New Cam and Rockers - odd looking at 500+ miles

[jeffp]

You know, sometimes it is better not to listen to all of the internet talk. This has been a topic of discussion time and time again. The Schnider cams are not a good buy, due to the metal and how it was hardened. Nitrating a cam is fine, but did you have the hardness tested after the procedure? For your information. when you harden two contact pieces of metal, generally speaking, one piece of metal is hardened to say 45Rc the second piece of metal hardened to 50Rc. ALWAYS and forever and a day, when you make two contact parts hard, you make the (WEAR PART) 5Rc softer then the other part, if NOT you WILL wear out one of the parts QUICKLY! Looks like to me the cam was still to soft, the rocker pads looked good, a little worn due to the soft metal coming off of the cam, but for the most part they looked good.

WHY, do some of you try to defy what is already known about some products for this engine. Is is that so you can say they were wrong? Get a NISSAN CAN out of an old engine! Send that cam to ISKY CAMS and tell Ron Jeff Priddy sent you. Have ISKY grind the cam you want FROM A NISSAN OEM CAM! If you can find a RACER Brown cam USE THAT, it is a good billet. Or call JWT and talk to Clark and tell him what you want, They have ALL of the old Racer Brown stock.

You guys are more then welcome to try NEW things, but it is going to more then likely cost you, and a repair and replacement of the cam and rockers. You mentioned you had SINGLE springs with a .550 lift cam, if what I read was correct. ONLY SUNBELT that I know of runs the SINGLE spring configuration on their cams, I think from memory the seat pressure is about 75-80psi on the seat. Have fun with RPM's over 7K.  

Talk to Dave Robello, he did a head for me $700.00 I provided the cam blank (stock Nissan Cam) and rockers. He did all of the rest, that head after being torn down three times that I know of, is STILL running on Bernards engine, NO PROBLEMS!

This stuff is not rocket science guys, go with the people who have BLAZED the trail for you and forget about all the new cool stuff, well unless you are running a roller rocker and cam setup, oops, disregard that last comment LOL.

Anyway, I am sorry to hear about your problem. That can be an expensive repair.

And YES prime the engine before you try to start it, JUST LIKE A SB CHEVY TONY, has worked EVERY time for me, well except for the oil all over your hand when you pull the pump down to get the drive gear installed after you prime the engine, and don't let the engine sit afert the priming procedure. Start the engine imediately after you have primed, and the oil pump will take right off while cranking the engine. Oil spray bars, in my opinion are a requirement for a high lift cam. True they don't spray right at the lobe on the correct side, but that really is not a problem when the engine is running. Also, you mentioned the oil holes in the cam, Don't even think about drilling a oil hole on the lobe where the ramp starts. The hole was placed right where it needs to be. If you do drill for oiling on the beginning ramp, on the toe, or as the lobe rotates after the toe on the closing side of the lobe, I will GUARANTEE you WILL see a wear pattern on the rocker pad right where the new oil hole is located on the lobe. You need to oil on the HEEL of the lobe, you know whaer there is valve lash. As hard as it may seen to believe, that new small oil hole in the incorrect place will act like a SCRAPER on the rocker pad. I have a good story about this procedure that was recommended to me for crank journals from a hotrod book, needless to say when I tore the engine down I noted the scraping on the rod and main bearings, a little different situation, but the results WILL be the same.

anyway.

[inline6]

A few things to point out in relation to what you said:

 

You know, sometimes it is better not to listen to all of the internet talk.

 

Yes, I try to verify info from more than one "good source" before I believe it whenever possible.  Anyone who has spent a lot of time on the hybridz site or others for that matter can discern who those people generally are.  

 

The Schnider cams are not a good buy, due to the metal and how it was hardened.

 

This is still debatable, as many have had and continue to have success with Schneider cams.   The first cam I bought for my car, which I never installed was probably a Schneider - I bought it off of someone on eBay.  It was made from a CWC cam blank.  I discovered all the discussion about those blanks (many cam grinders use them - not just Schneider) after purchasing it but before I put it in the head.  I decided to send that cam off to Comp Cams for nitriding as a precautionary measure - some insurance for not having a problem, if you will.  That cam had other issues, and I ended up not using it.  Incidentally, I don't think anyone (Schneider, Isky, Sunbelt, etc.) is hardening these l-series cams.  I think they just grind/re-grind, and then parkerize.  

