Gollum

But John, don't tease us unless you're going to give us more info! You give us the tire compounds, but what tire widths were you running? The S2k has quite the rear advantage stock for stock but we have no clue what you two were running. And secondly, that was quite the modified S2k. And how much money had been put into modifying it? Those are two aspects we never even brought up in this thread. I was under the assumption we were talking about STOCK S2k's. BUT, we also never talked about what S2k we're talking about either. Most '05s are going for 20k+ easy, while I can find salvage title, but perfectly running '01s for less than 10k. So in that sense, yes, beating a S2k for 10k total, purchasing the S30, doing up the motor, and getting the suspension in order would be VERY difficult to do. But if all I'm doing is trying to beat a stock '05 for 20k?... I bought my S30 for $1,100, already with a L28ET. Spend $1,500 on doing MS WELL, and I've got all the power I need. Budget another $2,000 for nice wide rims and stick street tires and there's still loads of money left to replace every bushing, make coil overs, etc. It would cost a bit more to do it in NA trim, but as long as the serious weight advantage is maintained I'd say it's doable. But you're right john, as soon as you start talking modified vs modified, especially in the confines of race classes, it's a tough nut to crack indeed.

Hey guys, I think I feel a song coming on... :singing: Sad but truuuuuuue That said and out of the way, I know the OP already bought his car, but you have to factor in your own time when you're looking at build costs comparing a project car to an "over the counter" car, like the S2k or 550. I'm pretty damn sure I could build a S30 that goes around a track faster than a S2k and gets better mpg for less money. But if I'm honest about the time it took to do so, well then it's a whole different margin. Look at subtle_driver's KA powered S30. Super budget and would definitely meet said goals. The OP was talking about spending 10k on ENGINE ALONE, and 40k on the car?! One of the big factors here though, is that you don't need 300hp to make the S30 competitive, even against the S2k. Maybe if you wanted a fully trimmed S30 with two layers of dynomat, stock steel body panels, power seats, etc. But that wasn't brought up in the original post. We were just talking about numbers on paper performance. It's not hard to get a S30 down to 2300 pounds, which is substantially lighter than the S2k. It's also not too hard to get the L motor to 200whp, and with the extra displacement should be at a lower RPM than the S2k giving it a power under the curve advantage, and don't forget that 200whp is about what the s2k puts down stock too... So really even just a "measly" 180whp in a S30 should give you plenty of power to weight ratio to play with and is perfectly attainable and done by many people around here, and in most cases for FAR less than 10k. One of the large downsides to doing that with the NA L motor though is going to be MPG. As you get more and more agressive with the cam and/or head porting it's going to take more and more work to get a nice, good tune on there that will still get 30mpg, but still in the realm of a possibility I think. That said, there's guys who have 350+whp L28ET motors that get 30mpg, though most of those have aftermarket EFI systems like megasquirt, haltech, wolf, etc. But on THAT note, guys with LS1 motors can put well over 300 to the WHEELS with basic mods and also get 30mpg driving it nice. There's also the VQ35DE motor with comes with 300+ hp and should also knock on the door of 30mpg just fine. The BMW M52 motor also makes 190hp stock and you can find a fully running donor to drive home for less than 2.5k ANY day of the week, within 50 miles from anywhere in most cases. Should reach good MPG range. Hell, the 1999 Mustang V6 3.8 makes 190hp and gets 27mpg in the heavy mustang chassis, and being a 3.8 would be a torque monster for being a 6 cylinder. Donor cars, again, very cheap. VG30DE makes 222hp stock, but gets a "measly" 22hp in it's donor, and I don't think you could expect to get more than 25mpg unless driving like a grandma. SR20 guys get 30mpg all the time, and those come with S2k neighborhood power, just over or under depending on model. And they're not that pricey when keeping power levels low. What's my point in all this? You don't NEED 300hp to go fast, and you don't NEED 10k to build a fast motor. Your options are only as limited as your imagination to make something work. There's plenty of paved roads that have been traveled here on these forums. SBC, SBF, LSX, L28ET, SR20, etc. But you could also go wacky and do a turbo pinto motor, or a SHO V6. The only replacement for money when it comes to cars is time an ingenuity. It's much like tools. Ask any good experienced mechanic and they'll say that, yes, the right tool makes the job so much easier and you should always use the right tool for the job, but that when stuck the real mechanic will find a solution with the tools that are available. Creative problem solving is highly underrated these days. So with all that, good luck on your future project, should you have one.

