Ready to blow my brains out

[Tony D]

Its no wonder Tony has an aneurism when he reads these posts.

 

-BOV do not recirc into the manifold. The stock manifold has something to that effect, but its different as the stock L28et did not have a BOV. It uses a check valve at the #5 runner to bleed excess pressure off, but a BOV works a little different. You should be doing a lot of research on how to run a BOV before you proceed, or at least search for pictures of how some folks do it. You may be headed towards disaster if you continue down this path your on. But its your time and money.

Ray,

The stock BOV dumps into #4 / 5 intake runner area and works well without increased volume of piping associated with an inter cooler (if at elevated pressures.) it's function, as well as how it functions has been covered previously ad nauseam by yours truly. I believe the Nissanspeak for that valve was "vacuum control valve" and it's off-boost dumping into the plenum (like the BCDD) prevents massive spiking of vacuum in the plenum causing oil consumption issues and uncombistible air deprived conditions lowering HC spiking to the catalyst. Removing it, like removing the BCDD has shown increased oil consumption when driven similarly on vehicles I've tested.

 

Including the 1973 Maroon Roadster with the 82ZXT engine in it that has showed at the last few MSA events...which you can check, Ray...the AFM is mounted EXACTLY where I say, and there is NO harness extension required. Both Ian and I considered this a no-brainier due to the ease of repositioning. Apparently there are incidences of brain deprivation exceeding our wildest expectations as that is where I see a majority of them mounted.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Tony D

[OhBilly]

I do know that the best place for a bov is right before the throttle body. I've only owned one turbo car before in my life and only briefly. It discharged excess pressure to the atmosphere. Frankly I didn't want want the blow off woosh, I was trying to push it back into the motor, which I thought was protocol to eliminate the noise, I guess I am wrong.

 

If you are going to recirc your BOV, it should recirc back into your intake, as in pre-turbo.

[Gollum]

Click

http://bit.ly/12JuOJF

 

Found:

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i27/2778_8lo.jpg

[NewZed]

There's Ray's check valve...

 

There could be a better term for what the BOV actually does.  Doesn't seem like it really does much blowing off.  And there seem to be several ways to achieve the desired result.  "Blow-off valve" seems like an over-simplification and should probably not be used to describe anything.  Just a thought - ban the BOV.

[Tony D]

Just be advised the pittfalls removing the factory unit in lieu of something that functions quite differently and should be sized accordingly. "Dumping it back pre turbo" is a gross oversimplification of what the valve should do when vented that way!

 

The stock unit does it's job seamlessly and silently. As a properly engineered valve should do. The only real way to properly install what most people have nowadays and what should be properly termed "Compressor Bypass Valve" is about the only thing Mr. Corky Bell and I agree upon. BEGI made a great compressor bypass valve (AKA Today "BOV") and Corky's explanation of it's function in 'Maximum Boost' is about the only redeeming quality in the entire text! And that is what a pre-throttle plate valve is for, compressor bypass and overboost control on drop-throttle. Some turbos now have ELECTRIC ones built into the turbo casing. What about "proper venting" in that case? 

 

There IS a better term, it's just through ignorance and popular vernacular, it's been perverted into a basic explanation and oversimplification of what it actually should be designed to do.

 

It's why the Nissanspeak term is "Vacuum Control Valve" -- they found the spiking in the manifold and oil consumption/increased HC Emissions were more important, so this is how they managed to tackle both the issue of drop-throttle surge prevention and compressor speed decrease (blow off function) and preventing the manifold vacuum spike until the pneumatic control system could enact anti-stall and additional air to the engine by opening the AAC.

[Tony D]

If you are going to recirc your BOV, it should recirc back into your intake, as in pre-turbo.

 

Any reason you are saying this, other than that is what you read somewhere?

Any reason you name to alter it from the stock engineered location?

 

If you are going to tell someone how it 'should' be done, you should at least give a logical reason.