 

Looks like to me the cam was still to soft, the rocker pads looked good, a little worn due to the soft metal coming off of the cam, but for the most part they looked good.

 

A cam that has gone through an ion nitriding process such as mine will have a harder surface than one that has not.  So, my cam isn't too soft.  The problem is elsewhere.

 

You guys are more then welcome to try NEW things, but it is going to more then likely cost you, and a repair and replacement of the cam and rockers. You mentioned you had SINGLE springs with a .550 lift cam, if what I read was correct. ONLY SUNBELT that I know of runs the SINGLE spring configuration on their cams, I think from memory the seat pressure is about 75-80psi on the seat. Have fun with RPM's over 7K.

 

Yes, I agree - Sunbelt is also the only one I know running a single spring configuration.  My cam is a Sunbelt cam.  The valve springs are Sunbelt as well.  Seat pressure at installed height according to the supplied info is supposed to be 54 lbf.  As installed in my car, it came out to 56 lbf.  Red line on the valve train is 7700 RPM - I am running titanium retainers. 

 

This stuff is not rocket science guys, go with the people who have BLAZED the trail for you and forget about all the new cool stuff,

 

I really don't consider what Sunbelt did to be new at this point.  As far as I can tell, this cam and spring setup was developed many years ago (I can find mention of their cam development in the forums on hybridz from 2005) and it has been proven.  They may not have been one of the original trail blazers but they have a good reputation - I base this on what I can see from the previously mentioned "good sources" of information on these forums saying nothing but good things about them, and, I don't know if he is still racing a 240z, but I think they were the engine builders for the multi-national title winning Greg Ira?    

 

Also, you mentioned the oil holes in the cam, Don't even think about drilling a oil hole on the lobe where the ramp starts. The hole was placed right where it needs to be.

 

Some of the holes are not where they should be - period.  Long story, but I'll make it short.  Had a 490/290 in a Datsun 510.  It was put together by Malvern racing.  The springs were Nissan Comp.  I ran it for a short period of time and had no issues, but coming back from college late one night, I spend some extended amount of time at high rpm and I wiped one lobe and one rocker due to lack of lubrication.  The engine builder for Malvern Racing took the cam to his varsol tank and pushed fluid through it to watch the flow.  The lobe that wiped happened to have its oil hole on the trailing side of the lobe, just after the closing ramp - basically 180 degrees away from the best place for it.  With the new cam (same grind) we made one change only.  Using that existing hole as a pilot, he drilled all the way through it to the other side, so a hole would be in front of the opening ramp.  I never had another problem and I drove the hell out of that 510..  

 

I do understand the concept of doing what has worked... following the recommendations of experts who know what works and what doesn't.  I now believe the nitriding of the Sunbelt cam was a mistake, one that happened because I was hard headed.  Following are direct quotes from emails with Sunbelt back in late 2009 when I was working with them to get the cam:

 

"The cam blanks used by your cam grinder have never been "CWC" blanks.  Though Kinetic has tried Nitriding and Parkerizing in the past, the fine polish finish on the lobes has worked best for lobe durability. I asked Jim to confirm the cam grinder used the same came blank (Estas) as usual."

 

And my response:

"...as it stands now, I would feel more comfortable with a Nitride treatment, but I don't want to ruin the fine finish on the lobes if that is beneficial.  You guys are the experts, just tell me which way I should go.  The couple week turn around won't be a problem for me because the car is down for the winter. How should we proceed?"

 

And finally:

"I spoke to our cam guy about the Ion Nitride process that they use and he says the finish is a lot better than the old nitride process..."  

 

and

 

" talked to Jim, go ahead and send us the cam and we'll get it nitrided. He said he really doesn't think it's necessary but he understands the peace of mind thing."

 

So, my recommendation to those who read through this later is this:

1. If you are considering nitriding your L-series cam, don't.  It isn't necessary and may cause you the problem I encountered.