Boost around 11-12 will be FINE on a fel pro as long as the surfaces are clean and nothing is warped to begin with. As far as a difference in part numbers I'm not sure/don't recall. If both are available just get the one listed for the '83 turbo. Most fel pro failures that I've talked with owners in person about, it seems to usually be an issue above 15psi, and even then it's questionable if it was avoidable or not. I personally wouldn't worry about it unless I was going over 20psi, but I tend to be on the cheap/adventurous side of things.

Well he had it dyno'ed I know that much! Oh, it's driving too, but I think we all knew that.

Which is why the car needs a test drive this Saturday.

Hey, ya only paid $100 for it. Find another and sell what you can, I bet you can make that $100 back.

I'm converted! I've been changed, born again even! John, when can I order some Motul oil from you?

Also a possible benefit, but again, I've seen guys do V mounts where the inlet and outlet are at the FAR end, making it nearly as far of a trip for the air as a conventional setup. I've also seen guys with V mounts with open atmosphere BOV systems which is hilarious because a well done recirculating setup can have just as much impact of overall response as having nice short piping. And of course, with the idea I proposed, a conventional vertical setup brought as far back as possible, you could run just as short of piping as the best done V mount setups.

I've seen plenty of slant radiator setups for this very reason, but I've never seen a V mount radiator/intercooler setup that actually uses a larger radiator than could fit vertically. Most people I've talked to who have done V mount setups do it because they think they'll magically have a cooler intercooler since it won't be attatched to that "hot radiator". In truth, either setup (v mount, or stacked) will work much better when done right, versus just thrown together. It's no different than air dams. Go look at the HybridZ windtunnel data. It's amazing the difference between just making sure to install an air dam well, tight and gapless, versus just a little loose and with gaps. It's no different with a radiator & intercooler. The quality and flushness of the mounting is what counts. Duct work is far more important than radiator or intercooler size. And like I said, "done right" a further back core support WOULD tie in better than the stock core support and ADD rigidity. It's just that few people go that far.

I've been raving about these motors left and right, even on this very forum with a thread dedicated to them. This might be hard for some to swallow, but I personally believe the new 5.0 platform might be the best OHC V8 platform every created simply when to look at the insane level of refinement coupled with the volume they will sell. Sure there's "more advanced" OHC V8 engines out there, but not in anything close to these production numbers and available in a catalog for such a price. It's no different than how as much as a non-chevy guy it pains me to say it, but the LSx platform is simply the best pushrod platform created. Now, as for fitting one in a S30. There's be AT LEAST two ford Mod motors put into S30's, one of which was a 4v lincoln motor. These coyote motors are considerably smaller regarding head dimensions, but that doesn't make it a walk in the park. Relocation of steering linkage will pretty much be a given unless you want to make some quite spectacular one off exhaust manifolds, which might be required anyways. From what I've seen though the stock mustang manifolds are only hurting maybe a max 15hp and look like they might be a good fit for a S30. There's also the issue of getting pipes past the burly T56, but plenty of people here have managed just fine with their LSX swaps using the same box. Oil pan is already a rear sump, so fitment there shouldn't be a huge hassle, though the block is a very deep skirt so getting it slung low might be problematic, which brings you to the height issue. The stock intake is fairly "low profile" but I'd be concerned about the overall height of this beast. Worst case scenario would be requiring a hood with a couple inch cowl, or you could go to the other extreme of x-member modifications to lower it as much as possible. The reality though is that people are fitting them in just about EVERYTHING right now. Cobras, T buckets, Hot Rod Coupes, vintage Stangs, etc. I even saw one in a Fox body. So there's plenty of people out there "making it work". It's just the matter of having the money. At $6k+ for a crate motor it's too rich for my blood, but as with ALL things mustang, the price WILL come down with time. It's only a matter of time before they're in the junkyards going for the same flat rate, sitting next to the old pushrod 5.0 motors.

Congrats! I can't wait to see where you go with it. Just keep up updated.

