Gollum

If you want big tires without flares lookup clifton's car.

I've been saying things like that for a while now, and it's amazing how few really believe me. In playing with E85 tuning, it's just plain retarded how you can't have real detonation issues with any factory turbocharged vehicle. This is the perfect fuel for people wanting to boost NA motors like the F20C. I've seen 600hp 2 liter motors that at peak HP levels you can adjust timing as much as 3 degrees with zero power difference, and still end up with a huge AFR window. Tuning it with a gasoline mindset like most shops will leave quite a bit of MPG on the table... I've been dreaming of building a turbo MN47 L28 that's purpose built for E85. Goals would be 400whp, 12+:1 compression, 30+mpg, and possible non-intercooled.... And tony, CNG might be awesome, but filling is just plain not-convenient. Of course if you're racing that's not really an issue. But for those who want to DD their project and still take it on long trips, it can very easily become cumbersome from what I've looked into.

If all out power is the goal, running more boost with lower compression is just about ALWAYS the answer. But in the street driven reality, very few guys own weekend warriors with sub 7:1 compression, it's just not practical. If you want and out the arse guess, I'd recommend flat tops + p90 to anything bellow 350whp. Above that I'd say you'd want the extra insurance of the lower compression, but at that point if you're spending any decent money I'd say get custom pistons that have a smaller diameter dish section, allowing the quench of the flat tops with the compression of the dish pistons. Also at that point you'd be wanting to have headwork done with chamber reshaping, and match the pistons to that shape. Or you just do what many people do, buy a junkyard motor and turn up the boost and don't cry when it breaks. The 400whp HAS been borken on junkyard longblocks. I personally don't know I'd do that myself, but hey, there's no "right" approach here.

The MUCH better option if that's your goals is to run a twin injection setup, with one set of injectors running gasoline, and one running E85. It might seem like it's much more complicated, but it's much better in the long run. You'll never have to worry about finding E85 on road trips and you'll get your 30+mpg on the freeway, and you'll always have the benefit of E85 power when you put your foot into it. Member here 510six has a L28ET in his 510 pushing a good 400+hp off the bottle with some healthy nitrous on tap. He runs, if I recall correctly, a 3 gallon tank in the trunk with E85 and it lasts his a LONG time. When you're only running it under boost like a twin injection setup then you end up using a lot less than you might imagine. Megasquirt can handle twin injection setups, but if you want something a bit more plug and play companies like AEM offer models designed for twin injection use.

Not trying to knock you or anything, just curious, what makes you think you're making that much power? Only times I've seen someone reach close to 300hp at that low boost is with extensive head work. Generally on closer to OEM or mild heads it'll take a good 13-15psi to get to 300hp. For example, most stock L28ET's at the 280ZX factory 7psi will put around 170-185 to the wheels... I DO dig the car though. Car is definitely the 80's done RIGHT. Boo-ya! Any idea what that thing actually weighs in at?

You don't want to run MORE gasket thickness, you want to run AS LITTLE as POSSIBLE. The flat tops have more quench available than the OEM turbo pistons and you want to take advantage of this fact. There have been plenty of people to make good power on this combo, and personally I think it's probably the best mild sub-300hp setup for a L motor. And people. please don't bash a combo based upon how much total timing you could run. That's like saying my car was slower because it wasn't as loud... Just because one combo can't run as much timing doesn't mean it's making less power. It takes dyno time with programmable fuel and ignition on both engines to really deduce which combo makes more power where. When you run a P90 on flat tops, you're not just reducing the overall size of the chamber volume, you're also reducing the flame distance as you cut off the outsides of the chamber due to the quench, giving you a more spherical shaped chamber. So you actually have TWO aspects that will cause the engine to NEED less timing. Note that needed timing is a very different aspect than timing limitations due to detonation. If you want to do it right, I suggest using a OEM or felpro head gasket and then loading up the tank with race gas. Then you can play around on the dyno and see were peak power actually is in regards to timing. Once you have it tuned nicely, and safely, put in some premium and see where the chips land. If you only have to pull 3 degrees or less then the power "loss" from the added compression should be minimal. And remember that the main place that the timing needs to be pulled generally will be lower and mid RPM under heavy load. You shouldn't have to pull much at all at the very top of the RPM range, which is where the added compression will really shine. Don't settle for blanket statements that say something can't or shouldn't be done. There's plenty of people that say the MN47 shouldn't be used with flat tops on street driven NA motors using pump gas, yet there's the people doing it. What doesn't work for one person can very likely work for someone else. I have my theories, but I'm here to say "go for it".

