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Mikelly

Looking for a few good candidates (And their money)

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Mikelly    115

Matt Isbell and I are in discussions about going to Aerodyn2 for a day in their tunnel.  We're looking for a few other candidate cars/owners.  This is not a donations event gang, as there is likelihood that some of the information would not be shared with the community (all of Matt's data should be assumed proprietary since he is competing).

 

I'll be reaching out to members here, but if you know of a WILD ride that should be in the tunnel, then have them contact me offline.

 

Mike

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cobramatt    20

Im in.

 

I dont want everyone to think that my data is so highly classified. We, MTI Racing, have been working for some time to produce a winning car and lots of time, effort and my hard earned has gotten us there. My car is special but not that special. Anyone who was part of the group would have the opportunity to learn from each others cars and we as a whole could improve our set up. I know that between myself, Mike, Marc and a few others this would be money well spent. 

 

 

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cobramatt    20

Mike........Did you see the new CF end plates I made for the wing. I had a go with the neon yellow vinyl wrap stuff as well. I think it looks good. I got my motivation from the Audi R8 Grand Am car I was racing at RA. I really cant wait to put this in the tunnel and get some data. My mind is already thinking of a few variations of setup I want to see the numbers on. Great idea.........

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Mikelly    115

John Tedder, John Hines, Mark Icard, Tom Barnett, Thom Harris and Austin H.  Participated in the last test.  All of you guys did such a great job, and I would accept any assistance working with the cars will be running through the tunnel.  I want to stress that we'll be funding this out of our own pockets this time, so anyone wanting to run a car through, as we get more firm details and dates, I'll let everyone know the cost breakdown on the time in the tunnel.

 

I have about 6-8 simple tests I'd like to conduct on my car.  Only one would require removing the car from the tunnel.  I'll start working on a plan for my car specifically, and Matt I. if you can send me a list offline of the items you want to test, we'll start building out a plan.

 

Mike

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Tony D    143

Mike / Matt

Has thought been given to testing the original G-Nose Undertray?

I have recently found a shop in Japan replicating this part true to original including oil drain holes, etc.

 

I don't know the timeframe of this second round of tests, but my plan was to get a couple of these for myself, Burton Brown, and Andy Flagg as they are "stock parts" and can be used in our competition.

 

The original Cd reductions quoted in the original S130 book included this Undertray.

 

PM me if there is interest in getting one for testing and I'll see what I can do about pushing my schedule in Japan to go get them. The shipping is prohibitive, but oversize luggage on a 1K Flyer Benefit makes multiples (3 or 4) a possibility when there on business travel anyway.

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roger280zx    15

Looking forward to the data.  Matt, the car is looking good.  I think the last time I saw it it still had the little spoiler and no side skirts.  I'd love to hear about the benefits of the new parts.  Will donate some dollars to the cause.  Not much else I can do unless you're also testing s130 stuff :P

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gnosez    4

Matt - since I just this evening completed the black pinstripping of our 240Z BSR clone race car here are my thoughts:

 

1) the original cars were painted black and the 1/8-inch relief was taped over between the three colors

 

2) even with vinyl pinstripping the difference really makes the BSR paint scheme standout

 

3) the numbers are a royal PITA to do

 

4) doing it on a lift would have helped

 

5) I am not looking to do it again anytime soon

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cobramatt    20

Matt - since I just this evening completed the black pinstripping of our 240Z BSR clone race car here are my thoughts:

 

1) the original cars were painted black and the 1/8-inch relief was taped over between the three colors

 

2) even with vinyl pinstripping the difference really makes the BSR paint scheme standout

 

3) the numbers are a royal PITA to do

 

4) doing it on a lift would have helped

 

5) I am not looking to do it again anytime soon

I'd love to see the pictures. Could you give me thie link to your thread. I'm sure it looks fabulous. My car does not have the pinstripe. At 160mph you cant even notice............

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Mikelly    115

Sorry I have dropped the ball on this guys.  I'm going to call Aerodyn2 this week and try to get some dates and a more accurate cost together.  the testing would take place in Mooresville NC and I'd like to keep the testing to 4-5 cars so we can maximize the time and testing.

 

Car owners and their crews would be limited to 12 total AND because of the high success rate from the last time we tested, I'd lean heavily on those who attended and showed true discipline and willingness to take and give direction during the test scenarios.  So Mark Icard, John Tedder, John Hines, Tom Barnett, Austin H. and Tom Harris are on the team if they can make it.  from there we can fill in the blanks with who is left.  Matt and I will test our cars, and I'd like to get Mark Icards car in the tunnel as well if possible.  Pete Agapoglou has expressed interest in bringing his car down and participating.  The hope is that we would be able to keep the cost at or below $1000 per car and of course we would accept donations to offset the costs and make available any results.