I use conventional oil in my NA Z cars, but that's simply because I'm cheap. If I paid over 3k for one or rebuilt an engine myself I'd consider running synthetic. For a completely stock L motor I just don't see the point. Now, my current DD is a 280zx that I got with 200k on it and BAD oil burning on engine braking and even keeping it in neutral while braking I'd still go through almost a quart every 500mi. So my cheap ass started putting in 20-50w. I've received flack for that here but guess what? The engine now has 245k, runs as good if not better than when I got it, and has no indication of getting worse. Is this from my oil choice? No, but I'm pointing out that oil weight is only a small aspect of engine health. In a perfect world I'd figure out if its a leak in the head or rings, and just fix it. But why would I do all that on a car that's been fine for over 40k that I got for FREE??? Now, my turbo motor always gets synthetic and I run 10-30w. But I'm a firm believer in synthetic for turbo motors and choose weight base more off of what temps are where I live than anything else. Also, I add a zinc additive in most cases because most oils are low on zinc since it's no longer as needed in modern engines. But I'll be the first to admit that's more of a "well it can't be bad so why not?" kind of thing.

The engine side AFM clamp looks loose. Nice shiny new AFM though.

To me personally, the LT1 is kind of a bastard child. It doesn't really offer enough improvements over the old school SBC motors to really interest me, and isn't any cheaper to build, while the slightly more expensive LSX platform is infinitely better all around. Swapping one for less than 1k would be a stretch, but 2k would be a breeze if you do it right. The VH is a great motor, but I've never been a fan of motors that you can buy for $500 then have to spend at least that, if not double getting a good transmission onto. The VH was never equipped with a manual so adapting a manual takes work. Just be glad it's easier than mating a manual to the 1UZ. These aren't "budget' motors. Any time I price out a dream VH or 1UZ build it quickly escalates to stratospheric levels. Think about it this way, for the price it takes to build a VH45 to 400wheel HP NA you could just buy the 420hp ford coyote 5.0. IF you want to run stock power, then it CAN be a "budget" platform, but for those power levels there's a million other motors to consider and the VH just doesn't keep my interest. If you want to swap one in and do a budget force induction job, then you're still looking at 5k probably by the time all is said and done, and you'll be limited to stock internals, at which point I suggest there's plenty of other motors with similar internal power limits that can be built for similar prices. Either one is "fine" and I don't have anything against them, but if you go with one make it because you CHOSE to, not because of some false sense of being "better" than other options. Any option is only as good as you make it, and there is no magic bullet for speed.

This thread is so shed worthy, but I'll bite... DON'T BE AS CONCERNED ABOUT WEIGHT TOTAL AS YOU ARE WEIGHT PLACEMENT. Yes, that was all caps. It was meant to be yelled. I'm not saying saving weight isn't important, but the V8 versus L6 handling topic has been beaten to death. Even a 600# motor isn't going to KILL your handling. Will it change the handling characteristics? Sure, but what engine swap won't? Keep in mind that ideally you want your weight as centered and as low as possible. A V8 already is two cylinders shorter than a L6 so you get an upside there. Plus since it's a V configuration the bulk of the block sits lower than an inline motor as well. If you have a pushrod motor the cylinder heads are extremely compact compared to an OHC engine. So really, pound for pound, a V8 should kill an inline 6 when it comes to weight placement. The issue that people have is that most V8's aren't exactly "light" compared to the stock L motor which is a featherweight in the inline 6 realm, especially for having an iron block. All that said, there's no reason you couldn't get ANY pushrod V8 (even big block) to handle as well as the stock engine configuration. Given your criteria, I'd say an aluminum block LSX is the way to go. Shouldn't be much over 400 pounds. That'll push 300hp in it's sleep, on a bad day, with the flu. Good strong sample plus the right cam should put 400 to the wheels in short order. The only downside is that it's a spendy swap. On the other hand, building a SBC or SBF with aluminum heads and supporting parts to make 400hp isn't exactly cheap either. If budget is extremely important, the SBF might be worth considering too. Stock iron heads can easily make 300hp, and the distributor placement makes it easier to get it slung low and nearly touching the firewall, while SBC swaps end up battling the hood latch with the dizzy. It's only the difference of a few inches, but a few inches when placing 500# can make quite a difference.

I'm sure if Kim is no longer going to carry/order them then other Rota suppliers will. Rota wouldn't just throw out a mold.

Assemble the front cover while the only thing removed from the car is the radiator some time... Boy is that nerve racking!

