Michael

This is probably too conservative for your purposes, but the most straightforward swap would be a 22RE engine, found in 1982-1985 Celicas (the last generation of the RWD Celicas) and 80’s/early 90’s trucks. It’s only a 4-cylinder and definitely not a high-rpm engine, but the torque output is good and it’s 2.4L. First-generation fuel injection, actually pretty logical and straightforward to work on.

There was a very similar problem with my car (78 280Z); the camber of the left front tire was different than on the right front. Similarly in the rear. And indeed the gap between the spring perch and the tire rim was different on the left vs. the right. In the rear, asymmetry in camber can also LOOK like asymmetry in tow, when visually trying to follow the shape of the tire in the wheel well; the tire with more negative camber appears to “plunge†more into the fender (tow-in). After chasing some dead ends, such as looking for bent control arms or crash damage in the unibody, I removed the strut assemblies from all four corners. And behold, the included-angle between the spindle axis and the strut housing centerline was off by about 2 degrees on the front-passenger and rear-driver corners! This was obvious after unbolting everything from the front strut assemblies, and standing them side by side on a workbench. So I started a thread on heating and bending the strut housings in a hydraulic press, to bring the spindle angles back into spec – and whether that might crack the castings, or the strut housings, or cause some metal to lose temper. The upshot was – bending a little is OK, but don’t heat it. But the best solution is to find new strut housing assemblies. The following year I scoured junkyards for 280Z strut housings. Many were bent, and the quest seemed doomed Then, last winter Mike Kelly kindly donated a spare set of housings. Standing the front and rear strut assembly pairs side by side, they looked absolutely symmetric. When I installed the front assemblies, my asymmetry problem magically disappeared – the gap between spring perch and tire rim was equal on both sides. Installation in rear wasn’t possible because I couldn’t remove the infamous spindle pin from one of the rear strut assemblies. So the point is, (1) remove the strut housings and measure them, and (2) either get new strut housing assemblies or bend – very carefully – the ones that you have.

There’s a slightly out of date (about 3-4 years ago) photo-essay on Pete Paraska’s site (look for “Michael Ol’s big block Zâ€). Some day I’ll post newer pictures; though frankly, not much progress has been made since then.

The big block Chevy engine WILL fit in a 70-78Z, but the installation is not simple, and an installation that maintains (or improves) the car’s balance is definitely not simple. The main challenges are vertical clearance (either the hood clearance on ground clearance at the oil pan – your choice) and routing the exhaust over the frame rails. Mounting the engine to the steering crossmember, in the JTR fashion or otherwise, is probably unwise – it should go to mounting points welded to the frame rails. If this is your first swap, it’s certainly worth considering installing that engine in a more traditional car, perhaps a domestic. Meanwhile look for a 240-260-280Z for a swap candidate. When you’ve become comfortable with the tuning and modification of that big block, the idea of fitting it into a Z would be more tractable. I did the big block swap (with extensive professional assistance) and after 4 years, the car is still sitting in my garage.

Personally I’d be willing to pay well in excess of $20K for a V8Z that very closely meets my personal tastes and interests, but the price level drops quickly even if the workmanship is spectacular but the character of the car isn’t what I prefer. A couple of beers and I’d gladly pay $40K for a brutal, completely stripped tube-chassis car weighing <2200 lbs, that runs in the 9’s – on 87 octane, without nitrous or turbo/blower/supercharger, with a conventional manual transmission – and (very important for me) that can achieve that time even if shifted at 4000 rpm. Because I’m a hamfisted dweeb who likes to launch at idle and can’t tell apart a dragster from a yard tractor. But if the car meets the above specs, I don’t care if it’s a Z, a Camaro or a Yugo (as long as it’s converted to RWD). And I really wouldn’t care about the paint job, whether the various lights or gauges work, or if there’s rust in the rocker panels. If you have a car like that for sale, the cashier’s check is in the mail. Why? Because by the time I invest in tools, experience and parts to get such a car built, it would have cost well over $40K, at a significantly lower level of performance. And this isn’t the sort of car that Troy Trepanier or So-Cal Speed Shop would build for you, even if you showed up with a suitcase full of $100 bills. On the other hand, I wouldn’t even pay $10K for a nice “well rounded†car with a crate 350, 700R4, pro paint job and cream-puff interior, that runs 13’s but requires 6500 rpm shifts to get there. But some people would snap-up the latter example for double the price, and would value the former example no higher than scrap metal. So, yes, it all depends on finding the right customer.

