Gollum

The honda motor could make 75lbs much sooner, and the lower cam COULD make 75lbs at that, but Honda usually chooses to go for a semi-economical cam for the bottom end bellow VTEC while the VTEC side has MUCH more duration, plus the extra lift as well. I don't know the exact specs but from what people are saying the Coyote Cam specs are actually fairly mild. The variable timing on the cam should show you though how even a cam can look when it's fairly optimally timed through the RPM range. If it were timed statically to make that 60lbs per liter at 7,000 then it would probably be make MUCH less than 60 lbs at 2,000. The LS2 can make that kind of torque because it's downright the BEST flowing pushrod V8 head that any OEM has ever manufactured. (relative to valve size of course) Combine that with a wonderful chamber that allows a good burn with good quench and you have an engine that can run high CR AND flow like mad. It's why even a LS1 with just a cam doesn't have a hard timing pushing 400+ hp to the wheels with a stock redline, and coincidentally enough, you're looking for 200hp out of nearly exactly half the displacement of a LS1, and you have an extra 800rpm to do it before weird harmonics even come into play. We're all saying the same thing here. Just get the head cleaned up doing some BASIC work to it, run a stock 2.8 bottom end, get a cam that's good for your goals, then match the fuel system to match and you're done. I posted my torque examples to show what PRODUCTION motors are putting out, and those things have ZERO cam lop and pull cleanly through the range. Most of those engines also have restrictive exhausts with catalytic converters which rob power (and torque). They're all examples of starting points, not end goals. A STOCK L28 is pushing a rated 163 lbs stock, equating to 58lbs per liter. That's also at a measly 8.3:1 CR. So if you get a cam that pulls clean torque numbers from 4000-6500 and keeps up to 65lbs per liter to 6800rpm, you've made your goal with just 2.8 liters. To get 65lbs at 6800 I'd expect to be shooting for around 70-73lbs per liter peak at around 5,000. 2.8 * 65 = 182 * 6800rpm = 1237600 / 5252 = 235HP * .85 (15% drivetrain loss) = 200HP RWHP Is that mathematical enough? Experience shown in this thread from other members shows that this isn't hard. A datsun L6 with good carb and exhaust breathing has a fiarly flat torque curve. Extra compression and more aggressive cam alone should get you in the ballpark. Personally I'd also have some basic chamber work done anyways, but that's just me. People street drive similar setups all around the world just fine. I think people have a hard time believing it's that easy because they don't believe the L heads actually flow that well, or can flow that well. Looking at port flow data that others have provided (like 1 fast Z) I'd venture to say it's an AMAZING flowing head for what it is. It's not crossflow and wasn't really designed as a "high end" motor from what I can tell. It's not really anything special, but yet with just minor work they can show big gains that get it in the realm of many newer heads, even some DOHC heads at that. It also doesn't help that there's so many that have built motors and made serious design flaw choices in their build and then wonder where the power is. Even as JohnC stated, they had to do running length and taper testing to really fine tune his motor for what he wanted. You have to be willing to change things around and find out what works best for your combo if you want to get the most out.

You should see what I've been building in solidworks.

Hey, to be fair by my measurements it would fit wonderfully. The main obstacles would be the cross member/oil pan clearances which could always be fixed with a custom cross member, or using a front sump setup on the front engine, which luckily isn't hard to find for the VG motors. The next big hurdle is custom exhaust, which honestly should be cake for anyone willing to undertake such an adventure. Think about it though. If a normal VG30ET can reach 500rwhp on stock pistons, what could a VG66ETT do?

