Gollum

Since we don't have some concrete CA Smog input, I'll give what I can and Ray will probably chime in if he sees this thread. My brother is a smog tech no, and my best friend is a smog tech who's worked for state refs and has been offered ref positions on more than one occasion, so there's my accolades to qualify that I'm not just some idiot. I don't claim to know everything smog related and the laws change every year, but here's the gist. Under current law, almost ANYTHING you do will be illegal. By california law, anything modification you make that changes the amount or mixture of air OR fuel going into the engine needs to be certified by CARB. This means even a larger throttle body is illegal, as it will allow more air into the engine. An exhaust header is illegal as it will scavenge the cylinders DIFFERENTLY (maybe not even more or less) thus changing air and thus fuel amounts. If it increases HP in ANY level it's technically illegal if it doesn't have a CARB number. Is that an extreme view of the law? Yes. But it gives the authorities room to move and do what they need/want to do. Your car is pre '96 thus pre OBD-II obviously, which is great. Because if you install something like Megasquirt on a OBD-II vehicle you will automatically fail smog because you have no OBD Diagnostics Port for the machine to hook up to. So what can you do? As much as you want to/or think you can get away with. Will a cop or smog tech go looking for your ECU to check if it's stock? Probably not. But funky wiring might tip someone off. A missing dizzy because you're running EDIS or some COP ignition might be a bit of a tip off too. Most smog techs will fail you depending on what you look like because they'll assume their license and thus job, is on the line. If they were caught, or if you were from the state then they could loose their license for life. The REAL beauty of our laws, is that we have such good provisions for engine swaps. As long as you transfer all of the smog equipment from the engine's donor than you can swap anything from a newer vehicle as long as it's a passenger vehicle or light duty truck. They will frown on you putting a 460 from a Ford F-250 in your Z. Might not even BAR label it. As far as passing a modified head, it's definitely doable, but I think having the stock ECU will be fighting you tooth and nail. As long as you have a good functioning EGR along with minimal carbon build up, solid compression test you'll be able to pass. Most L engines I've seen fail, fail due to very low vacuum, thus a poorly opening EGR. Most failing L motors will pass if you hook up a hand vacuum pump to the EGR valve during the test. What happens is as the engine ages and you've got low compression you have low vacuum under load as the engine is struggling to breathe well, and the EGR never gets the chance to open all the way. What will really make it hard to pass is a radical cam, since it will dramatically change vacuum levels under light load and lower RPM that you'll be at during the test. Keep the overlap minimal and you should be okay, but that will also limit how much compression you can run before reaching knock limitations. Running a high compression motor is totally doable on the street, but getting one to pass will be almost impossible. Your best option in my opinion, is to just pull the motor and swap something else in and BAR label it. And talk to the local Ref BEFORE you buy a motor. Tell him what you're doing and find out what will be required. In the end, he's the law you need to satisfy, so find out what he wants. Be kind, curious, and thoughtful and you'll usually be rewarded by meeting a guy who really likes cars and is willing to give you advice. And honestly, I doubt you'll spend more than you would on modifying the L motor. A decently ported head will set you back a good $1k + and other rebuild costs incurred while putting it on. I've completed swaps for less than that.

Try driving without the knock and o2 sensor? Amazing what problems they can cause.

My garage is always open.

Yo Leon, next time your taking the car up to sac stop by if you can spare the time stopping in vacaville. Maybe that well give me the inspiration to get my s30 on the road. Maybe by this summer I'll be ready to run some autox's.

That's a good and a bad imo. HP is so easy to get it's infectious and you chase your tail like Big Phil. That dude has been around every mountain five times and still hasn't hit his power goals it seams. On the flip side a NA motor is a NA motor. You can only go so far until you hit extreme budget concerns so it's a good self-throttle on the project. I've only got 10k mi on my L28ET 280Z and I'm constantly refining the idea of what I'm going to do, and it WILL be something very unique, all because I'm not bitten by the turbo L bug.