Tim covered my thoughts well but I'd like to reinforce. E85 has a MUCH wider range of "happy" from stoich, or lambda 1.0 compared to gasoline. You can run MUCH MUCH richer without fouling plugs, and quite a bit leaner without having low load ping. The biggest MPG issue is keeping your foot out of it, and tuning the low load areas of your tune. People don't realize just how much timing they can still run under low load, and how lean they can actually get it. If you're running lambda 1.0 running down the freeway you're just wasting fuel imo. And of course power takes fuel, and with E85 it's going to be a lot of it, but there's no reason you need to get significantly worse MPG on a regular basis unless you only drive at the track. I've personally seen examples of people keeping MPG within 15% on tank averages, and in most places E85 is less than 75% the cost of low grade gasoline, which makes E85 possible the most economical HP improvement you can make, especially when you consider it can make more power EVERYWHERE, unlike many other aspects of engine tuning. And energy content per volume is only an ASPECT of power that can be made with a fuel, like throttle body size is only an ASPECT of power your engine can make. Even "octane" is just an ASPECT with almost no indication to how much power resides in the fuel.

Why does the builder assume a lean condition? Could just as easily been a hot cylinder from cooling inconsistencies right? A cylinder doesn't have to be in a "lean range" to detonate per say, that's all.

#1. Stop comparing E85 with octane rating numbers, it's nearly irrelevant when comparing gasoline to non-petroleum based fuels like ethanol. As tim posted, others have done it. The conversion isn't that much different. If you want to do it "right" you'll need programmable EFI. Bigger alcohol rated pump is a good idea, alcohol rated rubber fuel hose, and alcohol rated injectors, probably at least 30-40% over what you'd need for the same power with gasoline.

itz ~ it sounds like you've gotten good advice from people who HAVE done it, like bjhines, but it seems like you still haven't gone and done your research in the aero thread. That section of the forum was opened up because people HERE actually banned together to get windtunnel time and tested many popular configurations to see what the real results are. If you were having bay temp issues despite the turbo blanket and coatings then your bay is still at a very high pressure. The issue isn't getting air in, but getting air out in an efficient way. The tests also concluded that ANY air bypassing the radiator into the bay led to increased front end lift. I know I'm "just some guy on the internet" but I'd be willing to bet that rocky auto's top speed isn't any better, if not WORSE than a completely stock 240Z with 300hp. Go check out the numbers. By doing the front end right you can go from having quite severe front end lift to front end downforce. And more than anything else the testing showed that there was no magic bullett but that you need to have a SYSTEM approach. Treating just the front or the back is a waste of time. Doing either hap-hazard is just working against you as well. Which is why people here are being very vocal about trying to help you out. We don't want to see you cutting up your front end just to end up being worse off in the grand scheme of things. Even if you've brought bay temps down by 50 degrees is it worth it if you've pulled your top speed down by 20mph? Also, as mentioned just a few posts ago, what bay temps were "too high"? I've seen plenty of OEM bays that get outrageously hot under track conditions. As long as the fluid temps stay manageable I don't really see the issue in this regard. Use a turbo timer or just make sure you never shut down right after a run and you should be fine. Keep water and oil temps within a happy zone and call it good as long as you're not melting things in the engine bay.

Funny, I thought for someone guaranteeing 360hp out of a head that $5500 seems right on the market, or not far off. At those levels you're talking about welding chambers, possibly welding intake ports to raise them up, and who knows what other goodies to get there. Point being, I've seen what $2-3k gets you here in the states and it's certainly not going to get you a full all out race head. It'll get you a really hot street motor, or a mild race motor, but if you're looking for every ounce, that's chump change. As tony pointed out though, go to japan if you really want to spend money, or feel like you have cash burning a hole in your pocket. Everything is all perspective. There's a lot of reasons things cost different amounts around the world. We would all do best to not get offended at these differences.

Okay, now we all need to get in on a group buy for some window vinyls with a picture of The purple dinosaur with a caption that says "Beware Of The Dinosaur" Is that what the D stands for Tony? Tony Dinosaur? IMO, simple answers have their place, but I try to not over-use them for the sake of someone's ignorance. If people want to stay narrow minded I don't waste too much energy trying to get them to see beyond the simple solution. If I was a car guy who wanted a simple solution I'd have just gotten into mustangs or camaros where power comes easy and parts are just a wallet away and people can tell me how to spend every dime of it.

