240Z2NV Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 We have a great mix of people on this wonderful site, from all backgrounds and all ages, all education levels, and all experience/knowledge levels. However, most of our community believe in the original 'creedo' of treating people well and embracing our shared interests...optimizing our Zs. I usually can pick out the 'undesirables' by the way that they communicate in various threads; but, one caught me by surprise. Ivan280ZT is one of those individuals who clearly lacks the capacity to bring to this community as much as he receives. He promoted, on this site, the sale of a used set of Tokico Illuminas for a 240Z. They had very little time in use, according to Ivan, and the price was right. We agreed on the transacation and it concluded. Having received the struts, my first concern was how strut bodies could be so scratched and rusty with so little mileage. I should have listened to that little inner voice of caution; but, no, I figured not a 'Hybrider', they're all stand-up people. This is the lesson that I'd like all of you to heed. My shell has been on a rotisserie since about March, as my focus on the project ebs and flows. After some time, I began to examine the struts further, as I was toying with the idea of sectioning my struts for the coilovers just as a distraction from the undercarriage/chassis monotony. A fellow Hybrider, who knows considerably more than I about suspensions, looked at the struts to verify their condition and advised me that two of them were 'shot'. Now, this isn't the rub. I know that they are warranted for Life, and felt that I could resolve any 'replacement' with Tokico directly. Here is the rub...THE STRUTS IN QUESTION ARE FOR AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CAR! I was sold two 240Z rear struts and two 280ZXT front struts. I'll try to cut to the chase. Ivan has chosen to take the position of "they were sold 'As Is', and it's not my fault..." This is the Dark Side of internet communities like the Hybrid Forum. I foolishly assumed that shared interests automatically qualified us as upstanding, mature people with integrity. This youngster Ivan, clearly isn't 'long enough in the saddle' to understand that we reap what we sow. As a student, he isn't being taught what his parents should have in his formative years...Integrity. My responsibility in this is not listening to that 'inner voice of caution', being too cheap to buy new stuff, and assuming that others in a community that covers many continents are all upstanding folks. I'll have to eat half of my purchase from this individual at minimum, as I don't even know if the rears are any good until I get them installed which is quite a while off. I just want those of you who share my naive assumption of honor to be a little more cautious, and those of you, possibly the younger set on our site, to think about how you want to be treated by others before you snicker at taking someone for a 'ride', because it all comes back full circle...always. Sorry for the long winded sermon; but Ivan280ZT should not be welcome here...and you others, young or 'old' , would your Mother be proud of your actions.... How's that for an edit. I've heard far more stories of those not taking responsibility in similar instances being younger rather than older. If you have a clear conscience, the implication should be irrelevant; but, if the key notion is lost because of a perceived generalization, then I have failed to properly caution fellow participants. And yes, it was authorized for me to post the warning, and yes, Ivan was given several opportunities to remedy the situation. Again, it is regrettable that more attention was given to the notion that some of our young forum members might think about their actions more, as opposed to the more important issue of personal responsibility and integrity...core values that become more and more scarce it sometimes seems. Will it make some of you feel better if I say that some of us old guys may not be so decent, either? Ok, it's been said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsCoupe Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 What happened was really shitty and i agree that it was totally wrong, but i dont agree with your statment that us "youngsters" are the ones doing it. Age doesnt have anything to do with a persons morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 i never had a prob with Ivan, and i know a few people on this forum who has delt great with him and is great friends with him. was this thread okay'ed by a Mod on this forum? and me being a youngster i take what you said as very close minded. ive been screwed over by a few people on this site and not ONE was a younger person. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-REX Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 first off, what happened was uncalled for and shocking. secondly, i'm 27. i'm not old by my estimation, not young either based on how i feel when i wake up some mornings (neither here nor there.) thirdly, i have never screwed anyone, and neither have a great deal of the younger hybridz community or the younger generation in general. so with that said i find your comments in regard to my age bracket to be in very poor taste and i am incredibly offended. this is no less prejudice than racism, sexism or homophobia and just because you got taken for a ride you have absolutely no right to generalize in the manner which you have chosen to. yes i am young. i am also a family man and the manager of a multi-million dollar business (not that i see nearly enough of it...) and i think i speak for alot of the younger members of this community when i say that your baseless generalization has no place on this forum and that such judgmental opinions should be kept directly where they belong... TO YOURSELF. thanks for your time...bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanomon Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 That really stinks what happened to you however, I'm not sure what constitutes a "youngster" beacuse according to the "old dudes" at work, we who are 30-40 something are the so called "kids" here at work. When my kids and their kids would consider me way old. Two wrongs never have, nor ever will, make anything right. Charicter and integrity know no spicific age preference. Buyer Beware Bro. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastzcars Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Sorry to hear what happened to you. And I find it disgracefull. However I believe your anger in this persons conduct may have influenced your comments. My dad is 75 years old, and he calls me a "youngster". And I'm 42. But bad conduct knows no age limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Guys, I'll caution you to use restraint here... I hope that Ivan steps up and makes this situation right... That said, There are always three sides to a story such as this, so lets please use caution here... And as always, BUYER BEWARE... Mike 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastzcars Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 I totaly agree with you mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeizm Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 3 Sides!?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedWild Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 3 Sides!?!! Each person view, and then the non-bias all seeing view (aka the truth) God is watching YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Had to jump in here. Younger. Younger than what? The earth? Come on guys the guy is VENTING!!! Get off his ass. You tell him to keep it to himself why don’t you keep your opinion to YOURSELF? You can't, neither can I. He points out the culprit immediately. This youngster Ivan, clearly isn't 'long enough in the saddle' to understand that we reap what we sow Older members= school of hard knocks. He's just trying to share wisdom here, not a direct strike at anybody under the age of 100. possibly the younger set on our site Here we see that the majority of what he has "heard" in the past. Again NOT a strike at younger <100 years old. I've heard far more stories of those not taking responsibility in similar instances being younger rather than older This is an apology going out to the “younger†members on the board. So why are you guys jumping on him? Again, it is regrettable that more attention was given to the notion that some of our young forum members Redemption, period. Will it make some of you feel better if I say that some of us old guys may not be so decent, either? Ok, it's been said... Come on Ivan, you've been called out. Time to make good on this. Let the buyer beware? I think the parts were misrepresented. So who voted for Kerry? haha ds BTW I'm 35 and the youngest in my office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-REX Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 i'd also like to publicly apologize for ripping apart the part of the post which was not the core issue. also, i'd like to commend the original poster for his edit, which made the tone of the post much less negative toward any group in particular. anger is a gift... but it must be metered effectively. an english teacher once taught me about the difference between "emotion" and "passion"... passion is emotion with the second thought to make it powerful without coming off as rash. there are far too many cases where the younger generation comes under attack because of the actions of an unfortunate few, but the rest of us are left to "reap the rewards." when my sermon was written, i looked at this as just another one of those instances. in any case... i hope this conflict is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties involved... buyer, seller, and the community they both represent. bob (27 and occasionally defensive about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Here I am at 27 years old and didn't consider myself part of the younger crowd. Maturity is a virtue that seems to be fading in a lot of people. HybridZ members included. Fortunately, I feel there are more good than bad around these parts and I'm still generally trusting of the HybridZ community. When I got screwed here, I chose not to list the name of the individual that did it. I wanted to, but I didn't want to get into a he said/she said argument based on opinions that people had of this individual through prior dealings. Funny thing is...............this person hasn't posted here in about 2 months, right after my situation was brought to light, coincidence?? He'll get his in the end..... By the way, he's at least 5-10 years older than I.