For over a year I’ve been shopping for a “small†mechanical roller cam from my 454. Lift in the 0.600â€-0.640†range and duration around 235-240 degrees. A company called Cam Motion has semi-custom grinds in that range, but none of the big-name manufacturers have a mechanical roller cam that small; the choices are custom grind, or having to go hydraulic.

Not to hijack this thread, but I have essentially the same problem on a ’92 BMW 325is that I just bought; it has a later-generation Bosch engine management system. Does not stumble/miss when cold. Happens when the car is warm, below 3000 rpm, also at idle. No problem above 3000 rpm. Occasional backfire through exhaust, accompanied by sulfur-like smell. Idle when warm is unstable (hunts between 600 and 1100 rpm). These cars have an individual ignition coil per cylinder (no distributor). Neither timing nor mixture are adjustable.

It amuses me when automobiles are compared to masterpiece paintings, sculptures, etc. The purists say that modifying car XYZ is like “Add[ing] some color to that Picasso [painting]â€. Hmm… I wonder if Picasso painted the exact same painting 500,000 times on an assembly line, inside a factory, using machines to hold the brush and mix the paint. I prefer to think of modifying a car as modifying a $10 poster-print of the Picasso on sale at Wal-Mart. Sure, the poster is a rendition of a great work of art, but it’s just a mass-produced facsimile. Adding color to the poster does nothing to defame Picasso’s original. If the incandescent lamp lighting my room makes the poster’s colors look pale, I’ll go ahead and alter them – because it’s my poster, and my $10.

Do the OEM LSI blocks really go for around $500? That's quite amazing, to me at least. Aftermarket aluminum blocks go for $3500 and up! (that's Gen I SBC; Mark IV BBC, with which I am somewhat more familiar, are even higher - typically much higher).

Well, to return to the beginning of this thread... Yeah, for some reason most V8 conversions for sale have 3-speed automatic transmissions, and fall into one of two categories: lots of customization with questionable overall effect, or a “just dropped in the engine, hooked it up and got it running†conversion. The former would take lots of effort/money/time to undo the 9†fender flares, sunroof and built-in jacuzzi/wet bar; the latter needs new frame rails and rocker panels. Back when I lived in Los Angeles I’d find a V8 Z for sale in the “Recycler†newspaper at a frequency of one maybe every couple of months. A particularly memorable one was a “Nordskog†(sp?) special, complete with elaborate documentation of its history. Its claim to fame was that it had an emissions system that passed California smog check in the 1980’s, when such swaps were rather rare, especially street-legal ones. Definitely something of historical interest. Well, the thing was in such poor mechanical condition that it had a hard time reaching 25 mph on the residential streets where I test drove it. Which reminds me of the recent “how much will it cost to do a swap†thread on the Chevy forum. I considered buying some one else’s project as a route towards cost savings. But after realizing how much would have to be changed to get the car to fit my personal interests, and how much restoration would be required on all but the priciest swaps, it made more sense to start from scratch. Nevertheless... is Jim Biondo’s Z still for sale? Now that one was a genuine deal!

The guys who do manage the swap for $2000 (that figure strikes me as unbelievably low, but let’s accept it for the sake of the discussion) are veteran mechanics who have owned Datsuns for many years, know what to spot in a used car that’s for sale, know how to distinguish a solid engine from a blown engine 99% of the time, already have all of the tools that they need for the swap, and will fabricate nearly every part needed for the conversion. They’re also lucky; skill and patience alone are NOT sufficient to get the absolute best deals. A more realistic figure for cost, if you already have a “rust-free†car, do nothing to modify the suspension and only replace those components necessary to install and safely fit with the engine – is on the order of $2K PLUS the engine and transmission. A typical car with moderate rust, rotted bushings in the suspension, questionable brakes, inadequate wheels and tires… and an amateur mechanic who still needs to buy tools such as MIG welder, drill press, torque wrench,… figure about $6K, not counting the car. If you make mistakes, such as screw up an engine build and cause internal engine damage – add several thousand dollars for each such mistake. In fact, it’s the big mistakes and the midcourse revisions that really drive up the cost. There are cars on this site that are all-around competent vehicles – attractive, well-built hot rods which run in the high-12’s – and cost the owners $30K+ to build. That’s with the owner doing most of the work. And there are guys who have spent $10K, maybe $20K – whose car STILL doesn’t run, and won’t run for years – never mind paint jobs or functioning air conditioning or any of those frills. Bottom line: if you need to ask “How much?â€, you probably can’t afford it.