You guys should also be keeping in mind that valve size is hardly a defining issue for a stock head in ANY case. Larger valves won't magically open up the breathing of the head. People assume it's the larger valves in the P79/P90 that makes them more power on their L24 block (once shaved and such to get the CCs back down). This is hardly the case. The later head designs were far superior in many ways and to look at just valve size is just plain ignorant. When having a head ported, YES run the largest size valve you can fit in there and make breathe. If I had a MN47 just sitting there any my only concern was weather or not to change the valve size I'd say GET THAT SUCKER ON AND RUN IT!!!! Too many people don't finish projects due to lack of bench racing to satisfy their wang before they get their arse in gear and do something. I'd rather learn from my own mistake but have a car on the road, than to never get something on the road because I'm still looking for flaws in my thinking.

I wouldn't dare touch that can-o-worms with a 30 foot chin spoiler. But let's see how well I can dance around that fire. The issue with "this is how to make X power" is that it goes entirely against the grain of truth and dumbs down the truth to a simplified version of truth. This might sound very philosophical but lets examine. 10 years ago when the honda scene was at it's peak internet forums were crawling with "stage 1 power" this and "15hp gain list" that. In reality people were simplifying something that should never be simplified. Now we have car guys that say things like "how much power should I get from a stage 1 upgrade to my L motor?"... An engine is a combustion driven air pump and has about a million variables to consider when designing one and most of those areas can be considered when modifying one for a specific purpose. If you were to ask me "how do I make a 200whp L motor?" I'd say "how do you make breakfast?" Those questions have a lot more in common than you might think. A much more targeted question is something like "what's the most economical way to reach 200whp without a turbo?" and then let people know where your skills are at so they know what they can suggest. For example, while one person asking that question might have next to zero cylinder head modification skills I might suggest sending a head out to someone like Paul and tell them to build an appropriate head. If the person were more adventurous and ready to take on a challenge, well then I'd be more likely to recommend doing the shaved P79/P90 and then doing a good job to match the intake, exhaust, and cam arrangement. Even in that scenario there's no "right" or "wrong" answer in a lot of ways. You could use just about ANY cylinder head for the goals mentioned, yet people will tend to recommend one over another. You could also go after building up a crazy bottom end and then just slapping the right intake exhaust and cam on a stock head and rev up to the moon to make the target power. You could make it on carbs or EFI. Let me just think off the top of my head all the variables that can be considered when building an engine: Valve size, valve stem length, valve stem to head taper, valve seat angles, valve seat surface widths, valve material, valve spring pressure, valve spring weight, valve angle, valve bowl shape, runner shape, runner area, runner radius, chamber size, chamber shape, spark angle, spark depth, spark plug design, spark plug heat range, spark plug wires, distributor/coil design, cylinder head cooling channels, cylinder consistency, cam lift, cam ramp rate, cam duration, lobe center, cam timing, lifter design, lifter friction, lifter geometry, piston weight, piston crown thickness, piston to wall surface, piston ring count, distance from piston deck to 1st compression ring, thickness of piston rings, material of piston rings, surface of ring grooves, wrist pin diameter, connecting rod length, con rod material, con rod balancing, con rod shape, con rod bolt size/type, crankshaft (you could write a college school book on this subject and just be scratching the surface), plenum shape, plenum volume, runner to plenum taper/radius, exhaust primary diameter, primary length, exhaust restriction, etc etc etc I could go on for days on that paragraph but limited myself to 10 minutes. There's huge sections I didn't even touch on, but that's just to wet your apatite on how infinite this subject gets. So next time someone asks "how do I reach these goals with my engine" just remember that they're probably severely limited in what they actually want as an answer versus how infinite the subject really gets. The truth they want is small, while the real truth is many times larger.

I think the "argument" or "disagreeing views" is the valve size standpoint, as it was mentioned by someone earlier that since the MN47 has the smaller valves that you should replace them with the later Z motor large ones. And the end of his post was more about how every thread that mentions the MN47 seems to go up in flames like an on fire news paper with poo on it. It's never a pretty thing really.

Removing the intake with the shield on is a pita. Removing the shield with the intake on is a pita. It's a crap world sometimes. I've been able to pull manifolds with the shield on, it just takes patience and a good selection of short/deep sockets with various extensions. Once you have the intake off you can just grind the bolt head down, or use a cut off wheel, or just chuck the thing into a good hot fire and watch it melt like the little pain in the butt it is... ...anyways. Have patience, you will overcome.