 

Now that I've laid out why you have to be careful with that position, why it's an oversimplification, and what the stock valve was engineered to do... Can you give a reason to eliminate the stock Vacuum Control Valve in lieu of the single-function "BOV"?

 

I have seen engineered systems that get several stock VCV/Check Valve/BOV's and put them in multiple cylinders. The action remains silent and seamless, and you don't get the oil consumption or HC Spikes from the engine as you do with an externally vented bypass valve. What is the solution to the original problem the Nissan Engineers addressed with their placement of the valve. You abandon their solution, yet the problem still exists, now without something to address it.

 

With the advent of the new BOV's on the VW Turbo Cars being available for around $35 new, the prospect of electronic bypasses and dumps to the manifold concurrently happening off a GPO from an aftermarket ECU (or maybe PCM Control) will soon make these Pneumatic Relics of the past just that: Nostalgic Trash that did what it could the best it could, with the technology available at the time.

 

The future is electrical operated valves, not pneumatic valves.

 

Best start learning PID programming now. Or simply claim "what I got 'works' fine!"

[Tony D]

Others elsewhere are quoting me on this as well:

 

http://www.zcar.com/forum/10-70-83-tech-discussion-forum/285058-more-boost-3.html

 

http://www.zcar.com/forum/10-70-83-tech-discussion-forum/316753-normal-part-hiss-4.html

 

Last page is where the quote is, maybe earlier there is this discussion in it's full length on what is on a turbo manifold and what it does...

Edited March 12, 2013 by Tony D

[OhBilly]

Any reason you are saying this, other than that is what you read somewhere?

Any reason you name to alter it from the stock engineered location?

 

If you are going to tell someone how it 'should' be done, you should at least give a logical reason.

 

I have read it somewhere, in fact I've read it pretty much everywhere. And believe it or not, you just posted a link above about people quoting you on it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not type this in your first link:

 

Tony D said (emphasis mine):

"Compressor Bypass Valve. Often referred to, and set up incorrectly as a "BOV" the compressor bypass valve is lifted open and provides a path around the turbocharger to the intake's throttle body so as to remove any parasitic forces on the compressor side of the turbosupercharger to aid in spooling. On lift throttle it will open, venting excess boost either to atmosphere,or back to the inlet of the turbosupercharger as well as operate the turbo at a given minimum flow rate through the compressor similar to a Pop-Off-Valve."

 

Alter it from the stock engineered location? He's not using the stock valve, nor the stock intake. If he were I doubt we would be having this conversation.

 

As far as giving logical reasons for something, I think I'll leave that up to you. I'm not sure why you are coming down on me for giving the guy reasonable advice, advice that you (and the rest of the automotive engineering world) presumably agree with since you've stated it as well.

 

You are very good at explaining complex subjects and to the right audience, that's all fine and dandy. But many people just don't have the time, money or gumption to get into it as you would like them to. Poor Ben here is just trying to figure out the basics and you are throwing flow theory and electrical engineering at him. Ridiculing him for not understanding it like you isn't helping him out, regardless of what you'd like to believe.

 

Help the guy to get his car going so he can drive the damn thing.

Edited March 12, 2013 by OhBilly

[BlackdogNY]

Ben's Z, good for you.  Hope you get the car running. 

I personally like to read most of Tony's posts for its general, solid info.  The 'they will only learn if the teacher belittles them' is BS.

Either help or keep it to yourself.

[NewZed]

Recent posters are ignoring or unaware of the history of Ben's Z's project.  If you don't consider his other threads it does seem like Tony D just walked in to the party and started acting like an ass.  But Ben's Z's project is a series of errors and ignored advice.  He seems more focused on venting on the forum than actually doing things right.  It's almost like he goes out in to the garage to screw something up so that he can come here and bitch about the injustice of the world. 