You must get good lubrication to your L-series cam before the initial start of a new/worked on engine.  Do whatever it takes. Edited June 29, 2013 by inline6

[inline6]

Checked with Sunbelt about a replacement cam.  They are "no longer sourcing these cams".  I pulled out my paperwork and see that the cam was manufactured by Integral Cams, who have since gone out of business.  Found a post online that said http://www.megacyclecams.com bought all the cam designs.  I guess I'll give them a call on Monday, but I was thinking, I have the old cam and some pretty good documentation on it...  Would it be possible to send it off to someone and get back an identical replacement?

 

Garrett

[NewZed]

Also, you mentioned the oil holes in the cam, Don't even think about drilling a oil hole on the lobe where the ramp starts. The hole was placed right where it needs to be.

Saw this comment and remembered being surprised about the holes in my factory "F" cam.  Nissan cams have their holes in a wide range of locations.

 

 Looks like "anywhere but a wear surface" was the Nissan spec.  They might have been cutting it close for manufacturing savings too, some seem to be on the start of the ramp.  Appears to be sets of three holes on the drilling machine for the ends, and ones and twos for the remaining six in the middle.

 

Just one of those interesting realities.

[inline6]

Saw this comment and remembered being surprised about the holes in my factory "F" cam.  Nissan cams have their holes in a wide range of locations.

 

 Looks like "anywhere but a wear surface" was the Nissan spec.  They might have been cutting it close for manufacturing savings too, some seem to be on the start of the ramp.  Appears to be sets of three holes on the drilling machine for the ends, and ones and twos for the remaining six in the middle.

 

Just one of those interesting realities.

 

Indeed.  It clearly didn't matter for the stock valve train, but it becomes an issue at some point with higher lift cams, higher lb valve springs, etc.

[Tony D]

I never liked all the hassle to drop the pump after priming. It seems to defeat the purpose. A SBC you DO NOT drop the pump afterwards, hence it making sense to do that way. But "priming" then 'breaking the suction side open" kind of defeats the purpose IMO.

 

A pressure pot of filtered oil to fill the engine through the oil sender point seems to work fine for me, no breaking of the suction, and immediate fire-up possible if you have a check-valve in the feed line from your pressure pot.

 

There is a Japanese Source for blanks, with octagon turning lug on it. I have not quite gotten to the source of these new "JAPAN" blanks, but am working on it.

[inline6]

As I said, Kinetic is no longer sourcing these cams.  Did some searching...  Found the paperwork that came with the cam.  The cam manufacturer was Integral Cams.  The are no longer in business.  However, I found online that Megacycle Cams bought all of their "masters" - this means they should have what they need to make me another one.  Called Megacycle today, and they confirmed this.  So, now I'm going to pull the cam out of the head and send both that cam and a stock cam to them along with all the documentation I have on the "z-car l-series datsun E30 race cam #2" as it is named.  I'd like to get another cam made from an Estas core, but might get a regrind from the stock cam.  We'll see.  

Edited July 2, 2013 by inline6

[Leon]

Regrind from the stock cam is the way to go, due to the matching wear surfaces.

[inline6]

Just a little update...

 

The two people I've talked to at MegacycleCams seem to be really knowledgeable.  Both were familiar with Estas blanks.  They told me that I shouldn't have nitrided the Estas blank because they are "chill cast" as is, which makes them harder than other cam blanks.  We discussed how I came to nitride that cam.  We talked about CWC blanks which they said are definitely "softer".  Additionally, we discussed the oil I am using - Mobile One.  They said that Mobile One is a poor choice for my application - "a rubbing surface rocker".  In fact, they said they see more cam failures from use of Mobile One than any other oil, but I'm betting a lot of that has to do with it's percent of market share - it clearly has a large part of the full synthetic market.  They brought up the lack of Zinc in modern oils being a problem especially in my application and basically, to keep it simple, said I should use RedLine or Motul... though they mentioned a couple of other oils that are also good for rubbing surface rocker applications.  

 

Unfortunately, they don't have a 100% of the masters from Integral Cams - they don't have the one for my cam.  They are in contact with the former owner of that business and believe they can get the cam profile info - the design specifications from him in the next week or two.  They plan on making a new master.  This should be good news for anyone that would like to have this "Kinetic Sunbelt" cam grind.  