I personally feel that understanding why a BMW sounds a particular way on startup is a worthy question and learning exercise. Now, going and spending a ton of money going after a starting sound might be a bit of a grasp for me and others, but I don't think that makes this a worthless thread. And in the spirit of that initial question, let's maybe bring up this tidbit: I can almost always tell the manufacture of a vehicle around me by the sound of their cranking. Mitsubishis are the most distinct I find personally. Weather it's their I4 or V6 they have a similar quality to the way they turn over that screams "hey, I'm a mitsu and I'm starting now". Another easy one to pick out is toyota V8's, which sound nothing like other V8's at cranking. I was also noticing the other day that a huge diesel Ford F350 sounded exactly like all the F150 non-diesels I've heard. Maybe companies just like to use the same starter across their model range, or maybe there's something else to the sound of an engine cranking over that's unique. I just find it interesting that you can take two very different engines from a manufacture and see that they sound the same when cranking. So in light of that, I'd venture to guess that if you went out and bought that BMW starter and adapted it to a L6 with the gear and mounting distance it might not sound like a L6 cranking at all. Who knows?

How about a 6 liter V12? Maybe even with turbos? I blame braap. Not only did he help fertilize the idea but then flat out admitted he'd had the idea before too! Ironically, all this time later (old thread resurrection!) I'm thinking that I'm going to go with a VG for my next swap, and I'm considering compound induction via VG33ER with a front mounted turbo, probably in the T66 range.

I thought I was a tree killer? My bad...

2011 Ford Mustang GT - 78lbs of torque per liter. 11:1 compression, 4 valve DOHC 2000 Honda S2000 - 76.5 lbs per liter. 11:1, 4 valve DOHC 1993 300ZX Non-Turbo - 66lbs per liter. 10.5 4 valve DOHC 1998 Corvette - 61lbs per liter. 10.5 2 valve OHV I just thought that might be an interesting comparison to lay out there for people. It's amazing to me that one might only expect a PRODUCTION range of torque when building a motor for a hot street setup. All those motors can make MORE torque if desired. Torque is directly tied to two main factors. There's cylinder filling, aka volumetric efficiency, then there's combustion efficiency (how much power is being made for a given CFM flow). Almost any motor can reach 100% VE with the right intake, exhaust and cam. It's hitting it for a broad range or high in RPM that's usually quite difficult. Getting a big block isn't actually all that difficult to reach 100% VE in when your target range is 2,000rpm. Then you can combustion efficiency which is highly affected by compression as well as timing, and how much timing an engine needs/likes. While lowering compression might mean less power, you can also run more timing. And while more compression might make LESS power in some cases due to the timing needing to be pulled from a ping happy setup, extra cam can prevent low rpm ping and push the powerband up, giving more overall power and making a compression ratio work. There's even a lot more to it than that which I haven't touched on. But my point is just to draw out again, that it's all about a SYSTEM that creates a setup. Not a parts list. With the right SYSTEM 80lbs of torque per liter isn't impossible, and you can even leave a stock longblock unmodified and even leave it in your engine bay while you do what's needed to make well over 200hp.

That's exactly the issue, how many of us actually have access to affordable CNC time? I sure don't. It doesn't even matter if I could engineer it correctly, the machine costs are just plain prohibitive. A crank output to snout flange can be made with relatively simple methods using widely available tools, which is why stacking them externally seems like a neat idea. Also, most of the people needing to rebuild their rotary engines every 60k are usually either force induced, running monster HP, or their engine is running dangerously lean from time to time for rotary standards. I've seen plenty of people with mild NA rotary engines make it past 200k before needing new seals. Rotary seals don't like force induction, plain and simple. They make lots of power, but the seals just don't last. I'm in agreement though that emission standards have surely dictated some things for Mazda. Mazda designed high compression versions that could make a lot more power, but it would have never passed emission standards even in it's day, hence why the cavity design on the rotor has changed nearly every generation of the motor.