 

You do have to give him credit though, for continuously coming back to expose his lack of skills, and for more of the resulting verbal abuse.  It's certainly entertaining and I'm looking forward to future threads about the blown engine/turbo/transmission or whatever, once he gets it running, in the the next year or two.

[cgsheen]

[Gollum]

Recent posters are ignoring or unaware of the history of Ben's Z's project.  If you don't consider his other threads it does seem like Tony D just walked in to the party and started acting like an ass.  But Ben's Z's project is a series of errors and ignored advice.  He seems more focused on venting on the forum than actually doing things right.  It's almost like he goes out in to the garage to screw something up so that he can come here and bitch about the injustice of the world. 

 

You do have to give him credit though, for continuously coming back to expose his lack of skills, and for more of the resulting verbal abuse.  It's certainly entertaining and I'm looking forward to future threads about the blown engine/turbo/transmission or whatever, once he gets it running, in the the next year or two.

 

And the big difference between this situation and someone like Big Phil is that big phil understands how little he knows and understands that he's flying by the seat of his pants 90% of the time and is okay with that. Phil has blown turbos, transmissions, and engines, and still keeps at it, learning as he goes.

 

There's nothing "wrong" with that approach, but it's certainly the more expensive route.

 

There's quite a few people I know who "cut their teeth" working on cars at the local junior college. Take an auto class, use your car as your subject, and you've got eyes checking your work, making sure you're doing things right. You also get access to a lot of tools you wouldn't otherwise get. I've told people many times that THIS is the way to go to get your feet wet working on your own project. Otherwise you're either going to spend the same money or more fixing mistakes, or you'll be spending the countless hours learning on your own BEFORE assembling parts.

 

I don't mean any of this in disrespect to Ben. I wish him and his project the best. I don't condone Tony being an ass at times, but I also know that you just need to get some thick skin around him to take from him what you can. I've been offended at times to things he's said to me, but I got over it and learned to read things as though it was coming from an older brother who slaps you upside the head when you do something stupid FOR YOUR BENEFIT. 

[Tony D]

Recent posters are ignoring or unaware of the history of Ben's Z's project. If you don't consider his other threads it does seem like Tony D just walked in to the party and started acting like an ass. But Ben's Z's project is a series of errors and ignored advice. He seems more focused on venting on the forum than actually doing things right. It's almost like he goes out in to the garage to screw something up so that he can come here and bitch about the injustice of the world.

 

You do have to give him credit though, for continuously coming back to expose his lack of skills, and for more of the resulting verbal abuse. It's certainly entertaining and I'm looking forward to future threads about the blown engine/turbo/transmission or whatever, once he gets it running, in the the next year or two.

Thanks, the only person ridiculed was the guy coming in authoritatively stating, then misquoting out of context prior posts from elsewhere. (OhBilly) he stated a basic misinformation. Had he actually READ what I wrote it was CLEAR that a VCV or a BOV have engineering premises for each of them, and that a COMPRESSOR BYPASS VALVE is really a better method to use, and having a VCV DOES NOT PRECLUDE HAVING EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO. They are NOT interchangeable terms (if you didn't pick that up in the links....don't know what to tell ya: horse:water (?!?) A Compressor Bypass Valve IS NOT "just" a BOV-- it's a dual purpose device (uh, duh, hence the different name...this is all in the linked posts if you READ them...) the question was politely posed, and went unanswered: you eliminate the VCV, what do you do to solve the engineering-based reasons for employing that solution over a dumb BOV which addresses only one of the three original functions? This ones take some thought...not much, but apparently more than many stone-throwers are willing to put forth. As was stated: if you want to parrot a solution, be ready to defend it if there are valid reasons for questioning the response. In many rural communities, incest is accepted. Doesn't suddenly make it right from a geneticists standpoint. People cut four coils off their springs and run around on stock shocks, too...