Yes you're wrong, but not in the way you might think. It doesn't take much to get a high compression L motor to run on pump gas in all honesty. And don't think of it as "you can't run as much timing because X person changed compression and it pinged at the same timing".... well duh! With higher compression you normally don't "need" as much timing. High compression also means smaller chamber, which means less distance for your flame front to travel, plus the more you compress a mixture the faster it will want to inherently burn. It WILL be more detonation prone, but that doesn't mean it will be inherently a bad setup. The biggest key to getting it to run well and be able to use pump gas is all in the cam. Certain aspects of head work can help, such as polishing the chamber to reduce head transfer to the head and such. For a 200hp goal, sub 11:1 compression won't kill you. Just get a good sized cam in there and dial in the timing, then just tune appropriately. If you're only looking for 180whp you already have 90% of the parts you need if you're willing to get dirty. I know you have all that efi stuff there lying around, but remember that almost no matter what, since you want more than stock HP the ECU (or ECM, PCM or whatever you want to call it) will be fighting you the whole way. There's no point to go and waste money finding one and trying to make it work. So here's some basic plans I'd recommend considering: Plan 1: Estimated cost ~ $500-$750 Pull L28 apart and blueprint block. Have machine work done only if necessary. (generally it's better to re-use bearings and such if they're within spec, as aftermarket pieces aren't always what they crack up to be). Do basic headwork on the N42. Unshroud the valves, blend the bowl mildly, lift the upper wall of the intake port a bit, port match the intake manifold. Throw in a decent cam Install decent exhaust Rebuild SU's, tune them well There's no reason you couldn't get a solid 160whp on this build, and if you really pay attention to every detail 180whp is believable. Plan 1B: Estiamted cost ~ $1000-$1300 Same as above but bore over the pistons a good 3+mm (wall thickness won't matter a ton at these power levels imo). This will get you not only some extra CCs, but also bump the compression a bit. Both are wonderful things when utilized correctly. Plan 2: Estimated cost ~ $2500-$3000 LD28 Crank N42 Head KA24E pistons 2mm gasket Mild head work, same as above GOOD cam (isky or sunbelt grind) The problem with this option is that not many bother running SU's at this point with how much money you've spent, and you very easily get into the "while I'm at it" mindset, which WILL blow your budget. If you really do it all yourself you could come in way under the budget I just estimated. It takes lots of patience and endurance to find the parts and do the prep work yourself. The reward is that 200hp should be EASY. Shoot for 250whp and if you don't make it you don't make it. Focus your post build energy on plenty of dyno time and getting your carbs dialed in. Half the battle with any build is tuning it which is where a huge portion of the power really comes from. I can't count how many motors weren't making the expected power simply because of tune issues. With any above builds consider a good lightweight flywheel and solid clutch. Makes ALL the difference in the perceived power of the engine and will also free up a could HP. Plan 3: Estimated Cost ~ $1000 Find a L28ET donor or whole engine. Shouldn't cost more than $500 if you hunt long enough. Convert the car for EFI Wire engine Make exhaust Done The key to this is making sure you get ALL the parts from the EFI and such. People that piece meal together their turbo swaps have been much more likely to run into issues getting it running right. Estimated HP at STOCK levels should be at least 170whp. Turn up the boost with a $10 manual boost controller to 8-10psi and you should reach 200whp. Plan 3B: Estimated Cost ~ $2000 Same as above buy add: Larger, decent injectors. At least 400cc Megasquirt 2 LSX or similar coils Wideband O2 Intercooler You now have full timing control which will make a HUGE difference. You also now have a better cold running engine, and when tuned well will drive better around town. You'll get better MPG once tuned. You'll have quicker turbo spool, part throttle and throttle transitions will be much nicer. The big upside is that you can now bump the boost gradually as you tune it, all the way up to 15psi and beyond if you dare. You have all the parts in the mix to reach a solid 300whp. 400whp is doable but rare just because it comes dicey on stock pistons if your tune is rocky. Experienced builders tend to just put forged slugs in, and generally wouldn't have popped the motor anyways, while inexperienced builders tend to bite off more than they can chew and turn the boost up too high to early, and kaboom. 300whp is a very safe level though that thousands of people have reached with this combo. I agree completely. But I also know that the L28ET is a totally different character of a powerplant than a NA L motor. It's as much a question of preference of the owner as it is cost for HP. Words of wisdom right there. I'm not sure that MS is really needed for a true budget build though. I think sticking with the carbs is a good idea if you're wanting to keep it simple and minimize the work required.