Yea I'd just do what I could to get the front cover bits swapped over and get the old motor functional again. That said, I wouldn't call this a total loss. You now have a spare P90 and block to build, if you so desire. That P90 is far from ruined. In fact, I'd say it just makes a perfect candidate for chamber reshaping as long as the deck surface is indeed flat. Since you're going into mechanical engineering, I'd suggest waiting to see what kind of equipment your school will let you have access to. I know the local UC here has an extremely intense machine shop and student projects that are completely unrelated to any class project are everywhere. They'd usually rather you USE what they have, even if for personal use, since most students are too busy with their noses in books to care about APPLICATION.... So read up on chamber welding. It's not as mystical as some make it seem. It's the reshaping that's a very complicated bit, but doing basic improvements should be pretty obvious to anyone going that far. I'm sure you could easily model some basic chamber shapes off of MONZTER's head and be a better off than a stock P90. Spark plug relocation done right can pay huge dividends. The P90's deeper chamber (shorter valve) can also have the benefit of making it easier to unshroud the valve and welding the chamber will allow you to keep the CC's back down and compression up. If I were doing this (and obviously I'm not you, even though I DO have a spare P90 sitting behind me as I type), I'd be shooting for a compression of about 8.5:1 giving me flexibility to run sub 400hp on pump fuels, or much higher on meth/eth fuels. If I was going for meth/eth only I'd shoot for 9.5:1+ even as high as 10:1. If you know you're going to run pump gas 90% of the time and want to be able to run huge power keep the compression lower, in the lower 8's or high 7's. If you're able to use your school's welding equipment and CNC stuff for next to nothing, then making a really bad arse head shouldn't cost you much at all. If you wanted to get fancy you're looking at spending money on valve seats, valves, springs, cam, stem seals, etc. And also, don't forget you can save your old valve seats from machine murder if you get some old used valves and grind them down a bit, then install them on the head to be CNC'ed. Now you have a valve in there you don't mind hurting and preventing a mistake from taking out all your hard work (especially useful for hand port jobs)

Been too long since posting. Only a little over two weeks before the BBQ! At this rate the hope for finishing by then is slim, but I'll press onward. My real date to have it sorted by is October 11th, though I'll most likely be working out of town the week before, so end of September is my target. I haven't had many blocks of time to get a lot done at once, but here's where I'm at. So ALL of my lighting relays are wired to the fuse panel, waiting to be wired to where they're going to and to switches. There's a dedicated relay for Low Beam, High Beam, Running, Brake, and Reverse lights. For sake of simplicity turn signals and the wipers won't have conventional ground switching, but instead will be positive pass-through switching. Oh, and my headlights are done being wired towards the relays other than grounds. I'm waiting to ground them till I have the front turn signal wiring done and can ground them all at once to one location. Once that's done I'll be able to throw in a battery and test my headlights, though I've already done a preliminary test to make sure I was 100% right on my wiring pin locations. To wire: (ouch, long list) Headlight switches (doubles as running) Turn switches rear lights to relays (brake, reverse, turn, running) brake light switch reverse switch (not looking forward to that) Two ignition switches Wire said circuits (coil, ECU, Fuel Pump, stereo) Horn Switch Horn Relay Wiper Swtich Gauges (lights + signals) I feel like I'm missing something, but that's a decent start on all the junk needing to be wired. Fun times.

For those who wanted to see the details of above pic a little better: I know you might have been trying to be artistic, and I appreciate that. Just though I'd offer people the ability to actually see your wonderful dash and such.

First, Fuses are rated in AMPS, not VOLTS. Very different. It's like the difference between frequency versus volume of a sound. I'd say the ECU shouldn't pull more than 5 amps. I'd start there then if it blows consider going up toe 10 amps if there didn't seem to be any good reason why it blew and it otherwise had been running fine. If it blows right away you might have some grounding issues, if the engine did something weird then it blew you might have wiring issues. If it just randomly popped after some time then you might need a few extra amps. Under fusing and having to go up is much safer than over fusing then having an issue that the fuse doesn't blow for.

I understand your thinking through and through, and it's scary how aligned our philosophies are becoming. I will mention this though: Wiring from scratch without the stock wiring in the way is MUCH easier. As someone who is currently rewiring from scratch and finally "getting it done" I can say that the stock wiring is insanely complicated and takes up way too much space. You "CAN" add modern circuits but you'll be severely limiting where they can go and what they can look like in layout. Though I'm ALL ABOUT getting it done in CHUNKS that are MANAGEABLE so the you actually GET IT DONE. Cars are meant to be driven, not rot away in the garage with brand new parts installed that never see actual use. That's something I really admire about Jay Leno, is that his cars get DRIVEN, even if they're from the 1800's and even if he doesn't have the time to do it personally. Overall Jesse, I approve 100% of your plans, and that's been a rare thing my friend.