Just because a lot of people do it, doesn't make it right from a technical standpoint. Why succumb to the ricer "they're all dooin' it" mentality. Try to put some thought into it, enrich your mind as to the function of your vehicle and its subsystems. Enrich yourself. Why settle for "he did Tim so I will too"?

 

As was stated, this ain't Automotive 101. If you post idiotic crap, expect to be called on it.

 

I responded to RAY ANDERSONS POST. As I stated some time ago, the OP was going to be rife with dumbarse questions for no other reason than spooning sloth, and that for my own sanity I've put him on "ignore"---curiously though it becomes clear he has not returned the courtesy, and selectively viewing what has been recently said while I make absolutely NO REFERENCE WHATSOEVER TO HIM AT ALL he chooses to become personal and make personal attacks which are uncalled for, and which reveal his mental capacity.

 

Nobody has to listen to my advice. I've told you how to automatically take me out of ever reading my posts again. Grow a set, while signed in, click in the upper right corner of the screen, click the triangle next to your screen name, click on "manage ignore prefs" and ENTER MY SCREEN NAME SO YOU WILL NEVER SEE MY POSTS, IM, SIGNATURE, NOTHING, NAND, ZILCH, ZIPPO!

 

If you're too stupid to follow those simple rules, and continue to bitch about what I post, then excuse me if I see you as a Whitney little bitch who obsesses about sand in her crack, yet refuses to get up and go take a shower! The remedy is there Barney Purple Dinosaur Lovers: USE IT AND QUIT YOUR IDLE BITCHFEST!

Edited March 13, 2013 by Tony D

[Tony D]

And for the record I never viewed Big Phil as a whiner. Dude took the car, whipped it into shape and got to to go.

 

Never a woe is me whine-a-thon or snotty comment when he was frustrated.

 

Incessant talking on videos, sure. Guy likes to hear himself talk. Nobody put a gun to my head to click the link. I'm a big boy, I guess I can endure Phil's talking and watch his video. To turn it off.

 

I guess adults can do that. Now, to manage my ignore prefs and add some people to the list...

Edited March 13, 2013 by Tony D

[OhBilly]

Thanks, the only person ridiculed was the guy coming in authoritatively stating, then misquoting out of context prior posts from elsewhere. (OhBilly) he stated a basic misinformation. Had he actually READ what I wrote it was CLEAR that a VCV or a BOV have engineering premises for each of them, and that a COMPRESSOR BYPASS VALVE is really a better method to use, and having a VCV DOES NOT PRECLUDE HAVING EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO.

 

What, you want me to call it a compressor bypass valve (CBV) instead of a BOV because of how it is vented? Fine. I use the term BOV because that is what the majority of "car guys" call them. Whether it is vented to atmosphere or somewhere else, most people still call it a BOV.

 

Second, the OP is not using a turbo intake manifold, he's using an N42. He does not have a stock VCV, he has (presumably) some sort of aftermarket BOV/CBV. He doesn't want to vent it to atmosphere, so where should he vent it? Since it's metered air, how about venting it back somewhere between the AFM and turbo inlet? Seems reasonable to me, and based upon reading many posts about this same subject (many of them written by you), this seems to be the proper way to set up an AFTERMARKET BOV/CBV. I'm not sure how this is spreading misinformation. And I did not quote you out of context. The context was about how to properly set up his BOV. How is that out of context to your elsewhere post?

 

Sure, the stock VCV works well, with all those benefits you've told us about, and if he had it, yes, he should keep the stock system as is. But he doesn't have that stuff!

 

If I am giving him bad advice on how to set up an aftermarket BOV/CBV for use with his N42 intake, what should he do instead?

 

** Edited for bad grammar **

Edited March 13, 2013 by OhBilly

[rayaapp2]

Tony, You spelled my last name wrong... oh well! ROFL

 

In my own defense I did declare that the "closest" thing to a BOV is that check valve. I only half understood how that thing interacted with the rest of the system before this post though. I knew it was similar to a BOV but not the same(mostly guessing based on its orifice size).