I think that given that you'll still be well under 9:1 compression you'll most likely be fine, even with the boost. You might have to back the timing out as much as 4-8 degrees under boost compared to an "ideal" setup, which at WOT under boost could be as much as a 5% power difference, or roughly 15hp at 300whp. That might not sound like much, but if that's roughly how much you were loosing, you have to remember that you'll be loosing much more down at the lower RPM. As RPM increases detonation becomes easier to avoid. Of course it's usually high RPM detonation that will blow an engine, but 9 times out of 10 that's from a bad tune that didn't account 100% for things like multiple pull temp increases. Down low, where even a stock NA engine will ping with bad gas and too much timing you could be loosing potentially 15% of your power potential as compared to if you'd set it up tight. This would dramatically effect things like off throttle response, turbo spool, and general cruise characteristics. The upside is that you're a full 1mm down, and you'll have a good 1mm+ of gasket with an OEM gasket, or at least .4mm of gasket with a felpro. Either way you're going to be at least 1.5mm down from the head, which means you'll probably be far enough to be out of the dangerous detonation zone. So your "flat top" piston should have detonation characteristics more like a dish piston in a sense. If you were exactly flat with the deck I'd be worried, as you'd be right in the middle of where you don't want to be. Close enough to cause detonation proneness at low RPM but without the quench to suppress it.

If you have enough space to work with, then consider removing a front tire and getting the picker in from the side. This will allow you to get the car lower to the ground (many pickers have contact issues all over the place with the front suspension, doing this you just slide the legs in and slide out), giving you more vertical lift capability without having the engine contact the hoist. Also, a good leveler is a real patience gainer. You have to have LOTS of patience to do it with a bad one, let alone none at all. Also, I know it might be "duh" but leaving the radiator in makes this job a lesson in anger management. I've pulled motors in S130s and S30s and the S130 is quite a bit tighter than the S30, but it's totally doable, and without hurting paint if you've done it before and know the angles.

I know you just bought the head, but I'd personally pass on the P90 with the slugs down 1mm in the hole. Not that it'll be a "bad" combo, it's just not going to be using the quench area. So in essence you could just as easily run any other L head you wanted providing it reaches a compression ratio you're happy with for you application. If you just want the P90 for an easy turbo setup then sure, run it. I don't think it'll be "bad". Just don't be believing you're taking advantage of the chamber shape. The reason why the clearance has to be so tight can be seen on a large scale in your own home. If your bathroom is a small enough room with tight sealed windows then when you go to open the door you can feel the resistance as you open the door because of the air wanting to equalize. When you go to close the door you get the same thing. Close the door fast enough and you feel a resistance at the very end. At the very end air stops moving freely and you've started squishing the air into the bathroom. Until that air gap in the door gets fairly small the air moves however it wants. Get it very close to closed and all of the sudden the air becomes much more "solid", or more of a liquid than a gas. The same happens in your chamber. If that gap doesn't close down small enough the air doesn't get "pushed" and moved around very much, and that's the point. You have to remember that as you're compressing that air it's becoming much thicker in a sense, and thus the air is going to have much more resistance and start acting more and more like a fluid than a gas (realize I mean this in a conceptual sense for our minds, not a literal physics sense). To simplify it a bit, running a quench pad with a large clearance is like mixing your gas charge like jello with a spoon, but getting that tolerance tight is like hitting a balloon with a baseball bat. The level of effectiveness changes dramatically. Now, getting into semantics we can argue that compression level and stroke length, quench pad size, etc will all effect how close you really need to get to make an impact. Problem with all that though, is that we already know how built L motors have performed and we know that most builders are hunting for sub .3mm clearances.

If .20mm "isn't a big deal" when why would you have had them machined down a mere .3mm? In essence they're off the mark by more than 50% of what the job was for. I can understand they've been great so far, and that they really don't want to deal with parts they didn't sell. But at the end of the day if ANYONE ELSE had come in and paid the same price to get pistons shaved down and they did the same goof that customer should NOT be paying for that service until a correction has been sorted out. Shops have ate the cost of parts for much simpler mistakes...

For $500 you'll do fine, even if the motor needs some work. I'd go the car, ready to tow it if needed, and bring some basic tools. After giving the guy his money and he's happy and such, go to work. Put in a battery and get some starting fluid to spray into the intake. See if it'll fire at all with the fluid. Tony just covered this in another thread, but most issues can be fixed under and hour just by going through the FSM checklist of things to test regarding the EFI system. If you don't feel like spending the time out there in the field, I'd stop if starting fluid didn't get it coughing at all. If that's the case you've got something wrong with the spark which could be very basic, or slightly more complicated. Do some basic checks before giving up of course, but if it looks like it's stock and nothings out of place then I'd bet money it's a quick and easy fix. My local junkyards want more than $500 for a motor with harness, so it's a deal almost no matter what in my opinion. I've scored a L28ET for under $300, but those deals aren't too common. Whole donor car for $500? That's wonderful. I'd jump on it myself.

Considering where you started and what got you into zcars I'd say you're doing rather well. Rewiring from scratch is a daunting endeavor and I understand the pain involved. Rest assured, you seem to have your head on straight. I love that you're going with circuit breakers btw. I've wanted to so the same thing but have been looking for a more economical solution. I'll be following for sure. Keep it up.