 

Mike

Edited by Mikelly

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cobramatt    20

If taking my car is going to pose a problem, then I will step aside and not go. I certainly don't want anyone getting mad at me for something that is out of my control. I thought my build thread was pretty open and not secretive. I actually know that if anyone hangs out with my team for a weekend can usually get all the info they will ever need about my car. Its not like I drive an F1 car and big $$$ are at stake. I want to know how to make my car better, and this would give me insight into achieving that. When I am at the track racing, other teams will approach and ask my crew questions like, "What pressures does he go out on, How is he set up, camber, toe, All the things that have taken me years to figure out. If anyone looks at my thread they can see that the only time I cant answer a question is when its concerning these certain items. I also know that if we go, I will look to other members who have more experience with Z's in the tunnel. If we were taking Vette's I could offer my experience and be more helpful. I know what works for me behind the wheel under pretty high speed conditions. I think my experience with that is worth something. I also think that I am fairly well suited to try and implement some items that are harvested from the tunnel sessions and apply them to really making the car a better road race car. All of which translates down to anyone's daily driver or track car.

 

We can share results from our sessions as a whole. In other words, share it as a group session. We found that this works and this doesn't, not "well on Matts car this is what we did......". 

 

Personally, I think between the group that Mike has mentioned, we have enough to test and get some real data that would be worth our time and money. I also do not mind going with a few members and their cars, paying for the sessions between the few of us and not sharing anything we find. I thought this was going to be fun and enjoyable? 

 

Let me know what I can do and what I can contribute...........

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JMortensen    235

We can share results from our sessions as a whole. In other words, share it as a group session. We found that this works and this doesn't, not "well on Matts car this is what we did......". 

I don't think anyone would hold it against you that you can't share your results, but obviously the whole idea becomes more attractive to the rest of us if we can benefit. 

 

I wouldn't be interested at all in a subjective "this works and this doesn't" sort of analysis. I'd rather have the numbers for the things that you all can share numbers for.

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Mikelly    115

Jon Feel free to start one. I am interested in testing my car with my setup, which is not complete. I just received more supplies for the lower rocker design and I am also looking at another set of strut tubes to cut down for my front end to get it closer to tarmac. From there, I would welcome ideas on what others would be interested in.

 

Mark Icard is another candidate for testing as is Peej. I dont think any of the cars we are testing are going to be a true stock body car, so factor that in.

 

Mike

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JIM73240Z    11

Ok folks.  If Matt does not want to "share" his information, that is his prerogative.  We do know that Matt is open with his knowledge and pics and if anyone is wise enough to notice changes in his car from the pics after the wind tunnel test, then he is "Sharing" his results with us in a round about way.  Numbers don't lie and if he puts something there it must be for a reason.  I hope to god Matt goes in on this thing, with or without sharing.  The knowledge gained would be awesome.  My goal is to drive out there this winter and drive on some east coast tracks and try to hook up with some of you and have a little info "sharing".  

 

Jimbo

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cobramatt    20

Ok folks.  If Matt does not want to "share" his information, that is his prerogative.  We do know that Matt is open with his knowledge and pics and if anyone is wise enough to notice changes in his car from the pics after the wind tunnel test, then he is "Sharing" his results with us in a round about way.  Numbers don't lie and if he puts something there it must be for a reason.  I hope to god Matt goes in on this thing, with or without sharing.  The knowledge gained would be awesome.  My goal is to drive out there this winter and drive on some east coast tracks and try to hook up with some of you and have a little info "sharing".  

 