Low octane gas actually acts VERY nicely with modified NA motors, provided you keep the TIMING out of it at the lower RPM range. F1 doesn't run fuel that would be considered "high octane", they simply out run detonation. We can learn from their philosophy if we care to admit how it can apply to us. It's not hard to make a L motor that revs to 10k. Does it cost? Yes. But plenty people have done it and are still doing it. Having a head that flows up there is a whole different matter of course. Point being, most detonation will be observed under 4,000rpm in most NA applications. With good tunable ignition you should be able to pull enough timing out of the high load, low RPM areas of the map to compensate for the lower octane. Look at the modern luxury or sport cars. They usually say something to the effect of "use premium for full power" and in most cases where there's actually published figures by the manufacture showing the HP difference between pump gases it's rarely more than 3%, in fact I've seen plenty where the spread is hardly over 1% power difference. This is what you can do with MODERN TUNING CAPABILITIES. If you want to push the limits of 87 octane, be prepared to spend money on at least the brain that controls the whole thing. Oh, and regarding turbo configurations and all that, I agree with Tony completely. It really doesn't take much money to get power from a L28ET, even on 87 octane. And I'm 100% behind the philosophy of tuning for the "worst case scenario" and then letting the good scenarios be insurance. Too many guys are tuning their E85 setups without considering that when winter rolls around they'll probably get a winter blend of E70. This is a huge reason why the GM vehicles have a fuel sensor to measure the blend and adjust accordingly, not to mention the headache of mixing partial tanks...

Still though, nearly a 100hp difference and the guy walked away? Either there was quite a weight difference (totally possible) or there wasn't quite a HP difference. I'd love to see pictures though! If he's a member here I've never seen anything on the swap. Props out to him!

You know yasin, of all the S30's without bumpers that look fantastic, I've never seen a S130 look "right" without a bumper. But yet your car on the other hand, should be banned from EVER driving ANYWHERE without the hood and bumper REMOVED!!! Man that's just pure sex on the beach with a margarita in hand.

Why not MS1? Seeing as we even have a sticky just for the MS1 install iirc... As to the OP's "which one is the most plug and play" question, I'd say that if "plug and play" is what you're looking for maybe MS isn't the right product for you. The very flexibility and price point makes it so almost no matter what you're going to have to make it adapt to YOUR setup. Sure you can "fallow directions" from someone else, but that still doesn't make it plug and play. It's not like an "all in one box" system you can get from the big companies where you KNOW that all THOSE parts are going to require ZERO calibration or reconfiguration as it's all setup for those parts already. With MS you're adapting the ECU to YOUR configuration so you can use your coil, sensors, etc. And all that said, MS2 makes the most sense to me as it makes for a slightly simpler setup. You can see a straight forward article on diyautotune.com. They cover pretty well the difference between mobythevan's MS1 install write up versus the changes that need to be made for a MS2 install.

Somehow I knew another Pcar wouldn't be that far down the road. Did you even make it a year mike? Congrats!

In theory you can use a dish piston with a MN47 while still taking advantage of quench, just not with STOCK dish pistons. You'd need something with a custom dish that's a smaller diameter dish circle.

Either check your driving style or pull your trans and inspect it before using it. PLENTY of guys have had their trans live above 300whp just fine. It's the guys shooting beyond that with issues. Big phil is a classic example. He didn't have serious transmission issues until he'd already been running over 300whp and then kept turning up the boost. He was also smart enough to have inspected the trans and run quality oil in it too thought. Garrett was also running big HP on the stock trans for a long time. Search around, 300 rarely equals Z32 trans upgrade. IMO, that conversion is just added weight. Keep the weight down, don't shock load the trans, and keep it all in good working order and you should be rewarded with a trans that's happy and lives for a long time.

Wow, got some fuel in reserve there? Planning for 500hp I take it? I'm still debating what I want to do for fuel. I'm gonna take the stock injectors to their limit first, but then it's either new injectors + rail, or adding a secondary pump and boosting the pressure as much as I can (I've seen 80+psi done on this forum, a loooong time ago). In the long run I want to run a twin injection setup petro/alcohol, in which case I'd probably HAVE to just run large injectors to simplify things.

One of the most important rules here is that there is NO BEST. We're all just trying to save you some headache if we can. And to show some real world results instead of just bench racing, here's some videos that show what I'm talking about. 3.1 Stroker: Not how fast it revs at around 1:00 MonZter's L24 bored 1mm over: If you watch those videos, you'll see that thought MonZter has a setup similar to what you're talking about it doesn't rev THAT much faster than Brian's 3.1 liter, and brian's 3.1 revs faster than most lightly prepped 2.4 motors. Both of these motors are pushing around 100hp/liter so they're no slouches to be sure. I'd be happy with either motor honestly.