Without getting into a rant, let me just say that I, along with most race bodies, consider Mazda's 13b to be a 2.6 liter. Keep that in the back of your head for later. Okay, I've had a million crazy ideas and I've been bold enough to share a few on this forum. A few of my crazy ideas have actually lead to something, while most fall by the wayside, but if I never share then I never even give them a chance to flourish. So here's the latest that's been mulling around my head. So we know engines can be coupled together in various ways with success. We know the Z engine bay is quite long. People have talked about putting two V6's in to make a wicked V12 combo. Well, here's a 1-up ya idea. Why not try to squeeze THREE 13b rotary engines into a S30 chassis? Easy 200 whp each that will still drive nice on the street, which means easily reach 600+hp total, with 7.8 liters, and should be able to make around 500 ft lbs to the wheels. In order to make them fit the coupling would have to be very tightly spaced. Much tighter than these two rotary engines in this thread http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/58126-multiple-engines I'm picturing something more like that way those two flatheads are joined in that thread, but kept as short as possible. If you can get the engines nearly butting plate to plate I think all that goodness would fit. Considering you'd only need one alternator, one larger starter, one flywheel, one clutch, and so forth that the total package weight might be as low as a comparable displacement big block, but the weight would of course be quite low slung. I think the best part of this idea, is that you can get 13b cores for so cheap. If you can do the machine work yourself on a lathe & mill (even if it's by hand, not fancy CNC machines) then the total cost could actually be lower than what it takes to build a comparable BBC, which has kind of always been the standard to many people for affordable big power numbers. Another crazy aspect is that you can easily enough get a 13b to 250+whp if you don't mind it idling at 1500+rpm. Adding it up theres quite a lot of power potential, and all with a mostly flat torque curve. You can also run carbs, or EFI and get good results. So there you go. Might be a bit crazy for most people, but I know if I had the means I'd have some motors in my garage to play around with.

Just email him and wait for a response. Tell him you're from hybridZ and you're in hayward and willing to pick up. Not sure if the price is still the same, but if it's raised a little it's still going to be cheap compared to any other option in this size that fits.

You're making me want to get off my butt and do something Tony! You know, I have a freshen'ed spare E88 sitting in my garage, and a tired L28E that wants to be rebuilt. I'm really temped to bake my head and add some aluminum for some quench pads and then do some basic machine work just to get my hands dirty. It's already got nissan comp springs... Just need a good cam and voila.... And I'd do all this "just because"

I just realized something rather humorous about this thread. The sub-description says "and still driveable????" Can everyone with a 250+whp NA L motor who street drive their cars please stand up? Seems like most people that come on here asking questions are shooting for 300+hp, not a mere 200.... That's rather funny to me.

1 Fast Z's 3.1 doesn't seem to die out at 6500... seems to pull quite nicely all the way to 8k... I bet he's making a whole lot more than 200 to the wheels too... I personally feel you can expect a lot more than just 60lbs per liter out of a mild L engine. As you can see from the STOCK N47 head above it's making around 64lbs per liter TO THE WHEELS! I'm all about theory, but you have to base your theory off of what experience you might have access to. We have case after case after case of L engines that easily reach 100+hp per liter when prepped right. We have case after case of motors built on a budget that rev to 8k. You've already gotten the mass of opinion from people on this board who have experience seeing builds actually WORK, unless some other forums with people that slap on a cam and exhaust and expect some magical HP increase... Many of those out there that aren't making power are failing to do some basic research before purchasing parts. You (the OP) seem to be interested in doing things right, and even spending a little bit of money to do it right. Now, for my .02 cents of how you should spend your money (because that's why we're all on here right? ) I think of lot of what you're looking for is response as much as high RPM limit. As such, I'd say get a L24 block, and bore it out and use K24 pistons with OEM comparable clearances for street friendly warm up and performance. Use whatever head you'd like to go for the compression you'd like, probably at least 9.0, and probably no more than 10.5 depending on what cam you'd like to run. You're wanting good wide power so I'd stick with a milder cam with milder CR, so less than 10. The most important thing though, is to take this head to a good head machinist, and clean up the chamber. Unshroud the valves and clean up the seat to chamber area. Regarding the port I wouldn't worry too much since your power goals are conservative. Some basic work might be desirable, as outlined by BRAAP here in the stickies. Odds are you gain all the extra flow capacity you need just from the chamber work which is one often overlooked area of head flow. Then just port match your intake and the port work is done. Find the cam you want, and run a valvetrain setup accordingly to assure you don't float the valves but don't wear the cam beyond what's needed. This usually isn't a problem in the L crowd, but I've seen people upgrade valves to way beyond required and suffer from needing constant valve adjustments as often as oil changes. Make sure to pair the engine to a lightweight flywheel as well. And if you feel like spending the money, have your machinist take any weight possible off the KA24 pistons. There's always areas of OEM pistons that aren't structural areas that can be taken out a little, and every ounce you save on piston mass will reduce stress on the bottom end and increase revability. You'll see even in the OEM realm how much piston weight matters as you start to demand more power per liter without force induction. Just go look at the new Ford Coyote pistons. Now just tune the sucker and you're done. Your choice of EFI or carb shouldn't make any difference with the importance of tuning the engine. This is one area that's often overlooked by people who don't see the power they were going after. Find out what others have run, what their setup was, and how it worked for them, and what their AFR looked like on the dyno. I'll say this because if there's one thing I've really taken away from hybridZ it's this. System System System. Build a SYSTEM, not a collection of nice parts. This is the lesson learned with people like MONZTER or even the high HP turbo builds like Tim's. The system needs to match. Everything from intake runner diameter, cam, exhaust primary, carb jet, etc. Don't overlook a single aspect and you'll be rewarded with WAY more power than most people expect for a given setup. I'd bet you could do this all for around $3k easily enough as long as you find good honest people to do the machine work and are willing to do some work yourself. You'll have around the same money invested as those doing an engine swap, but you'll also have a pretty mean machine with an awesome sound, and the power you were after. You can spend far more on other areas of the car, so I personally think it's a pretty realistic budget for an overall build.