I'd pick it up for.... ...hmm, $400 maybe. But I'd need to know a few more things. There might be some worthwhile parts in there, but as an engine I'd definitely not consider it a "ready to run" motor. I'd sooner pick up a bone stock L28ET out of a junkyard in an unknown condition than that motor. In the future, if someone can't name exactly what parts are there, then don't bother. If you can name the compression, but don't list the head, crank, rods, and pistons used then what the hell is the person listing the information for? I think the ONLY time I might buy a "built" engine from someone who didn't build it, is if the current owner was pulling the motor to put something else in. Like if someone bought a 240Z with a mild/hot L28 but wanted to go V8, well in that case even though they might not know squat about L motors it still might be something to consider. I'd still not pay full premium though. If they didn't build it, they can't expect to get half of what the builder put into it.

Well mike, I for one can't wait to see how you ruin the car further. Come'on EFI!!! Woohoo!

There's been plenty of people to run higher compression setups just fine. That said though, very few of them were new to building motors. It takes a good tune and a well built motor with the right provisions made. If you hang around some "other" Z car forums you might find people that think getting more than 200whp on a street driven NA L motor is next to impossible or just plain rare because "so and so" only got 175hp to the wheels with their "race prepped" motor.... While here we've got plenty of people in the 300hp club and higher. Loads of people reach 200hp and it just takes some careful work and lots of patience. As to the dilemma at hand... You have dish pistons, you want to stay on a lower budget. Keep them and put the N42 on. Then add a turbo down the road if you need more power. That's the path of least resistance.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/635763/1972-datsun-240z Around 220 whp if you have good afr's. Or almost double stock NA if you prefer to think of it that way. Really bad place to post this question though, btw.

Hmmm, where did my post in this thread go? Strange... If the turbo isn't stock then you definitely will have your work cut out trying to figure out what's stock and what isn't, as that will make EVERY difference in tuning the stock EFI. That said, IF by some miracle your engine is completely virgin other than the turbo and in good shape, then just get an intercooler, rising rate fuel pressure regulator, and manual boost controller and walk the PSI up on a dyno (so you can watch the AFR). 10psi should get you close to 200whp, and you can keep walking up the psi all the way to 250+whp as long as your RRFPR will give you enough fuel. The more you rely on that RRFPR though the stranger it's going to drive, even if all is running as it should. The stock EFI has serious limitations, but that said there's been quite a few people to reach 300whp on the stock ECU. It's doable but takes a lot of time and patience. All this info is readily available though and I've mentioned at least half of this in a thread that's still on the front page of this forum section....

Except those pictures I showed are finalized bodies which will be at the dealership in a mere 4-6 months. These cars ARE going to happen and the specs are fairly nailed down, which is why auto mags have been receiving test vehicles already for initial impressions. I agree with your statement however, it's just that this car has already been at the big auto shows for like 2+ years now and is finally coming down the pipe. Seems like Subaru did 100% of the engineering phase and that subaru will again be doing the work for the higher output version down the road. I'm betting that if there IS a "TRD" version it'll be a STI version with a TRD badge slapped on it. I'm not saying Toyota didn't do anything, as there's a lot more that goes into a vehicle than engineering. I'm sure that if Subaru had done this on their own it'd been just a 2 door WRX that was AWD and weighed 3000 pounds. And it would have looked funky to boot. In the end though, it's Subaru's engine, and they engineered the sucker, so my money is on STI designing the next ponied up version, even if it's a 300hp NA variant. You can bet either way though there will be aftermarket turbo kits within 6 months of release.

I wouldn't rule it out yet, since the 300hp rumors are more abundant than the it being NA rumors. The only way I could see Subaru hitting 300hp NA is if it's a flat 6, and I can't really see them doing that for this car. Yea, I'm thinking that I'd love to have one after the 2-4 year initial depreciation kick comes into play. If the STI version is another 2 years out I might be able to wait 6 to have one in my driveway.

