don't you loose. When they have AK's and you have an AK, at least I know I can give what I get and chances are I'm a better shot under pressure.

 

The biggest tragedy is the death of someone from lack of the ability to shoot back.

 

Words are words. It's not a gun.

 

Blood is f-ing slippery and when it starts flowing it's not a nice place to be. Anybody looking forward to it is a fool.

[Tony D]

And by 'looking forward to it' I mean not taking an about-face and walking away.

 

Yeah, you're going to let the idiots whistle. They will look at you. They will beat their chest and bare their teeth.

 

Best thing to do is walk away. And if you aren't smart enough to leave the environment through some entitlement mentality that says you deserve to be there despite obvious bad elements present...you are looking for it.

 

And that makes you a fool.

[kiwi303]

Honest truth here I've never been in a fight in my life. Once again, I wouldn't know any grappling moves or anything.

 

Grapple? F**K THAT! grappling some street scum is a recipe for a knife in the gut if he thinks you are winning. Put em down Hard, Fast and Any way you can. Knee to the balls, elbow to the temple, thumb in the eye, maltese kiss, hit the solar plexis as hard as you can, stamp on the instep... don't grapple, Fight. It's not a school sports team wrestling match, it's a fight.

 

Fighting is something a mature adult doesn't want to do and avoids by any means practical, walk away and ignore *******, but if you MUST fight, do it to win. Forget "Fair" just remember "Survival".