As long as you don't mind being associated with low riders, the people with 30 inch rims on their lexus, and the honda guys with giant park bench size wings. Cars can totally be about self-expression and I'm glad people can find a way to enjoy their cars. But I draw a very distinctive line in the sand between me and people who don't care about performance when they start modifying their car. People like me are 100% Function>Form Other people are 51% Form>Function And that's all the separation I need to distinguish myself apart from them. Don't be fooled, I can appreciate the fabrication and thought that goes into some cars that are more form than function. Jesse James' gas tanks are about as little function as they get, but his bikes have a unique character and his fabrication is something to admire. It's just not something I'd want to own.

As john said, you're better of selling and starting over from a stock turbo motor. That said though, your compression is probably just about perfect for running E85 if it's available over there. Regarding your last question though, you can get 350whp out of a L28ET (stock 280ZX turbo motor) without taking off the valve cover. Let me rattle of what I can think of off the top of my head. Needed: L28ET Longblock T3/T4 hybrid turbo (or holset or something similarly sized) 500cc+ injectors Manual boost controller Intercooler + plumbing Decent BOV (recirculating type can help with maintaining turbo spool) RRFPR (if using stock EFI) Custom turbo-back exhaust (MSA makes a downpipe for S30 application if you want something over the counter) High pressure fuel filter High pressure fuel pump Recommended: Megasquirt or better aftermarket EFI system Wideband O2 with datalogging capability Fuel Rail Better fuel lines In the US I could purchase all that for under $3k easily, but I'd also be doing a lot of work myself. Since you stated yourself that you're not extremely mechanical you're probably going to have someone else do it, so you're entirely up to the mercy of them and their rate of hire. I personally like the L28ET because if you're on a budget you can get away with changing very little to get to 300hp and it helps keep the budget low. You CAN spend a lot of money doing it "right" but I've seen very few actually put the time and energy in doing it "right". There's many more of us with hobbled together setups using lots of stock parts and making it work. All that said, you can just go get a RB25DET which is much more available in Europe than here, and be done with it. 350whp is a walk in the park and you can even leave the stock turbo in there. Instead of spending $3k on modifying an engine you'll be spending $3k to buy the motor and put it in, and then spending a few bucks on getting someone to tune it. But swaps aren't for everyone. So it's just a thought.