Jimbo

Jimbo,

I appreciate your kind words and hope most agree that I try and be as open as I can with anything concerning the car build. I'm in on the wind tunnel and don't mind sharing what we find that works, helps, hurts, etc....... I will say that I apply practical knowledge to my approach to aero. I am fortunate to know some aerodynamicist and fabricators for some pretty elite ALMS and Rolex teams. I asked if one of them I know fairly well and lives here in Georgia, would he come to assist me and the group at the tunnel, He said he would if his schedule permitted and that it would be $1,000 plus expenses for the day. That might sound like an extra expense we dont need but I wanted everyone to know we have that available if we see it is a value worth the $$$. He designed and fabricated the Cadillac LMP cars for ALSM and Le Mans and numerous other teams. In speaking with him, if I ever plan on really making my car aerodynamically slick (as what they consider a high downforce trimmed out race car), I would need to start all over. He likes what I have done to the car and can see how I reached the speeds and times at tracks due to certain items I've fabricated. However he reminds me, the fact still remains that I have a 40 something year old car that was not designed in a wind tunnel, not designed to have 600rwhp and do the things it does. He asks me simply,"What are you trying to do? What are you trying to accomplish? The car wins on track now, isn't that what you were trying to do?". I am interested in seeing the actual data and how the air moves across my car, in person, and be able to maybe generate some new ideas on what may assist me in improving my present set up. In my World Challenge Vette, Its a 2002 C5Z based platform, that was designed in a wind tunnel by GM. It has the baseline for massive improvements in bolt on aero due to the fact that it started its life in a wind tunnel. We will never be able to achieve this with an S30 but we can try and maximize our efforts and improve the cars performance by testing and R&D. I have often envisioned a flat bottom 240Z. If you go and try and smooth it out and add a diffuser it actually works against you. I don't need a wind tunnel to tell me that, I've tried it on the track. To make my car a flat bottom, a functional flat bottom, not a smoother undertray that works around all the crap that is under my car, it would actually require a total redesign of the car. Anyone can add panels under the car to make it look smoother and then a diffuser that looks cool that half the people that have one don't really understand what it really does, I would prefer to leave it alone and not have the extra weight.  I can say from practical experience that I try and understand the pitch sensitivity on my car as best I can, and the tunnel is not going to help with that. If anyone wants to road race their car and experiences the type of braking and acceleration my car generates, then my data might help. If you apply my data to your daily road car its not going to work. 

 

I have some pretty radical ideas as to how to improve my cars aero package. I just cant do it in the middle of a race season because I don't have enough time between races to make the modifications to the body panels and then get adequate testing done. I don't want to share it out loud until I have personally tried it out on my car (if I ever do), but I will say that it hasn't been done yet with one of our cars. 

 

I have an idea of exactly what I want to learn and test in the wind tunnel on my car. I will share the information gathered. If you decide it can help your project and want to apply it to your own build, I have no problem with any of that. The reason we all share our threads is to help one another. I hope that it helps in some way or another but be aware that we are all different drivers driving different cars with different set ups and in no way will we find a universal application in terms of aero that will apply to everyones individual needs. To say that a g nose helps the air move better across the nose because the wind tunnel data shows that to be the case does not mean that a g nose is a better application for a persons specific needs. 

 

I will say that we, MTI Racing, are presently fabricating a DTM body for a C6 Corvette. This series will be in the US in 2015. If there is any sports car series that can lend us an insight to what actually works and how different it is to what we all have, then this is the series. All the cars are relatively the exact same car under the different outer shells. The driver and outer shell (aero set up) are the only real variables that separate you from the rest of the cars. The downforce and aero packages on these cars are what you will be seeing more and more of as we move forward. If anyone is familiar with time attack here in the states, it also shares the same traits as these DTM cars. I guess now you know what I'm thinking when I say I have some radical ideas about how to change the performance of our cars when it comes to aero.........

 

Sorry for the rant.................

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JMortensen    235

If you go and try and smooth it out and add a diffuser it actually works against you. I don't need a wind tunnel to tell me that, I've tried it on the track. To make my car a flat bottom, a functional flat bottom, not a smoother undertray that works around all the crap that is under my car, it would actually require a total redesign of the car. Anyone can add panels under the car to make it look smoother and then a diffuser that looks cool that half the people that have one don't really understand what it really does, I would prefer to leave it alone and not have the extra weight.  I can say from practical experience that I try and understand the pitch sensitivity on my car as best I can, and the tunnel is not going to help with that. If anyone wants to road race their car and experiences the type of braking and acceleration my car generates, then my data might help. If you apply my data to your daily road car its not going to work. 

I'm finding this very hard to believe in light of all the actual racecars that use flat bottoms. I would suggest that if there is a controversy, this would be easily proven one way or the other in the tunnel. I was kind of hoping that you would have a flat bottom since I think you're the most likely person to do it, but since it's just a wind tunnel the bottom doesn't have to actually be attached to the car, or at least not very well. I could see mocking it up with a couple pieces of plywood clamped to the rockers or screwed to nutserts installed on the frame rails or something like that, and if like I said in the other thread, the flat bottom was dropped below whatever hangs down then you could do a nice flat surface all the way back. Once you saw the effect, then maybe you'd know whether it was worth it to do all the mods to your car. I think the big obstacle is exhaust and side pipes is the answer to that. After that it should be relatively easy. 

