KidandhisCar Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Hi gents, I''ve been getting everything in order for my L28 build. Notes for the build: F54 block,and P90 head (Engine comes from a running parts car) Lower end,and top end will be stock minus the camshaft. Lower end,and top end,will be refreshed during the build (new bearings, rings Etc) Going to an aftermarket fuel rail,and Individual coil packs. Higher flow injectors,and MS3 Pro for fuel and ignition delivery. I'm looking to make between 200-250WHP. There are a bunch of very informational threads on turbo selections for 400hp+ builds. but I haven't been able to find much information on a turbo sizing for a build in the lower hp range. I'm only looking to make around 20psi maximum,shooting for around 15psi for normal driving. I havent had much luck finding a turbo just a little larger than stock that will suit my needs. would anyone have any experience in this department? I know i'm looking at a t3/t4, but in what trim? I appreciate the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98blackbell Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 We hit those numbers with using the stock turbo. Issues are that the turbo will spike and dampner for the internal waste gate will not hold above 12lbs. We made 280hp, 310 tq. Ended up loosing the bottom end because of tune. New build is right there at your numbers. Going to a Garrett t3/t4 50 trim and external wastegate. http://www.ebay.com/itm/380099246220?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidandhisCar Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) Exactly the information I'm looking for thank you. I've heard the stocker runs out of breath right around 12psi just like you said. When you say you lost the lower end,i'm assuming detonation had a hand in it? There's alot of other stuff for the build thati didnt list, one of wich is a wideband Air fuel monitor. Edited February 2, 2016 by KidandhisCar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter72 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I had a T3/T4 57 trim, it spooled up really quick.. Enjoyed it a lot. Maybe check into one of those... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FricFrac Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Is there a reason you're going with an MS3Pro? Its a lot of extra money for some waterproof connectors.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidandhisCar Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 There's a few, Smaller more compact size over the MS3,also the full sequential fuel control,and ignition drivers,(im planning on individual Coil packs,one per cylinder.) MS3 has these features only with the msx board installed. It also has a bunch of outputs, for fuel pump control,Fan control, and Iac control. And the price difference isn't excessive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidandhisCar Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Full specs here,more than i'll probably ever need, but i'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. http://www.ms3pro.com/ms3-pro.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98blackbell Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Exactly the information I'm looking for thank you. I've heard the stocker runs out of breath right around 12psi just like you said. When you say you lost the lower end,i'm assuming detonation had a hand in it? There's alot of other stuff for the build thati didnt list, one of wich is a wideband Air fuel monitor. Yes detonation. I was trying to do some fine tuning and totally screwed up timing. We used MS3PRo and well worth the money. Will grow as you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 250HP is doable on a bone stock car... No need to change any parts, not even the EFI. However, since everyone starts at 250HP goal and really what they mean is 1000HP will never be enough... Assuming the engine has less than a billion miles and doesn't make noise and makes good oil pressure when checked with a quality gauge, (10psi at idle and 10PSI for every 1000RPM is ideal) I would do NOTHING and not even open the engine. Fit your injectors and fuel rail, get your choice EMS running on the stock turbo and get it on a dyno and tune it. Then look into a bigger turbo if you haven't blown it up yet. If you have, big deal, slap another stocker in there and go. Tune it until you've either blown it up, Or you've realized that you're up against the 5500RPM "uphill battle" that appears with a completely stock turbo engine. If you have reached 350HP by this time, it's time to crack it open and change a few parts. The "uphill battle" isn't a wall, it's just a spot where you really start to notice that the engine "wants" you to shift up. I believe it's caused by the airspeed in the ports and manifold getting too high, NOT that the ports/manifold won't flow enough air. Once opened up some, or the factory manifold replaced, this "uphill battle" will move up in the RPM band and once over 7000RPM you'll never notice it in a street car. Then, in order of value-for-money: Resize the rods after you've fitted some aftermarket rod bolts. The stockers are good rods, but the rod bolts are the soft spot. This is cheap and worthwhile. Port the manifolds. The exhaust manifold may need some welding to get it done, but welding on it is a great way to un-banana it too if you do the welding carefully. The exhaust manifolds like to bend up at the ends, causing the ports and especially the bolt holes to be out of alignment. Straighten the manifold first. The intake manifold has small-diameter runners, and they can stand to be bigger-even 2-4mm is enough. Work the intake as far up into the runners as you can get, but don't punch it full of holes. Don't go nuts on a stock intake, they won't