I'd use the virgin P90. Excess shaving of the head will usually not help when it comes to valve shrouding, but maybe it's had some major chamber work. Pictures please? Also, the hydraulic lifters in the P90 you have are fine. I have yet to actually see a lifter failure on them personally, and have owned those heads in the past with no issues. The lifters will rev a heck of a lot higher than the stock springs will go, and we've seen people on this site reving those lifters past 8k without issues. The only reason I can see replacing them would be for cost, as finding the OEM nissan part can get expensive. Solid lifters are readily available and affordable. That's the reason to swap them, if at all. But as John said..... budget?

And people were doing the same with datsuns... ...Was I just channeling Tony? My head seems to be spinning. Does anyone seem to trust these weights at all? At first I was like "that's light, must be a longblock weight" but then as I got further down I realized the V8's were absurdly light as well. Is there any reason to believe these? I can't think of any DOHC V8 capable of 4+ liters that's much under 400 pounds in longblock form and will usually weigh in over 450+ once you add accessories and such. And they're way down at the BOTTOM of the 300 pound range??? Seems unlikely.

Exactly why I started this topic! Please, share some info wiki-D! What's your experience been?

It seems we haven't had a decent thread on this topic in a good long time and I was recently re-interested in it via a book I was reading on EMS tuning called "how to tune and modify engine management systems" by Jeff Hartman. It was a decent read, but I'm not here to review this book. I'm here because they go through covering an interesting project twin charging a MR2. What got me thinking (and frustrated) is that they had predictions on how things would go down on the dyno and the results surprised them all. They had it mocked up to run supercharger only, turbocharger only, and combined as well to study the way they interacted together. What was frustrating was the lack of resolve to the project coverage and how things ended up in the end. So let's talk shop. What experience does everyone have on the subject. How should the terms twin charge versus compound charge be used? (it seems to me that a system with a bypass that switches from one charger to the other shouldn't be called "compound"). Why would you go with a setup like this? What would you have done differently (if you've done it before or seen it done first hand)? I'll start off with some interesting talking points. 1. It seems that when a positive displacement supercharger is used with a turbo, it's fairly safe to size the turbo according to the total displacement of the engine+supercharger. I've seen some suggest multiplying engine displacement by supercharger pressure ratio, but that could lead you to some absurd sized turbos if you're wringing every last ounce of performance from your supercharger. 2. Air temps will always be an issue with these setups. I personally feel with how available E85 is you can just use that in a twin-fueled setup spraying it under boost, or using E85 exclusively. Something else to look into is the fact that water injection systems have come a long way regarding dependable information combined with tried and true setups with concrete results. 3. I'd personally like to try compound charging someday, and think a great test bed would be a VQ33ER. We all know those bottom ends will handle 400+hp without modifications and it all comes down to fuel and spark control with lots of boost. What really interests me is that the heads don't flow extremely well in the higher RPM range and as such the high HP turbo dynographs look wonderfully flat and huge. These aren't "peaky" motors, even at 500hp. I'd love to see how throwing a supercharger into the setup changes things up. Can you get the benefit of faster spool (from supercharger) combined with the torque spike + drop off that leads to flat HP curves? Or is it just going to be impossible to size a turbo to do both? If this thread totally flops I'll only be mildly disappointed, but if we even get just a little bit of good information flowing it'll be worth the effort many times over as this isn't a well covered subject out there on the internet and I know we have the minds around here to contribute good info.

That's all exactly what I expected you to say ray, I just didn't want to say it for you. But it's when things like this aren't clarified that some noob will get it in their head that the 82-83 CAS system is bad too!!! The good news is that all the information is available here on this site for those that are willing learn facts, not just myths.

Just to clarify for people so we don't start any more internet myths than needed, which CAS setup where you using? The stock 81 turbo, 82-83 turbo, or a later 300zx turbo cas?

There's also Bryan Blake (aka 1 Fast Z username on here) who though younger than the other said porters has shown he can fight with the big dogs. He's the own who's built the L31DETT that can be found on youtube. Head on that engine is 2 KA heads cut into 2 cylinder chunks and put back together. Anyone who can do that kind of work certainly deserves some respect. Here's a link to his head ported page on his site: http://bandmzcars.com/HeadPricing.html If quick turn around is the goal, just make some phone calls and see what people say. Personally, I really like Paul just because he's such an awesome guy when it comes to getting information that other porters don't want to take the time to give out.

