Guest ac260z Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I am statring on a sbc swap for my 260. Since the oriignal Datusn brakes really suck! I was wondering what different systems are out there to handle the increase in power? I am looking to spend about 1000 to 1200 for this part of the project. Is that realistic for a decent brake setup? Thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j260z Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 check out http://www.modern-motorsports.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 What size wheels? You can run the JSK kit inside MOST 15" wheels. Modern-Motorsports makes a 13" brake kit which is gigantic and will clear MOST 16" wheels IIRC. 13" is damn huge, but some of the hardcore roadracers say unnecessary, John Coffey in particular. You would NEVER fade them though. I chose the JSK kit based on my 15" wheels and price of the kit overall. JSK's is not complete, just rotor hats, bolts and caliper mounting bracket, you can buy your rotors, calipers and pads to suit your needs. There are a couple of us just doing this now, so we can help if you decide to go the JSK route. Looks like my JSK front kit is going to end up at about $550, but that is not including ss lines, master cyl, and adj prop valve which I already have. Only the front end too, but I think its a pretty killer deal. I scored on ebay on the kit too. Would have been $675 or so otherwise. Still an excellent deal at that price. http://www.jskinnovations.com The page for the normal 4 lug 70-78 stuff isn't working right now for some reason, but this one for the 5 lug setup does work. The kit is basically the same except the hat is made for the 5 lug on this one and the one I bought has a shallower (is that a word?) hat for the 4 lug. http://www.jskinnovations.com/Wilwood3.htm Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Since the oriignal Datusn brakes really suck! But, they don't. Lots and lots of road racers use the stock Datsun brake system with great success on tracks across the country. EDIT: I can't type... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 The combination of pad compound, ducting and adjustment needed to make the stock brakes function at an OK level as a race car is not convenient or usable on a weekend warrior IMO. Pure street car, maybe, but not for anything that's driven hard on a track or even on a long canyon road. I've never heard an ITS or any other road racer sing the praises of the stock brakes. They were good for 1970, but time moves on. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Chet Whittle was pretty happy with the brakes on his ARRC winning ITS 240Z. Bryan Lampe's happy with the brakes on his Cal Club ITS winning 240Z. Yes, you can improve on them and most people do (including myself) if the rules allow, but the stock Datsun brakes don't suck. For a street car, which isn't very hard on the brakes, the stock setup works fine if properly maintained. But, as I sometimes forget, this is HybridZ and brake mods are part of the hybridization process. For reference, I'm runnign the following: Outlaw 2800 4 piston calipers all around - 1.75" pistons front and 1.25" pistons rear. Hawk Black or Performance Friction pads. Coleman 11.25" diameter vented .810 thick front rotors. Brembo solid rear rotors. Tilton master cylinders and balance bar. Tilton prop valve. Stainless lines with AN 37 degree fittings. Air ducting (coming soon). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Since the oriignal Datusn brakes really suck! But, they don't. Lots and lots of road racers use the stock Datsun brake system with great succuss on tracks across the country. You are right, just bleeding the stock system with some good fluid and putting a set of Porterfields all the way around would give most Z owners all the brakes they'd ever need. (the pads are the most important part!) Now, they might not be "optimum" for track days, but for street & strip, they'd be more than adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Granted, I've probably got more suspension and tire than most track day types, but this is what happened to my PORTERFIELD R4S pads in a single day at the track. This was with SU's and a lower compression L6. Probably have 40-50 more horses now, maybe even more, but certainly not as much as the V8 guys or most of the turbo guys on this forum. http://hybridz.org/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=lastup&cat=14901&pos=0 http://hybridz.org/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=lastup&cat=0&pos=0 Not sure why I can't get these to post right, but the link works anyway. I've run R4 pads on the street, and I don't think its a good idea. They work ok if you keep them warm, but I had a long commute where I wouldn't touch the brakes for 20-25 minutes, and they'd need to heat up before they would work when I got back into town. I just left a lot of breathing room and was extra careful. I have nothing against the R4S pads, in fact I think they would work great on a JSK setup like Afshin is doing, but for the stock setup they can't take the heat that I was able to generate. Note that there is NO pad material left. I got them so hot I'm pretty sure I delaminated the pad material. The rest of the brake system at the time was 280ZX rear disc, ZX master, adjustable prop valve, ATE SuperBlue fluid. This happened at Buttonwillow going clockwise at the end of the bus stop at 95-100 mph (this was the first time that I was able to get on the gas off the hill and keep my foot in it all the way to the end of the bus stop--what a rush! ) . Luckily there is nothing to hit right there. No damage to me, my passenger or the car, just a lot of dust inside, and the Mustang got away. Went to the local parts store, bought some semi-metallics and drove home. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I gave up on Porterfields for the reason's you cite above. Bryan Lampe and Erik messley lost the 2001 Cal Club Enduro precisely because he ran the Porterfield R4 pads. He had a two lap lead on Frank H and Mark Jones in E2 but we had to stop and do a front pad swap which took 5 minutes longer then the mandated 10 minute pit stop. One of the pad backing plates had warped and we had to pull the right caliper to get it out. Burnt the crap out of my hands through the thick leather gloves I was wearing. In 2002 Bryan ran Hawk Blues and the pads lasted the entire 3 hours without a swap. Unfortunately, his fuel pump didn't. Checmically burned my arms this time 'cuz I was elbow deep in the full fuel cell making sure the pickups hadn't come off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ac260z Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 When I said that the stock brakes sucked I was calling on my own experience with them. It sounds like some people have really played around with them to try and tune them. The farthest I have gone with them is to put set of EBC Greens up front. In the z it made little difference, wheras in my BMW it was dramatic. Due to no venting on the rotor they seem to get too hot and hit fade out fast. Since part of this project is an LS1 conversion I definetly want something that will not hit fade out so quickly and be able to stop 350rwhp in a reasonable distance. I appreciate all of the input and enjoy the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 quickly and be able to stop 350rwhp in a reasonable distance. Horsepower has nothing to do with the brakes. Momentum and mass are what the brakes have to deal with. A 150hp, 2,500lb car going 100mph requires the same rate of heat conversion under hard braking as a 500hp, 2,500lb car going 100mph. For a street car that will occur one time with a long cooling off period before the next hard brake application. Mass in the rotors and calipers help with this type of brake usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Good point John. However, most often, at least in street use, more horsepower equal more rapid accleration into open "slots" on the highway for passing..; and more rapid accleration means more speed and momentum requiring by default enough braking force and torque to slow the car down in proper proporpotion to the acceleration/momentum rate building capacity. More hp = more acceleration = need for rapid deceleration I can tell you that after increasing the horsepower on my car, the stock brakes (properly set up) felt out of balance with the car, even while the braking capacity did not change. They still worked "fine", but then fine never did it for me (off course I also needed an excuse to get the JSK/Wilwwod kit). The wife: are you still waisting money on your Z? Oh no honey, this is for safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 The wife: are you still waisting money on your Z? Oh no honey, this is for safety Safety First LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy85 Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 So what exactly are the secrets to making the stock brake work well (pads/ss lines/fluid/??)? Which pads? I'll be autoxing and street driving neither of which are hard on brakes IMO, but I'm used to my SVT Focus. It came from the factory with 13" vented fronts and 12" non-vented rears, 2700 lb, and really sticky low profile tyres so it stops NOW. I dont want to change the Z brakes for the sake of changing them I just want to match the performance of my SVT. Right now the brakes are just plain scary - I know it's got rear ss lines and good looking shoes (not sure what type) but haven't looked at the fronts yet. Just replaced the booster but it still seems to take A LOT of pedal effort to get the thing to stop. Thanks Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 R4S pads and green stuff shoes, good brake fluid, ss lines, and adjust the rears properly. That should be all you ever need for autox. You shouldn't have that much pedal effort with stock brakes, some, but not stand on it to get the car to stop type of effort. Makes me wonder if something else is going on. Used booster? Rebuilt? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Disassemble, clean, and rebuild your master cylinders. Spend some time going through your calipers to make sure the seals are new, the pistons fit correctly in the bores, the calipers are centered over the rotor, and are square to the rotor faces. Rebuild your rear wheel cylinders and make sure the bores are not pitted, the pistons move freely, and the seals are new. Have your drums turned so that both have the same ID. Run the pads and shoes Jon mentions above. Get REAL racing stainless steel brake lines (forget the DOT approved SS stuff - most of that is chrome plated brass fittings). Bench bleed the master, thoroughly bleed the system using a good brake fluid like Motul 600, ATE Super Blue, Ford HD, Castrol SRF, etc. Adust the rear brake drums until they drag slightly while spun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 quickly and be able to stop 350rwhp in a reasonable distance. Horsepower has nothing to do with the brakes. A 500 hp car and a 150 hp car on a track does make a difference in braking requirements. If the 150hp car is at 100 mph at it's braking point the 500 hp car will be going atleast 130. On the street HP makes no difference as You only will need one good stop, but stock brakes on a high HP Z on a track is pointless, if not dangerous IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 You guys are arguing wording as much as anything else. The stock brakes may not “suck†and they obviously can be made to work if the rules require stock brakes. But the fact most serious racers do upgrade the brakes tells me something. Also your caveat “properly maintained†is correct but dangerous. When I read some of John’s posts on what he does to his car on a regular basis I am amazed. He obviously knows what it takes to win, but what street guy is going to go through all that every year? I think we should be strongly encouraging people to factor in a brake upgrade as part of the cost of their V8 conversion. BTW, I have a 70 240 and I am convinced the master cylinders had insufficient volume on those cars. There were quite a number of times where I would brake quickly and every now and then the car would feel like it didn’t want to stop. I was often tempted to double pump the brakes to get it to grab better. That might have been something specific to my car, but I have talked to others who said the same thing. A larger diameter MC and SS brake lines fixed that problem for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ac260z Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 A larger diameter MC and SS brake lines fixed that problem for good. Which mc have you used to correct that problem? I heard the zx has a larger bore, is it large enough for the desired volume increase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j260z Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 i would also mention that, with the added horsepower and torque of an LT1 going into my car, i like the idea of rear discs because if i do break a stub axle there is still something holding the rear wheel onto the car... other than the emergency brake cable and brake line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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