I didn't find any easily found threads talking about these cars and kind of thought they were exactly the kind of cars we'd like to talk about around these parts. So here's the gist of the important stuff... Toyota and Subaru are teaming up to make a car and each will have their own version on sale with unique skin on a near-identical chassis and drivetrain similar to a Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky. Cars will be exclusively 2 door, and both look to be 4 seaters only, but in the sense that a Supra has 4 seats... First model introduced will be 200HP and estimated cost of $25k and by the sound of it they MEAN $25. Toyota is talking about a "base" price of just over 20k so 25k should be a true walk away price. Engine will be a brand new 2 liter flat 4 from Subaru. Transmission will be a RWD 6 speed manual or sequential auto. Hi performance models are already in the works before the car is debuted. Rumors suggest at least 300hp and carrying the STI label from Subaru. Best Part: Initial curb weights are just under 2700 pounds, which makes it one of the lightest sports cars around for the money. All in all I think they might be more "Z car" than the current 370Z. I just wish they'd never planned on having rear seats and saved weight. But even at 2700 pounds, if they come out with a 300hp version that doesn't gain too much weight, it'll most likely still come in around the price of a 370Z if not less, which basically makes it a killer of a car. It puts you at a power to weight somewhere between a mustang GT and a standard corvette, but with quite a bit less heft to lug around and at a lower price, which is saying something. Plus, compared to a lot of the stuff on the market I think they're both fairly good looking. So what does everyone else think? First they've heard of them, or just not excited?

I believe so, but you're getting into a really hot realm of the map on that thing by that point. I wouldn't expect to get those kind of numbers for extended periods of time without some serious heat management solution, even if it's just meth or water injection. Point being, the HX35 on the same motor would have kept intake temps a bit more controllable. I know the HX35 will flow enough to make 500whp in several different applications, and I don't think the HY is THAT much far behind, but you won't find nearly as many people making those numbers on them. They just getting too hot at that point. The same goes for the HX at 600whp. I've seen it done on some honda motors, but it's getting dicey at that point, just go with a larger compressor unless you like going to extreme cooling solutions.

Just keep in mind that if you're going to run E85 you'll need much larger injectors, almost double, for a given HP level. Also, remember that often quality matters more than quantity. You CAN run way larger than needed injectors IF they're good quality. I've seen 1500cc injectors that idle better than some 700cc injectors. The quality of the driver (ECU) matters too. Megasquirt can run 700cc injectors just fine if they're decent quality. I haven't seen over 1000cc run on MS so I can't attest to that, but I've seen some of the more high end ECU's run huge injectors like that just fine, while a cheaper piggy back ECU with cheap injectors and be a pain to get to idle right. I'd also make sure to get injectors with flow results. And rossman is right, I AM spoon feeding you, in hopes that you'll get past the high chair years and develop into a walking talking functioning car guy. I'm more willing to spoon feed people than others but it's definitely conditional and I choose my battles. Others aren't as obviously interested in real data and willing to listen. Keep a teachable mindset and you'll go a long way. And do lots of searching and reading! There's guys that spent months reading threads on here until starting their first thread.

I'd be looking for either the HX35 or HY35 if you want to go Holset. The HX would give you a bit more headroom to grow if you want to get crazy, but the HY will spool a litte bit faster but will become a flow hindrance at higher HP levels with a typical wastegate configuration. And since you probably want some numbers, I'd go with the HY for anything under 300hp, and HX for anything over 300hp. The HY will do 300hp just fine, it's just that you'll not have much room to grow, and with a turbo motor it's just too tempting to test the limits and go for more power, so why buy two turbos when you can just buy one? I'd estimate the PSI for 300hp with either of those turbos to be between 14-16psi, which should be safe on your motor if it's tuned well. The thing with tuning is that you have to take it in small chunks. Start with minimal boost and work your way up.

So in other words it's a perfect case of exactly was I saying before, owner error and upkeep are main causes of a motor not making it to 300k these days. Guy is lucky that's all that broke...

There in lies the problem. The 08 and + STI's are totally different animals than the 04-06, which are the only years I'd consider currently. I've driven STI's and WRX's and I can honestly say that nearly EVERYTHING about the STI should feel better than a WRX. The entire fit and finish is better. It should feel more nimble and communicative. It should be much more responsive and aggressive. The problem is though they've been packing on the pounds year after year, so much so that I'd take a '03 WRX over a 2010 STI. One thing about the STI is that they also feel more solid. The WRX rides noisier and feels more clunky all the way down to how the transmission shifts and feels. The STI just feels solid by comparison to me. Then you get into all the performance bonuses and it's just 100% better there too. But, that IS just me. And considering the price difference it's hard to justify unless you're going to really do something with it. I'm actually considering a 04-05 WRX wagon myself as it'd be a great haul crap around car. Could save me from buying a truck and be much more useful for certain trips to the mountains and such I take anyways. I rarely need the vertical space of a truck, so it kinda makes sense. The main downside is that putting an engine in the back of one will be a pain in the arse. But at $5-7k it's hard to complain for how much vehicle you get.