Maintaining brakes DURING a race.

[RebekahsZ]

As I increase the number and variety of events I do I am learning the hard way that I need a pit crew, but really I'm it. Since I wrecked my brakes at a track event, it has taken me WAY too long to get them back in order. I'm sure I wouldn't have wrecked them if I had taken more breaks instead of beating the old girl to death. I am planning to get the current system back at least to stock level of performance and keep the car in drag/autocross events until winter and will likely do a AZC Wilwood conversion while it is cold out, then get back to beating on it hard. This thread is about MAINTAINING brakes in a high performance environment. I hope for a discussion of what brakes are EASY TO MAINTAIN. And MAINTENANCE TIPS for making it easier to work on them at trackside. For example, does anybody have a hook in their fender for supporting the caliper when it is off the bracket so it doesnt hang by the hose? Which brake brands allow the fastest pad changes? How do you deal with changing pads or rotors when you have no chance to bed the brakes and you get right back on the track? Any special tools? I'm running Hoosiers and a V8, so no matter what brakes I have-they will need maintenance during a track weekend and I want to learn to prevent failures instead of terminating early and bringing home a broken car.

Edited June 9, 2013 by RebekahsZ

[fhptom]

I learned the hard way also. Trying to run a stock setup in a race car. Before all you stock spec ITS guys chew me out, I know you have to run that configuration, but most ITS guys will tell you their brakes need checking and servicing after every race if not during a race weekend itself. I found happiness once I completed my setup with a complete Wilwood system, m/c's, calipers, bias adjuster, and vented rotors. For extra cooling I also use cooling ducts. Replace all rubber hoses with stainless braided hoses.

If you are not at that point many people either do a set number of laps during a track event and then come in for a cool off period or if you start to lose them during a race you can do a slower lap or abuse your motor and drivetrain to slow you down more for a lap also. Remember Braking 101 - Brake Hard and Brake Late. Do not ride the brakes into a corner like you do on the road.

 

If you run a stock setup try track specific pads you put in before you go to the track and a good fluid. Change pads back to your street pads once you get home. You can do a break in at home and have those for your spares ready to go if you need to switch out at the track.

[LanceVance]

Does anybody have a hook in their fender for supporting the caliper when it is off the bracket so it doesnt hang by the hose?

Wish I had more to add, but I remember seeing someone use a small bungee cord (the kind with hooks on either end) to hang their caliper from the spring while changing rotors. This is probably cheaper, faster and simpler than adding anything to the car, and should work just as well.

 

What kind of ducting (if any) are you running to prolong your brake's life? I've seen various ways of cooling calipers, from small air guides directed at the caliper, to heat sinks that go sandwiched in with the pad. Have you considered anything like that?

 

 

Edited June 9, 2013 by LanceVance

[beermanpete]

We are getting good results using the Raybestos ST-43 pads in front with stock calipers and rotors. They will survive operating temps that melt the Porterfield R4 pads. We are using ATE Super Blue brake fluid. The brake fluid did boil once when we were still using the rear drums and Porterfield pads in front.

 

We gave up on the rear drum brakes and converted to disk. With the drum brakes we could not get them to contribute significantly to the braking which caused the fronts to overheat. Now that the rear brakes are working the fronts runs much cooler. At the last event (time trial) the brakes barely got hot enough to stop squealing (front and rear). With the Raybestos pad in front and Porterfield R4 pads in the rear the pad wear is minimal. We had 2 drivers all weekend and the pads barely look worn.

[duragg]

I've really been delighted with the S12W and 280ZX setup since I went to Race pads.  They are noisy and squeel... like all the cool race cars do 

 

I take time to cool down,  easy on brakes and do not ever ride them at a stop.

We had one Red Flag during an event and I had to stop (hot) on a hill and only option was to set e-brake.  Pads glued to rotor and nearly locked up on the recover to pit lap.

 

NEVER again will I use any caliper that doesn't involve 2 pins for removal of the pads.  So frikkin easy. 

2 pins, swap pads, scuff rotor and go. 