We need to distinguish between (A) “it can be done†and ( “it’s worth doingâ€. A – yes. B – probably not. The 240-280Z has relatively high drag and large positive lift because, perhaps contrary to intuition, it has “sharp edges†(hood lip, headlight scoops, others places) where it shouldn’t and smooth inclined surfaces (rear hatch, rocker panels) where it shouldn’t. So, it’s 0 for 2. Pleasing to the eye does not mean pleasing to the wind! Simple experiments with a scale-model Z reveal extensive regions of flow separation – meaning, high drag. Consider that some hot rods based on Model-T and Model-A Fords are running in the low 200’s at Bonneville. So it can be done. But keep in mind how much modification was required to get there. The record-holding 2+2 260 Z was built to adhere to very stringent class rules. This makes the guy’s achievement all the more impressive. But, relax those rules, and the same car could go much faster. So, again: it can be done. But is it worth it?

It is not necessary to “flatten†the springs after a coil is cut – the springs will still sit securely in their perches, because the stock spring perches have enough helix angle to accept the unflattened spring ends. At least, this has been my experience with a 280Z, with one coil cut from each spring.

I have a 1978Z with a 454 big block Chevy engine (pictures at link in Pete’s post). The car was built mainly for “street†purposes, but chassis reinforcement and various other mods were so extensive that street driving will be sparse, to say the least. BBC vs. SBC is one of the great debates in grassroots hot rodding. For the same peak hp numbers, the BBC will be more streetable and reliable than the SBC. It will run smoother and stock parts will survive more abuse. But aftermarket parts are much more expensive. For example, the cheapest aftermarket BBC heads begin at $1700 fully assembled, and most are > $2000. In terms of weight, the BBC block weighs about 230 lbs vs. the SBC’s 180 or so. The crank is about 15 lbs more. The big weight difference is in the heads – about 60 pounds. Figure another 30 pounds weight difference in odds and ends. With a cast-iron block but aluminum heads, intake, water pump, flywheel, etc., the BBC will still be around 80-100 lbs heavier than a comparably built SBC. With the advent of large displacement small blocks, 406†and above, I think that the balance has shifted in favor of the SBC for street-driving purposes. And I say that as a BBC owner. A BBC Z is something to build only after you already have a SBC Z under your belt. Keep in mind the two extremes of advice: most guys who haven’t done it are likely to consider it next to impossible. But, those guys who have done it are invariably veteran hot rodders, whose definition of “a little extra work†differs from the mainstream. I am not a veteran hot rodder, so I paid a friend to do the metalwork. In my car, the front clip was cut off, the firewall and floor were cut out, the floor pan was shorted, a mild-steel tube frame was built on a jig and welded into the car. Then the firewall/floor were welded back in, then the front clip, then the missing segments of frame rails and sheet metal were reconstructed. The transmission tunnel was reworked to fit a Doug Nash 5-speed, the steering linkage was reworked to accommodate the firewall setback, the seats mount to the roll cage, the dash is gone because it conflicts with the cage’s dash bar, the radiator mounting is completely redone, and so forth and so on. The engine is so far back that the distributor sits just 2†forward of the windshield – and the car is still 51/49 (nose-heavy), but that’s with cast iron heads. Because it was completely gutted, the car weights about 150 lbs less than stock. With a stock suspension (one spring coil cut at each corner, plus the JTR bumpsteer mod – otherwise completely stock suspension), the car sits higher than stock. No, you don’t need such extensive mods to swap in a big block, and if you already have a complete engine lying around, the extra costs of a big block are moot. I started from scratch, and in my view it only made sense to build a blood-and-guts race car if I were to go to the trouble of swapping in a big block. In terms of just getting the BBC to fit where a SBC already fits, it really isn’t that much extra work. The extra work is in making refinements to the car commensurate with the theme of a big block. Talk about the “while I’m at it†syndrome in the extreme. As for hood clearance – with a high-rise dual-plane intake manifold (such as Edelbrock Performer RPM) and the stock 9â€-deep oil sump, either the sump will hang well below the frame rails or the air cleaner will hit the hood. My hood had a hole in it, with the air cleaners sticking through. Later I covered the hole with sheet metal and fiberglass. Anyway, to summarize my views as a BBC Z owner: considering the costs, the extra fabrication, the aftermarket support for small blocks and the various challenges involved, I would recommend tackling the big block swap only if you have extensive hot rodding experience. E-mail me at ol_70@hotmail.com for more details.