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aaron Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 3 Sides!?!! Each person view' date=' and then the non-bias all seeing view (aka the truth) God is watching YOU! [/quote'] Or as I have always heard/said it. His side, Her side and the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z2NV Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 The unfortunate result of this thread turning 'Toxic' was that the real fundamental issue of 'doing unto others...' was lost in my poorly phrased 'sermon'. I did make some edits that I felt were constructive to get back to the key issue of integrity; but, my 'juices' were flowing when I composed the original post and the younger set here was (un)justifiably upset. As stated before, if you can look into the mirror with a clear conscience then any perceived indictment of young vs. old is irrelevant. My motivation for the post in the first place was to inspire the 'offender' to see how his actions would be perceived in a community of which he presumably valued. I made several requests of him that he do 'the right thing', and they were ignored, so I hoped that the masses here would inspire appropriate conduct on his part. For this, I would happily have posted a retraction with an appropriate commendation for his stepping up and remedying a bad transaction. This is NOT the desired path that I wanted this whole thing to take in the first place. I had such high regard for this 'community' as a whole; but, as a result of this thread I have learned that these kind of bad-faith transactions aren't that uncommon. Very, very sad. I have been taken advantage of a couple of times (on eBay, on the LS1 forums, and craigslist); but, somehow I just thought that our hybrid community was immune to that type of person (regardless of age) via our common 'bond'. Some of you 'got it' the first go round, others were 'blinded' by my poorly constructed association of age. In actuality, integrity and maturity are far more telling than chronological age markers. I wish that the thread could have been more inspirational....not only to Ivan, but to those of you who get some sort of satisfaction out of 'shorting' your fellow enthusiasts. At this juncture, I'm not terribly optimistic; however, as stated before, nothing would please me more than to proudly compose a retraction for this individual should he choose to respect our community through his actions. Some of our Admins. were thrown into this frying pan, when all I wanted to do was keep it amongst the general 'population' as a compelling reason for Ivan to make good on a transaction that went bad...regardless of intent. Again, maybe it will be left to 'die on the vine', and maybe I should just take my lessons learned in stride silently; but, I had such incredibly high regard for this particular community...though not totally conviced that it was justified. We should all aspire for better, shouldn't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 77vegasz Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Its all relative. I am 43, and every year my ideas of young and old shifts. The point is that the guy was ripped off. We should thank him for the heads up. I have been ripped off on a couple of E-bay items and I know exactly how he feels. At least E-bay was strangers, here, we are all supposed to be helping each other! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 First of all.....I am making this post, not as an Admin of HybridZ, but as a general member, and these opinions are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of the Admins and Mods of this board. That said...... I think that anyone who screws a buyer by knowingly misrepresenting the items for sale is scum. Someone who, in our 'close knit' Hybrid Z community, does it, is worse than scum. If a seller sells items that turn out not to be what was advertised, and doesn't make an effort to rectify the situation is in that same category and I think it fitting to have them called out in this fashion to answer for these issues. I know 240Z2NV personally and can wholly attest to his integrity, and can safely say that his posting here was his last resort to get some kind of response from the seller. I have bought, sold, traded, swapped and 'donated' many items here on HZ and have never had a problem. I still think that these type of issues are an anomoly here, but we are a much smaller community than E-bay, LS1.com, Zcar.com etc etc etc, and I would expect sellers on this board to be held to a higher level of integrity than the other boards...... My 2c worth.....'nuff said from me....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I have known and been very good friends with Ivan personally for about 4 years. I know his family as well. They come from a land of war, Bosnia. He knew war at his door step untill his family and him moved to America. He has upmost respect for human life and what it stands for. I was there when he got his Z and put it togeather. He bought struts for a 240Z and he got what he got. ( from a local small speed shop ) Why on earth would he knowingly sell a combo of 240Z and 280ZXT struts? At any rate if they are 280ZXT struts he didnt know about it until you found out about it. I rode in the car with the struts in so I know they were in his Z. And I know they had very little mileage on them. I know Ivan is a honest person and am proud to call him a close friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2slo4u Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Is there any possibility there was miscommunication before the sale? Maybe you and Ivan did not express the specifications of the product(s) clearly enough to eachother and he could have inadvertently sold you the "incorrect" type. Maybe the zx struts worked on his car because of modification and he forgot or did not realize your car needed the original front struts. It could have just been an honest mistake. Maybe you weren't clear about which front struts you needed or possibly you did not pay close enough attention to the details because you were concentrating on the great price? Either way, there's no reason to rub someone's name in the dirt on a public forum such as ours. Take care of your business with him FIRST and THEN let us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I think that anyone who screws a buyer by knowingly misrepresenting the items for sale is scum. Someone who' date=' in our 'close knit' Hybrid Z community, does it, is worse than scum.[/quote'] AMEN brother!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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