take a LOT of porting. Have the head ported and a moderate cam fitted. The stock turbo cam is not very aggressive but it is a perfect core for regrinding. The Delta Camshaft "280/.460" grind is great on a turbo on a 109-110 LSA (stock LSA for the turbo cam) and is about as big as I would want to go on a street-only car. The cylinder head porting does not need to be extreme! Forged pistons are a good move at this power level and higher...The stock casties will survive to 450ish crank horsepower under a perfect tune, for at least a short while...Some have better luck, some have worse. But around 350 horsepower on a chassis dyno it's seriously time to consider them. Stock headgasket! NO MLS. You run the MLS gasket, you choose to replace 800$ worth of pistons when you make a tuning mistake. It only takes 22 minutes to swap a headgasket on a ZX turbo, for two guys working at a slightly-quicker-than-normal pace. (Me and RedZedTurbo have done it in this amount of time, I have done it with a pre-setup work environment in less time) Reassemble and get it back on the dyno to tune, and be happy with more power than you can effectively use on the street. It's a blast. Edited February 4, 2016 by Xnke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeZ Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Used a used Holset (don't remember the model) from a Dodge Cummins with stock 280ZX manifold. Also P90a head and F54 block with forged pistons and Schneider cam. Put out 425 hp at the wheels. What a ride. The block was originally built by Turbo Tom Wyatt, III. in 1996. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Just an FYI Ms2 also has outputs for IAC, fuel pump, and a fan circuit is easily installed. Full sequential timing and spark won't really net you any gain especially if you swap out injectors to the common 440cc which will have a different spray pattern. It will leave you room to grow into other motors and such, so if you have the money, not a bad buy at all. Just an FYI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidandhisCar Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 However, since everyone starts at 250HP goal and really what they mean is 1000HP will never be enough... I want to keep this build under 300hp,as this is my DD,and I just dont have the money,to go through the transmission,upgrade the differential,or the Cv's. Just an FYI Ms2 also has outputs for IAC, fuel pump, and a fan circuit is easily installed. Full sequential timing and spark won't really net you any gain especially if you swap out injectors to the common 440cc which will have a different spray pattern. It will leave you room to grow into other motors and such, so if you have the money, not a bad buy at all. Just an FYI. The absolute main reason I want MS3Pro is for the sequential injection,and spark. As far as I can tell,MS3 and lower,offer only wasted spark setups, wether batch fired or group fired. For some reason,I just can't wrap my head around a plug lighting off at the wrong point in it's cycle.It just bother the hell out of me haha. Plus I feel like that could somehow increase my chances of a detonation related kill.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Looks like MS II will drive six coils. You just need more BIP's. http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/using_bosch_bip373s_with_megasquirt.htm Sequential injection is pleasing to think about but apparently adds little above low RPM. The injectors can't squirt all of their fuel while the valves are open and air is flowing. The cylinders can't tell the difference. The SDS guys seem to know some stuff. http://www.sdsefi.com/techseq.htm Wasted spark wastes its spark on the exhaust stroke. There's nothing in the cylinder to burn, and the exhaust valve is open anyway. No pressure or fuel available to cause a detonation. Use the money saved on MS3-Pro to upgrade those other parts. Sorry, just can't let the illogical pass by un-noted. 22 minutes? Are the manifolds left on, and the heads lifted just enough to slip the gaskets out and in? There must be a trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibud Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I was wondering the same. Only done it a few times but 22mins ? It usually takes me at least 1/2 day to make sure everything is torqued properly. Yes ms2 will drive 6 coils, I have one that I got from a buddy using ford coils. now if I could just learn how to tune ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Looks like MS II will drive six coils. You just need more BIP's. http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/using_bosch_bip373s_with_megasquirt.htm Sequential injection is pleasing to think about but apparently adds little above low RPM. The injectors can't squirt all of their fuel while the valves are open and air is flowing. The cylinders can't tell the difference. The SDS guys seem to know some stuff. http://www.sdsefi.com/techseq.htm Wasted spark wastes its spark on the exhaust stroke. There's nothing in the cylinder to burn, and the exhaust valve is open anyway. No pressure or fuel available to cause a detonation. Use the money saved on MS3-Pro to upgrade those other parts. Sorry, just can't let the illogical pass by un-noted. 