Mike, Is this another "here we go again" again? I thought that you decided, once and for all, to hold on to that Z - especially after the engine came back together?!

This was asked before (I vaguely recall reading the post), but I couldn't find it - so, to ask again... How long can an assembled short block be stored on an engine stand, before the assembly lube leaks out from the bearing journals, necessitating tearing into the rebuild? After a month on the engine stand, I noticed some leakage from the crank main bearings. I was wondering how many more months I could safely wait, before full assembly and break-in.

I would make a strong distinction between profanity as a general expression of disaffection with the world, vs. a direct attack. If I read a post about how some one got [fill in your favorite profanity]’ed by a car dealership or the DMV, and wants to share his rant, I don’t find that offensive. The man has a right to voice his frustration in the company of friends. But if one member refers to another in a post as “incompetent†or “ignorantâ€, for example – that’s offensive, even though the words in question are by themselves entirely suitable in polite company. So the point is, avoid confrontational and accusatory language even if it avoids any “dirty wordsâ€, but don’t necessarily self-censor dirty words just because your third-grade English teacher would not have approved. The issue of profanity reminds me of letters to the Editor at Hot Rod magazine, whenever they print pin-up photographs of women. Invariably there will be letters from irate readers, lambasting the editors for their “immoralityâ€, corruption of youth, betrayal of the public trust, and general lack of decency. I look at these remarks through the eyes of a person who used to live in a totalitarian country. They remind me so much of “betrayal of the revolution†and “enemy of the peopleâ€. The natural border for freedom of expression is not transgression of the community's sensitivities, but intentional confrontation against individuals. For which profanity and expression of “vice†are neither necessary nor sufficient. I would argue that the main distinction between “now and “then†wasn’t the language per se, but the context. It used to be that the larger the common denominator, the more sanitized the language. Television, being perhaps the most common denominator of all, had tremendous and invasive limitations under the Hays code. But compare the novels of James Joyce or D.H. Lawrence – eminent writers of their day – to today’s literature. I doubt that you would find the latter “less†offensive. For the older fellows on this forum, please consider how machine shops around the country looked 50, or even 20 years ago; posters of you-know-what all over the place. Walk into a machine shop today, and it’s completely sanitized. So which is the more ribald? It used to be, and in some countries is still the case, that men would never swear in the company of women, but would heartily swear when amongst themselves. We have liberalized some “traditionsâ€, but tightened others. The common-denominator thinking at its core means that what’s not suitable for children should not be publicly aired. I disagree completely, because such thinking implies that it is our collective responsibility to raise each other’s children. The presumption is that kids will watch whatever is on TV, so nothing on TV should have obscenity, “if all were right in the world." I would argue that the real “threat†on internet forums is that irresponsible people will hide behind the anonymity of the internet, to hurl insults without fear of reprisal or censure. It’s like going to the zoo, to poke a ferocious wild animal in the eye, without fear because the animal can’t reach out of its cage. If we expressed ourselves on the internet with the same deference to one another that we use in face-to-face conversations, the issue of profanity would be moot.

Grumpy, Could you include a few words on how the break-in procedure differs for roller cams, especially mechanical rollers? By the way, for moderately aggressive lobes (say, 0.630" lift in a big block, 240 @ 0.050" duration) in engines that are serviced often but rarely street-driven (a few hundred miles per year, maybe 1000 miles/year max), what is the basis of the often-claimed advantage of hydraulic roller over mechanical roller?