Is that a list of what you WANT, or what you HAVE? Big difference. I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that unless you either A. want to take forever to finish a build, or B. have lots of money, you really need to take your budget and cut it in at least half, if not a quarter, then see what you can build with that. Too many projects never get finished because of the scope of the idea. It's easy to get carried away with a "simple project". Been there done that. My favorite memories are of DRIVING cars, and generally my head is filled with the "simple projects/swaps" because they GOT DONE and I actually DROVE them. I'm almost of the opinion now that garages are evil places to keep cars, and that if you can't finish a stage of a project in a week then it should be left to those with deep pockets and serious dedication. Starting a "budget" build with a deep scope (suspension, body mods (flares, custom shaving etc), unusual engine swap, welding cage/tube chassis bits and such) is TOO MUCH for most of us to tackle effectively all at once. If you keep your project on the road and demand as such, you're much more likely to get stages DONE and keep it on the road where you'll actually enjoy the work being done. So all that said, I'd say "throw it together" with what you have and go from there. Don't fuss over the details. The details that matter are the ones right in front of you and those will sort themselves out as you need to tackle them. Don't freak out about what tires you're going to run when you're still on jackstands with not suspension. Don't fret about compression for force induction when you're tackling welding mounts of a swap. Don't fret about composite body mods while you're bound to the garage in a non-running state. This is where I'm at in my 75. I took it off the road because I could, due to having a second DD capable vehicle, and it's been garage bound for almost 3 years now, which is a tragedy. If people check my project thread and think I'm crazy for being so "basic" or "cheap" or some might even say "ghetto" I'll just wait and laugh when I'm actually driving it unlike the 75% of us that are on this forum because our car is in a perpetual project state. I don't resent this board or it's members. I, in fact, love this place. But it's too easy to get caught up with ideas with out actions. Let other's projects be inspiration to actually DO, not inspiration to just dream.

So not as much done last two days as I wanted, but tomorrow should be very productive. I removed the left rear bumper support mount, as the rear bumpers was just cut off originally (not me). Serious pita but one down. I was half surprised at how heavy it was. Glad to be ditching at least another 15 pounds between the two I'm sure. More to compensate for the eventual cage. And my relay panel is FINALLY ready to be drilled for mounting relays. It took much longer than I wanted but I'm at least happy with the time invested. Figuring out exactly where I wanted it was difficult and once I figured that out, the exact approach wasn't easy as I was dedicated to not buy anything and wanted it to be as function as possible. It's another cut of stainless from the sheet I have. I took the top of a round die grinder to it to swirl the surface then heat cycled it, though I'm probably going to heat it up again tomorrow. Why? I must admit looks were a factor, but I have a justification. For anyone that's driven with a plain aluminum dash you can appreciate this. Eventually, the sun hits your dash just right and you get blinded, no fun. I'm hoping the swirls with help break up reflections and that the coloring will help dull what reflections make their way to my eye. Why not paint it? Because paint on a surface with things mounted to is bound to chip and such, especially with super budget methods. This seemed like a more "full proof" method to alleviate the issue. It will be mounted all the way right on the upper dash mount bolts. I'm considering doing the same to my dash, but will probably wait until I get all my switches and gauges mounted then pull it all off. Just seems easier that way for that huge chunk of stainless. Detail shot of the swirling. Didn't take long really. Spent most of my time on this thing just figuring out how I wanted to do it. The actual creation was just about an hour.

No offence PPK, but you know normally me and you disagree greatly on stance/style of a car, and that's okay, but I actually agree with you here. Holy grail: http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp The S130 can handle much taller wheels than the S30 and still "feel right" without major modifications. This is largely due to the fact that they came with taller wheels to begin with. I'm currently running 215/60/15 and feel it's just right and in the middle of the sweet spot. My speedo is spot on (was too fast on previous 195/70/14's), and wouldn't really hesitate much about stepping up to 225/60/15. In reality my perfect world choice is to run 255/40/17 but that's tough to fit up front, which leads you to run a 245 wide up front at least, which means you have to settle for the 45 side wall, though that's not the end of the world (just a tad tall imo). All in all, just be glad you don't have to add flares to easily fit a decent width, unlike many other cars out there.