 

BTW, with regards to the C6, have you seen hemipanter's Vette? Pretty badass: http://www.hemipanter.se/#Corvette Nordic Supercar

Edited by JMortensen

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cobramatt    20

I'm finding this very hard to believe in light of all the actual racecars that use flat bottoms. I would suggest that if there is a controversy, this would be easily proven one way or the other in the tunnel. I was kind of hoping that you would have a flat bottom since I think you're the most likely person to do it, but since it's just a wind tunnel the bottom doesn't have to actually be attached to the car, or at least not very well. I could see mocking it up with a couple pieces of plywood clamped to the rockers or screwed to nutserts installed on the frame rails or something like that, and if like I said in the other thread, the flat bottom was dropped below whatever hangs down then you could do a nice flat surface all the way back. Once you saw the effect, then maybe you'd know whether it was worth it to do all the mods to your car. I think the big obstacle is exhaust and side pipes is the answer to that. After that it should be relatively easy. 

 

BTW, with regards to the C6, have you seen hemipanter's Vette? Pretty badass: http://www.hemipanter.se/#Corvette Nordic Supercar

John,

 

I find it relatively easy, as you put it, to write a paragraph about why don't we just use plywood clamped to the rockers to determine if a flat bottom works. Seriously??? I think that if you are trying to prove to me that a flat bottom car that is designed in a wind tunnel produces more downforce and is preferable over a vintage race car that does not have one is comical. I am fully aware of the advances that have been made in aerodynamics in the last 40 years since our cars were developed. I have raced LMP open cockpit cars at 200mph, I just drove a Crawford Composites DP car at two different tracks assisting a customer of MTI's in setting the car up and clearly understand how the underside of these cars balances the topside of the car and how they work together to keep the car from taking flight. I design and fabricate aero pieces at present for race cars, including my own. I will say this again for the record. Let me paste and copy what I said in my post......... (I have often envisioned a flat bottom 240Z. If you go and try and smooth it out and add a diffuser it actually works against you. I don't need a wind tunnel to tell me that, I've tried it on the track. To make my car a flat bottom, a functional flat bottom, not a smoother under-tray that works around all the crap that is under my car, it would actually require a total redesign of the car. Anyone can add panels under the car to make it look smoother and then a diffuser that looks cool that half the people that have one don't really understand what it really does, I would prefer to leave it alone and not have the extra weight.) Note that I said "MY" car, not just any car. I really am perplexed at your response........... (I'm finding this very hard to believe in light of all the actual racecars that use flat bottoms. I would suggest that if there is a controversy, this would be easily proven one way or the other in the tunnel. I was kind of hoping that you would have a flat bottom since I think you're the most likely person to do it). First I appreciate your thinking that if anyone would have one it would be me, but I don't. I wish I had the money to design an S30 in a wind tunnel from the ground up. Would it have a flat bottom? If the data showed that it was the best way to go then it would have a flat bottom. I assure you there is no controversy, I just don't see any reason to attach plywood to the bottom of my car in a fashion that would not exactly duplicate what I would actually have on my car on the track. Let me assure you that an engineer or aerodynamicist has never in the history of time just attached some plywood to the underside of a modern race car to see the data in a wind tunnel, when they use cad programs to design every piece on the car and simulate the aero in a virtual tunnel before they fabricate exactly the under-tray that is ultimately the best treatment for the car given the data supplied prior to ever even fabricating the first piece on the car.  I want my car to be as slick as I can. I would love to smooth out the bottom of my car and create more downforce, however, in understanding how an actual flat bottom tunneled car works, it would require a total redesign of "MY" car. I also understand clearly the advantage of power to weight ratio's and would prefer my car to be as light as possible. I constructed the front splitter, the side skirts and the wing to help air lay on top of them at speed and through practical, on track application, I have found them to be helpful to me. 

 

John I am the guy who will hire another, much more accomplished, pro driver to drive my car just to hear his feedback and use all his data to improve my track time by 1 second. I want to make my car the fastest and most fun to drive 240GT car on the planet. I never take a position that I have achieved my goal and there is nothing more to learn, as I try and remain teachable and learn new things that might help me in some way. I do not want to be the guy that spent $500K to redesign my car in a wind tunnel. The definition of HybridZ is what each and every one of us has already achieved and the limit will never be reached. When I got my first 240Z in 1978, it was a '72 and only a 5 year old used car, I was hooked and have never looked back. I hope that you do not take my comments to be an attack on you personally but if you want to see the rewards from a total redesign and flat-bottomed "tunneled" z car, I suggest you build one. If you want to pay for it, I'll build it with you. 

 

If we ever wanted to invest in something that would be the most advanced and cost effective way to actually achieving what could be the Ultimate HybridZ then Virtual software would be our answer. There are ways to actually scan your present car in 3D and then run the programs to help answer the questions none of us really have the answers to. I think it might be wise to at least do the due diligence and determine the cost of this approach versus the cost of taking all our cars to the actual wind tunnel. If I had this program I think I would never leave my desk.......... Here is an example of what I'm referring to. 

 

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_109131/article.html

 

There is a saying that is as old as motorsports itself and really sums everything up................."How fast can you afford to go". 

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