22 minutes? Are the manifolds left on, and the heads lifted just enough to slip the gaskets out and in? There must be a trick. The main reason to use sequential injection is to allow better control over your fuel delivery at low load/idle when using larger injectors (larger than 50lb/hr or so). If you are having to get down into the sub- 2mS pulsewidth range at idle without sequential injection, then doubling the pulsewidth is really helpful/neccessary. For a <300hp build, you probably won't need to use injectors that are large enough to require this. Edited February 10, 2016 by TimZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Wasted spark might seem strange, but the only way the wasted spark could detonate would be if you went thorough the entire combustion stroke without a combustion event (it would have already detonated at this point from the compression most likely). Lots of cars run in that format. Once again, the MS3pro is going to have lots of features and tons of room to grow, but it is going to require a lot more wiring to take advantage of those features which it seems like you won't be seeing any difference in. The reason I brought it up is that the price is nearly $1000 more then the lower end units. And given your modest goals quite overkill. You could spend the $1000 on a lot of other things. Then again, if you plan on keeping this ECU for all your future cars it is not a terrible investment as it will run everything without the need for drivers, granted MS is always changing and outdating itself so yea. If you haven't yet, I would throw an intercooler into the mix. I've seen numbers in the 200+ range without one, but still would prefer to see one, if you are against an intercooler I would like to see some meth injection at least. Blow off valve would keep the turbo flutter at a minimum. Electronic boost controller would help dial in the boost across the rev range and can be easily driven by megasquirt. Honestly I'd be tempted to check the compression on the motor and if it checks out, maybe reseal it and just run a modest boost increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98blackbell Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 My vote is for the MS3Pro. It was simple, just make sure you know what your doing with the tune. Can be an expensive learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Looks like MS II will drive six coils. You just need more BIP's. http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/using_bosch_bip373s_with_megasquirt.htm Sequential injection is pleasing to think about but apparently adds little above low RPM. The injectors can't squirt all of their fuel while the valves are open and air is flowing. The cylinders can't tell the difference. The SDS guys seem to know some stuff. http://www.sdsefi.com/techseq.htm Wasted spark wastes its spark on the exhaust stroke. There's nothing in the cylinder to burn, and the exhaust valve is open anyway. No pressure or fuel available to cause a detonation. Use the money saved on MS3-Pro to upgrade those other parts. Sorry, just can't let the illogical pass by un-noted. 22 minutes? Are the manifolds left on, and the heads lifted just enough to slip the gaskets out and in? There must be a trick. Nope, manifolds removed, but just lay in the car. exhaust stays on the car, timing chain is dropped with the blue plastic wedge type chain block. Head comes up, out of the car, both gasket faces cleaned and wiped down, new headgasket on and head back on. 22 minutes. We've done it "a few" times. The heatshield is not installed on the bottom of RedZedTurbo's intake manifold, and that helps a lot. When you have a stack of intake/exhaust and headgaskets that when pressed flat measure 2.75" thick, it really doesn't take much time to get those manifolds on and off. I don't think we timed re-filling the coolant in that though. Personal best was on my 240Z, with the current header and intake on it I've done a headgasket job in a little over 8 minutes. Didn't want to keep my date waiting and she wanted a ride in the Z. She is probably the best "tool-hander" I've ever had, however she is an OR nurse so not surprising. That was when I was running the 9.7:1 CR N42 head with 9lbs of supercharger boost, took a few headgaskets before I swapped to the P90. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I actually have two photo documented head changes like this, one on my 260Z the day before driving 18,000 miles in a three week trek, the other in a LeMons thrash... I straddle the towers and just lift the head with manifolds attached. After I suggested to JeffP there is no reason to pull all that stuff for only a head gasket change...he whined because he had girly arms and couldn't manually lift the assembly... "Well son, that's why you got a lifting strap, a 2x12 rafter in your garage, and that fancy come-along there. I don't think,JeffP called me over to help lift a head after that. Or anybody else for that matter. Growing up in the frozen tundra makes one self sufficient in terms of mechanical repairs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FricFrac Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) There is no difference between an MS3X and the MS3Pro other than the significant extra expense for weather proof connectors. MS3X will let you run full seqential fuel and spark. Any MS can run the fuel pump, IAC, EFan. The 3X is a daughter card that you add to a regular MS3 to expand it's input/output capability. MS2 does not have the built in drivers for wasted spark for coils that don't have their own drivers built in. You need to add two additional BIP drivers to run wasted spark on coils that don't have their own drivers built in. You can, however, run wasted spark from an MS2 with COP/CNP if they have their own build in drivers. For the extra $100 to go from MS2 to MS3 the extra features and a more future proof system makes it worthwhile IMHO. For your build a regular MS3 and single coil is completely capable - spend the money on COP/CNP on a more efficient turbo system and you'll be farther ahead. Spend the extra $100 on the MS3 vs MS2 gives you more options down the road for upgrading by adding an MS3X daughter card, knock sensor board, etc. Edited February 23, 2016 by FricFrac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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