 

Routing 3" dryer vent has made a huge difference on temps at the wheel hub. Difference between burning hand and just warm to touch.

 

Tj

[RebekahsZ]

Definitely gonna duct or divert to rotor definitely gonna be more considerate with breaks and shorter sessions-great pictures! Will use track pads when i go to track. Thanks for the pictures. Keeping on the maintenance theme: tell me HOW you scuff (rotor or pads)? Do you scuff a new set? Are Wilwood pads easy to change? With the top hat design, do you have to remove the front hub from the spindle to change rotors? How much grooving do you allow on your rotors-how do you know when they are DONE? Do you turn them or just replace them?

[Mikelly]

With every single car I've tracked, the biggest issue is keeping the fluid and pads happy. Captain Obvious, I know.  Brake cooling ducts for the front brakes are mandatory.  Appropriate TRACK PADS are mandatory.  Being able to adjust the bias front to rear, I think is mandatory as well.  Here is my "current" setup... I'm using a Wilwood two piece rotor that will eventually get sent to Coleman to be copied or modified.  I am currently using 93-2003 Mustang Cobra Calipers on all corners.  I do not use an Ebrake and don't understand everyone's desire to have one.  My car doesn't lock the brakes if the tires are hot.  My brake balance is decent and I don't have to touch the bias lever much but so far I haven't had enough consistant laps to wear pads.  That said, I'm a big fan of the bite the HAWK BLACK pads are providing when I'm at speed.  The master Cylinder is from a 1979-81ZX model and the booster is a stock reman unit. 

 

Keith the other critical issue is learning to drive the car properly so you don't use up your brakes.  Learn to brake more consistantly, providing a gradual amount of pressure evenly and then get onto the gas pedal as smoothly and quickly as possible.  Speed Secrets has a great section on this and I'd recommend getting the book if you don't have it.  I found out the hard way cracking rotors on corvettes, and spreading calipers.  Your ability to use less brake, and less abrupt brake will translate into a happier brake system.  This may not jibe with what others do, but it works for me.  Hope it helps you!

[JMortensen]

If you're going to try and do more track days before you do the brake upgrade, you might look into this. It requires quite a bit of plumbing, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to have on a big brake system either.

 

http://www.dpiracingproducts.com/dpi-sure-stop-i/

[Mikelly]

...Or just duct the brake rotors with cool air up front.  I bought a kit like this online from a vendor blowing them out on ebay and I want to say I paid $150 for them.  You can trim to fit the backing plates and plumb into your airdam as you like.

 

Mike

[randy 77zt]

I have never had to swap parts in the middle of a track day.I have had to bleed brakes to get rid of boiled fluid/long pedal condition.You can predict the wear rate by starting with new parts and checking them during the day.If I had to wrench at all during a track day I felt that my car was not prepared correctly before it was put on the trailer.I worked as an auto technician for a living-working on weekends and sweating making the next session was not part of the plan.Beermanpete sounds like he has a good low buck set up.

[RebekahsZ]

So, with the right set up, I should be able to go flat out for four hours repeatedly slowing from 110 to 30mph and only have to change pads for wear and possibly exchange fluid? Rotors should hold up? And when I do a pad change, I should just have to change them, do two easy laps to bed them then get back after it? Brake related spares could be an extra set of pads, an extra set of rotors and some fluid, If that is what I can expect, I can be ready next spring and another hard track day. Thanks guys for helping me set expectations-that's really what I needed.

[tube80z]

Here's a document from Performance Friction with a lot of good information, http://www.starmazda.com/competitors/2009/resource-cd/PFC%20Brake%20handbook.pdf.

 

One thing we found on the EP car (which is underbraked) is cryo treating the rotors will make them last longer.  Before this we sometimes had to change discs every day.  Because of class rules the discs are small and you have all kinds of issues you shouldn't have to deal with.  As Mike said lots of air will help and Jon's idea of a fluid recirculator would help alot.  The EP car has modified backing plates for air into the rotors and a custom scoop to force air into the calipers around the pads.  