500 hp is about the upper range for "stock" unibody cars on HybridZ, where "stock" includes a roll cage, strut tower braces, subframe connectors, etc. Most cars, even among the dragstrip heroes, are at 400 hp or less. There is a handful of tube-frame cars approaching the 800 hp range. They are the purpose-built race cards to which some of the above posts alluded. Examples includes Ron Jones, Japtin, and Ratsun (try a search on those names). Point is, no one here has cracked the 1000 hp barrier - apart from bench racing, of course. If you have the engineering knowledge, the craftsmanship skills and the budget to assemble an engine with 4-digit horsepower output, then assembling a chassis to handle that power probably would not be a challenge.

So, will capitalism be the death of knowledge?

I lived in the Los Angeles area (Pasadena) in the late 1990's. Then I was forced to move to Ohio (job transfer). I wish I could move back!!! Let's examine the complaint about the high cost of housing in California. OK, a low-end 900 sq ft dilapidated house in Pasadena costs $350K, while a decent 4-bedroom house in Dayton, Ohio costs $150K. Dayton sounds like a deal, while Pasadena sounds like a ripoff, right? But consider this: The Pasadena house cost $250K in 1998, and will probably cost $450K in 2010. The Dayton house cost $140K in 1998, and might cost $160K in 2010. Meanwhile, you will pay $2500/yr in property taxes in Dayton, and maybe $4000/yr in Pasadena (only slightly more, for a much more expensive house). And when it comes time to sell, the house in Dayton will sit for several months on the market, while the one in Pasadena will sell in a week. So consider the real cost of living - the total cost of ownership over the long term. In that regard, the lowest cost of living is in Los Angeles, the SF Bay area, Boston, NYC, and Washington, D.C. The highest cost of living is in the Midwest, the rural south, and the plains. .... Not meaning to touch a nerve, but going back to the first post in this thread - making $65K in Tennessee sounds like an entirely reasonable income, especially for a young guy with no dependents.

Back when I thought I’d be using a small block (around 1998) I ordered the JTR book, 6 th edition. The frame mount drawings are in some places off by about 1/16 th, as already mentioned. As-drawn, some of the bolt clearance holes are maybe 0.030†off from the listed diameter. But I just used the listed dimensions, some calipers and a machinist’s scale, transferring the dimensions to sheets of aluminum (I used 6-series aluminum at the time) - at it was straightforward. A couple of years later I realized that I wanted to use a different engine, and mount it directly to the frame rather than to the steering crossmember. Most of my engine mounts ended up in the trash.

Mike, If you were to add up all those tons of gravel, concrete, aggregate, dirt, and sand - how many tons would that be? Imagine, adding up the total weight of your garage project, then dividing by the total hp of all of your car projects - what would it do in the quarter mile?

I can personally attest to the repair drawbacks of cast iron heads. After spending something like a year porting my cast iron heads (OK, I’m slow and lazy), I finally took them to the machine shop for new valve guides and seats. First, the shop pressure-tested the heads to make sure that there were no cracks. And indeed, the heads held the standard 30 psi (or whatever their test pressure was) without any problems. After pressing in new guides, the pressure test was repeated. This time, one of the heads failed – it had hairline cracks across two combustion chambers, emanating from the vicinity of the valve seats. Welding the cracks was not an option. So, in the trash they go. That’s a year of porting, plus the cost of cleaning and pressure testing the heads (the machine shop did absorb the cost of the rest of their labor). If you buy a crate engine, and subject it to sufficiently benign use that it won’t need to come apart for years and years, the cast iron heads should be OK. But the more you tinker with those heads, the more the aluminum heads become the better choice.

Thanks for the links, Grumpy. Isn't it amazing how much more difficult it is to find stuff for big blocks than for small blocks. Of course, the size of the market might have something to do with it.... When I first got interested in V8 Z's (mid 1990's), 350 was the largest common small block size. 400 blocks were out of fashion (with a lingering bad reputation from the 1970's) and 383's were still pretty rare. In the big block world, a 454 was still considered a "big engine". Now small blocks over 400 cubic inches are common, and "serious" big block builds begin at 496. If I were doing it all over again, I'd get a 406 SBC. It's hard to beat the torque-to-engine-mass ratio, even if the heads flow less than their big block counterparts, and the combustion chambers have inferior shape. When contemplating a big block build, it sometimes seems silly NOT to build for > 500 hp and a 3500-4500 rpm torque peak, given the entry price of even the low-end aftermarket components for big blocks. But then I remind myself that the original reason for going BBC was for smooth throttle response and low-end tugboat torque.