 

Ive never tried to duplicate that valve. In all my swaps Ive left it in place and used nothing else or added a BOV.

 

 

The biggest issue that continues on is Ben Z's problem. He continues to post having learned little to nothing about what he is working with relying on everyone else to feed him the answers to his problems rather than learn about what he is working with or get any kind of basic understanding(core concept) first. And you should have some core concept of what you have and how it works before you start modifying it. Having little knowledge on the subject I wouldn't take a jet turbine apart and attempt to modify it. It would be an epic fail. What we have here is a classic failure of technician rule #1:

 

1. Engage brain before hands. Also known as "Think about what you are about to do before you do it!". This rule has a broad meaning and is followed by almost every good technician whether they know the rule or not.

 

This rule has been broken time and time again by Ben. Ill stay tuned to see his future posts. I have to say though thanks to this post I have a little more understanding of that check valve(VCV are we calling it?).

Edited March 14, 2013 by rayaapp2

[Tony D]

Someone called it that, it's referenced in the prior posts.

 

"Mr. Anderson" --- You know, Neo? That's always what comes to mind when your last name comes up...

 

Though, in my defense reading this today at work...I realize Apple Autocorrect is hammering my intent and spellings so that MAY have been what happened as I know you are 'en' same as old Pedo Bob EricksEN which he was quite particular about as Robert AndersON was a murderer.... and THAT simply wasn't acceptable in his mind! (seriously, search obits in Nashville TN for a Robert EricksEN who was knifed to death.... that's the guy who was particular about how his name was spelled, and that was the reason he gave for it!)

 

But I digress.

 

The "Ignore" function is powerful, and I like using it. My criteria for inclusion on the list gets lower daily I guess. I don't need the static. As it is I deal with enough people off-forum now with projects who feel the same. It's just not worth discussing stuff in the Barney World any more. A Thick Skin is good, but it gets old having to deal with the yappy terriers and chihuahuas of the Interwebs. At some point you just start stomping on them to keep the background noise down.

 

Hence my love of "Manage Ignore Prefs!"

 

I only wish rather than bitch about me, they would simply "IGNORE" and never be bothered with my ignorance ever again. It works for EVERYBODY including the larger population of the board!

 

(Edit) Actually, I just found this feature exists at ZCar.Com as well! OH BLISSFUL DAY!!!! The days of irritating idiots too stupid to read a post and comprehend a 10RGL is coming to an end! Oh happy, happy day!!! No more parrots who read but don't comprehend! Life is really looking up recently...how I went so long without knowing these features existed astounds me! Indeed, they are lifesavers...and shoud be explicitly pointed out in forum introductions! Then again, some people can't handle the thought that the Internet does allow people to squelch their stupidity... This ignore feature does just that! Woot!

Edited March 14, 2013 by Tony D

[OhBilly]

I only wish rather than bitch about me, they would simply "IGNORE" and never be bothered with my ignorance ever again. It works for EVERYBODY including the larger population of the board!

The only reason I am bitching at you is because you falsely accused me of presenting misinformation. I have restated my case and have backed it up with facts, even using information and advice you have given yourself dozens, if not hundreds of times. You haven't bothered to explain why you think the information I gave is bogus, likely because it isn't and you would have to contradict yourself if you did. Instead you just yammer on about how annoying we are and refuse to acknowledge that you have falsely accused me of giving out lame advice.

 

You speak about being an adult but your actions are more in line with that of a 4th grade playground bully trying to get attention. Mature adults are willing to admit when they are wrong and they certainly don't hide behind an "IGNORE" wall so they don't have to deal with reality smacking them in the face.

 

Have fun hiding from the grownups!

 

** EDIT: I see now you've gone back and edited your post #33 to haphazardly refute what I wrote in #35 after the fact. Classy!

Edited March 14, 2013 by OhBilly