 

They talked about spray welding on the lobes to create the hardest lobe possible, but I don't want to go into uncharted territory again.  I told them that I just want them to use an Estas blank, and I'll forego the nitriding this time.  Time will tell if they can make it happen for me.

 

Additionally, I believe I have tracked down the valve springs that are used with the cam.  "1W901" was on the Kinetic Sunbelt invoice.  A little searching on the internet brought me to this Nissan part number: 

13203-1W901

 

Looks like my springs may be outer valve springs from what looks to be like several different VG engines.  They are $4.89 each at NissanPartsZone.com.  I will check that out further at some point down the road, probably by buying one and checking to see if the specs on it match what we put in my engine.

 

G

[DatRat]

Garrett,

 

Your valve spring search sounds about right.  If you search Jim Wolf Camshafts, you will notice they sell a set of single valve springs for the L6 motor.  The set is also listed for VG engines.

[inline6]

Megacycle found that they had the master for my cam all along.  New cam has been manufactured and is in route to me.  

[Xnke]

How did you go about obtaining the Estas cam blank? Are they readily available?

[inline6]

Megacycle was able to source it.  They initially said they would have to try to track one down and in a conversation weeks later (they were waiting for info from the guy that used to run Integral Cams to locate the master), said they had a few on hand.  

 

Oil lubrication hole location was discussed in this thread earlier.  Just wanted to mention that I asked Megacycle to drill them in more optimal locations, but the cam blank came with those already drilled.  

[inline6]

The new cam came in.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oil holes are in interesting locations...  Many are in close proximity to the center of the base circle.  Some are closer to the opening ramp.  And 2 and 11 are just after the closing ramp.  Sheesh.  Can no one get that right?

 

Was going to work on installing it tonight, but unfortunately there is no rear oil galley plug.  Going to have to take it to a machine shop to get it drilled and tapped for a 3/8" NPT.  There are a couple of Datsun shops around this area (north Atlanta), right?  

 

Garrett

[inline6]

Was reading the forums about running both internal oiling and the stock cam spray bar and I see that there is discussion about opening up the restrictor in the top of the block to .100" as well as running the turbo oil pump.  I am running the pump, but I think the restrictor is stock sized.  Could that be part of my problem?  I am just now installing a replacement cam... and don't want to fire it up only to experience the same problem.

 

Other things I will be changing is, I am running Redline Racing oil instead of Mobile One. This was per the recommendation of Megacycle Cams.  

 

Garrett

Edited September 4, 2013 by inline6

[NewZed]

Honsowetz talks about enlarging the oil jet to 0.125" on page 15 of his "How to Modify..." book.  Says it will help with a high profile cam, but should only be done if it won't deprive the bottom end oil supply.  Doesn't really say how to tell if the bottom end supply is affected though.

[madkaw]

I would not run both spray bar and internal oiling unless you can verify visually that both systems are being effective. I did my own experiment years ago and could NOT get both to work . My block orifice was enlarged - but I visually saw that the spray bar was ineffective because the oil didn't reach the pad. I used a drill to drive my oil pump. I'm not saying it can't be done or my experiment proved absolute, but why complicate things.

I decided to stick with internal oiling on my engine.

[Lazeum]

I'm running both oil systems (internal + spray bar) with turbo pump & restrictor enlarged to 0.120.

Results are good so far but I'm unable to really check efficiency of both systems. I had also premature cam wear before so I'd rather get something overkill.

 

To enlarge oil restrictor, I had to pull it out to replace it with new unit (made by Braap). That's a messy job: I tapped it, inserted a bolt with a nut to pull it out. I've put burrs all over the place inside oil galleries. So the only time to do the job this way would be during full rebuild. You can also drill it but outcome would be the same; burrs everywhere.

You can try to remove the restrictor without tapping it & then drill it but it could be challenging. Not sure it is worth the hassle.

[madkaw]

If you are unable to verify how can results be good ??

[Lazeum]

Engine hasn't blown up

It is fully lubed & cam looks perfect after 1500mi.

 

What I cannot tell is if results are good because of twin lube system. What I'm saying is I cannot compare nor verify full efficiency of every individual lube solution versus the other.