[beermanpete]

So, with the right set up, I should be able to go flat out for four hours repeatedly slowing from 110 to 30mph and only have to change pads for wear and possibly exchange fluid? Rotors should hold up? And when I do a pad change, I should just have to change them, do two easy laps to bed them then get back after it? Brake related spares could be an extra set of pads, an extra set of rotors and some fluid, If that is what I can expect, I can be ready next spring and another hard track day. Thanks guys for helping me set expectations-that's really what I needed.

 

That has been my experience so far. The car had 2 drivers both days at the last event so it got about 8 hours of total track time and the pads barely changed thickness and the brake fluid level barely dropped. We have yet to replace a rotor in the front after 4 years of race track use. At the rear we only have 2 events on the disk brake conversion but it seems to be holding up very well.

[Mikelly]

I pulled and inspected all my stuff before the VIR event. The pads (*front and rear) along with the rotors might have 4 hours total on them. I mic'ed everything when I installed them and re-mic'ed everything in May. I have ZERO wear on my pads and rotors. ALL the components that are wear related have zero wear. Proper fluids, proper pad compounds, proper cooling all have worked well for me. This is the SAME setup I used on our spec miata. The Porsche had Pagid pads and Porsche components. I could get between 10-15 days on pads with that car and I would hit 170-180MPH every lap at VIR. I know, I know, its a Porsche... Point is cold air, good fluid (I always use RBF600), and great pads (minimum of 1/4 inch of pad material on all rotors) will always provide you with a day at the track, assuming healthy rotors. And Cary is correct. Cryotreated rotors work for a reason... There is a whole cottage industry around it.

[m1noel]

I really like my Willwood setup.  While we don't have a track anywhere near here, I would not expect to have any issues with the pads or rotors for a weekend at a track.  I think with proper fluid and cooling ducts they  would last many sessions.

[clarkspeed]

Brakes are all about heat management. It's the tires that stop you. So if you are really driving hard, you have to get rid of the heat. Cooling ducts, high temp fluid, track pads, cyro rotors, etc all help with a stock setup, pad thickness and rotor thickness are most critical. Larger rotors and calipers make a big difference but may be against rules.

[tyson]

I had carbotech make a set of pads for a ~91 Mitsubishi Mirage powered by a 4g63 that I ran in the 24 hours of Lemons in 2007, it was a straight 24 hour race.

 

We bedded the pads right before the race and didn't have one single problem throughout.  Personally, I swear by their product and will be having some made for my 240 once it's time to change pads.

 

I believe there's a big difference between the manufacturers of "race" pads and manufacturers who build race pads specifically for the type of event you are doing.

[RebekahsZ]

Wow-24hrs on one st of pads! Awesome.

[RebekahsZ]

Wow-24hrs on one st of pads! Awesome.

[Mikelly]

Which is 180 degrees from what we experienced with some Carbotechs on the Specmiata.  Burned thru them in a weekend with two drivers driving the car at a DE, about 3.5 hours track time.  After all the good we had heard, and as expensive as they were, we were sorely disappointed.

 

Whichever pad you choose, make sure they also work with your braking style.  On the Porsche Pagid RS29s would wear grear and you could get about 15 hard DE days out of the rears and 9 out of the fronts (with GT3 6piston calipers and 14 inch rotors) but they lacked initial bite and also had complaints of drag.  Pagid RS14s (their Black pad) was a better alternative with better initial bite, and decent wear.  The Performance Friction PF01/03/06 pads were a good product alternative. 

 

I've run the Hawk blacks on several cars so I figured I'd run them on the Zcar.  They work well but require a little heat initially.   I may try the EBC YellowStuff pads on the Mustang.  They are getting decent reviews from a few of the DE guys running them on several platforms.

 

 

I had carbotech make a set of pads for a ~91 Mitsubishi Mirage powered by a 4g63 that I ran in the 24 hours of Lemons in 2007, it was a straight 24 hour race.

 

We bedded the pads right before the race and didn't have one single problem throughout.  Personally, I swear by their product and will be having some made for my 240 once it's time to change pads.

 

I believe there's a big difference between the manufacturers of "race" pads and manufacturers who build race pads specifically for the type of event you are doing.