Thaaaaaat's what she said. Just trying to bring some lightheartedness back to this thread in case it got sucked up a bit. I'd generally have to agree though. There's many other areas to spend money that can make most engine budgets cry. It's hilarious how many people just buy a S30 and throw a SBC in and expect great results... If more time were taken on all those cars getting the suspension and brakes sorted better the SBC powered S30 would probably hold more respect across the motoring industry, instead of just being a drag-crowd pleaser in many cases. I've got the details on what I want to do with my S30 when it comes to suspension, brakes, cage, etc but I probably won't know what engine I REALLY want in the end until I get there. I might go through several before I'm happy.

Comments in bold above. Just to bring some contrast to what CAN be done with a KA for cheap (which is a big reason many go with them) this car was built by a member here, for a total cost (car in all) for under $1500. Stock longblock, at 25psi You can read about it here: http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/79096-ka24de-into-240z-swap-completed-with-turbo/page__hl__grassroots Now, I agree that the SR makes "more sense" in many ways. That DOES NOT MAKE the KA a "garbage" motor or choice. There are many worse motors I can think of that I wouldn't put into my car. That being said, the KA makes TONS of sense in a few arenas. When built under a high budget with time an energy put into every detail they offer more cubes and a head that can flow gangbusters. When building something super cheap with 300hp as a goal, they're much easier to get a hold of for very cheap and that can make all the difference in a build. Though the SR will require less parts to support power, in my mind it's better suited to that in-between power reals, from 300hp on up to 600hp. Beyond that I think you're better off in some ways with the KA who's shortcomings can be overcome. If you want a "garbage" motor to argue about let's talk about the Ford lima 4 cylinder, which I would still argue is not a bad motor up to the 250-300hp range.... Or how about honda motors that can't make 50% more power turbocharged versus NA without rods bending. Or how about some of the open deck 4 cylinders that won't hold more than 125hp per liter before needing to be converted to closed deck. So my point blank observation is that there are many worse options in the world than the KA, so just saying they're garbage seems a bit extreme.

Gotta love blanket statements... You know, most production motors were "never meant to be boosted" and never came as such from the factory. That doesn't stop people from boosting them, reliably at that, and making gangtons of power. Take a look at the 80's ford 5.0 motor. Never intended to be boosted, yet people boost them all the time and put down over 400hp to the wheels for years on end without reliability issues, and that's more than double stock power! The KA is a huge 2.4 liter, and Nissan Japan never had a use for a 4 cylinder that large due to displacement taxes. They'd rather use a smaller motor and add a turbo if needed, while here in america we'll just take the torque from a large 2.4 and be happy. The Accord is a perfect example. Most people never miss the V6 when they have the 4 cylinder because it's got plenty of getup for most people. So we've never seen a turbocharged honda in the states. So to make huge blanket statements is not only narrow minded, but it's borderline against the very thing we're about here on hybridZ. If this site were like most of the net then people doing SR20DET swaps wouldn't be welcome here, because we'd only be allowed to talk about SBC conversions. But instead this is an open minded forum in which people are allowed to express what THEY want to do, and people that share what's "stupid" or "can't be done" is widely discouraged. Fact: People make tons of power from turbocharged KA motors Fact: Most of those people have fully aftermarket internals Fact: Stock KA internals won't hold a ton of boost Fact: Stock KA crank doesn't like to be revved high Fact: Many blown KA's are from revs, not HP So there's some DATA to get people to coming to THEIR OWN conclusion about something. Some might look at those facts and say "I don't think I want a KA" and that's more than fine! Some might say "I think I'll take up that adventure" and that's fine TOO!!! Sorry for the thread jack. I just can't stand posts that give short single sided opinions with little to no data to show why they think that. If the mods want, feel free to delete both posts and I'll be on my merry way.