HybridZ vs contemporary cars: RE: How Fast, really?

[lesd]

As I contemplate my LT1 engine plans for my 73 240Z, I have some basic questions I must ask myself. Other than an interesting engineering hobby, what exactly is the performance envelope that I will be able to reach? As all of you probably know, the level of performance that you get with modern cars is pretty damned high. I'm not even talking about the Z06 Vettes, I'm talking about the kinds of cars that housewives are driving. Take off the chip ECU limits, and these cars go 130 mph to 160 mph , all while listening to the CD player and the navigation system telling you where to find a Greek diner !

I'm researching the transmission I want to use, and find that the overdrive is like *mandatory* for comfortable freeway drives. You have all seen the muscle car guys out on a nice Sunday afternoon, motoring down the freeway at 65 mph while most of the traffic is passing them up. God help them if they have to drive a few hundred miles like that. No way I want to be stuck in that category !

 

Other that auto-cross driving, I would bet that the V8 Z drivers are 'game' for an occasional freeway roll on type of situation. Sometimes, if the freeway is empty, and everything is clear, it may get a little over the speed limit! There is no white line that shows 'it's over'.

Now we are talking European style car performance here. As in the basic " how fast does it go? "

 

Have others experienced this mph freeway situation, say along side a Viper/German car/etc?

 

Just some random thoughts!

 

-Les ( 73 240z , 327 right now, soon to be LT1 )

[ULISES]

Im going to give it my thought's,

 

I'm very happy with my Z if I had the chance to start over I would do it again and again.My brother bought a 240Z to do the same but got disapointed on how louder it is over the Z and other differences.Don't get me wrong we are used to 280Z's I guess.The 240Z has a lighter body and the addvantage of not requiring smog......Well since I own the 280Z and know how long and how much,I told him not to start this project due to being similar as mine.I told him to get something else like a 04 ZO6 or something similar add some kind of boost,set up the suspencion and enjoy it....

 

I'm thinking about buying a modern sports car after the Z is done,I want all the gooddies from today, even though you can run a cruise control,Navigation system on your old Z its always going to feel different...

 

So I think I just said have them both....lol

 

Edit:I drive traffic speed and I pulled on a C6 not long ago.....

[lesd]

Ya, it is nice to have the comforts of a new car. I am building my car as a weekend car, so I feel I can give up the solid feel. When I close the door of my 240Z, to me I always think it sounds cheap, like a tin can. But tin cans are very light ....

I get way more looks than a $70,000 corvette, and mine is not that tricked out yet.

 

Your exhaust system is the best looking setup I've seen. Dare I ask how much that cost to fab up ? Is it all stainless ? WOW !

 

-Les

[jt1]

Like a lot of things, it depends on the level of mods, but a nicely done HybridZ is capable of Z06/Viper performance, maybe more. The newer cars have more tire on them, which is an advantage, but the Z is lighter.

 

John

[Gollum]

I know it's not 100% of what a car is, but most people here on hybridz are very weight conscious. A 240Z can be VERY light. And what does tire give you? Well grip levels come from MANY different factors, but all things being equal a lighter car only needs the same proportion of tread to it's weight, so you don't needs as wide of tires as a 3000+ pound car. The less rotating mass of the thinner rims and less rubber further increase how light the car feels for a much more responsive feel.

 

With lighter weight comes other benefits as well. It's gonna get better gas mileage, it's gonna be easier to get to handle well, and it's gonna take less power to make fast, witch helps keep from breaking the bank. A 500+hp motor isn't cheep, no matter what. You can get 250-400hp for very good prices, and in a light Z is a very potent power/weight ratio.

 

Now, you can take this all with a grain of salt as my Z experience isn't all the high. I'm doing my first Z car engine swap (280ZX ->turbo) but I've been around cars for a long time (done plenty of work on fast 11-10 sec hondas). So truth be told, I can't honestly say how fun it is to drive a V8 Z everyday, nor will I know for quite some time since I don't even own a S30 yet, but I'm no idiot on the subject.

 

Just my .02

[Guest Mike]

Old tech + lighter weight = less cost to make it fast.

[ULISES]

Ya, it is nice to have the comforts of a new car. I am building my car as a weekend car, so I feel I can give up the solid feel. When I close the door of my 240Z, to me I always think it sounds cheap, like a tin can. But tin cans are very light ....

I get way more looks than a $70,000 corvette, and mine is not that tricked out yet.

 

Your exhaust system is the best looking setup I've seen. Dare I ask how much that cost to fab up ? Is it all stainless ? WOW !

 

-Les

 

I paid close to 2k for the exhaust,It is all stainless steel,

 

I have been pulled over twice to have ppl ask if I wanted to sell the car,Both drivers were driving nice Lexus.I had been asked when ive been parked a couple times too and here on the net.Lots of ppl like,grew up with these cars and teen's arent letting them go either.I have been a Z fan since I was 17,My first car was a 82 2+2 n/a.Ever since I raced a 240Z and lost I wanted one but I got hooked on 280Z's,I'm happy I did!!!

[dr_hunt]

I think if you matched dollar for dollar a 240z with today's cars, you could end up with most of the latest accouterments like A/C, cruise, stereo, quicker, faster, better handling, better braking and better mpg's. Maybe if you matched $$$ with a C06 vette you could end up with heated power seats, all leather, sound deadening matting, and spank the pants off the vette.

[JMortensen]

If you're looking for comfort, I'd go elsewhere. Newer cars have much more refined suspensions and much better sound, HVAC, ergonomics, etc than your 70's Z car. They'll be quieter inside, ride smoother, do everything better than the old car.

 

What the Z has is a simple, easy to modify chassis, a big engine bay, and a very low starting weight. If you build on its strengths you can make one hell of a fast car, fairly cheaply.

 

[bragging]Now to some extent you have to consider the driver of the other car, but at the big track (not autox, the big track) I've beaten all of the following: Porsche 911T (all the way up to a 2005, which I lapped in a 30 minute session BTW), 944T, 914-6, Toyota Supra Turbo, Mitsu 3000GT VR4, Eclipse GSX and GST, Mustang, Camaro, Vette, 510, and countless other fast cars. But again, it depends on the driver of the other car and the setup, etc.

 

I've beaten a 2005 Porsche 911 around a track with a real Porsche racer at the wheel. That was pretty cool for me. I also came in 12th overall at a Porsche Owners Club track day at Streets of Willow where there were over 150 cars, about 140 Porsches, in various states of tune. I was over 10 seconds slower than the fastest Porsche BTW... that's a LOT slower...

 

DID I MENTION I STILL HAVE THE L6 IN THE CAR, AND ONLY ABOUT 240 WHP???[/bragging]

[280zwitha383]

Old tech + lighter weight = less cost to make it fast.

 

This is true. However, to make it FASTER you're going to have to spend a couple more $$$. I can honestly say I have an incredibly fast car for $7k. However the new Z06 at $70k will just barely whip me (but not for long)....

[mark]

Like a lot of things, it depends on the level of mods, but a nicely done HybridZ is capable of Z06/Viper performance, maybe more. The newer cars have more tire on them, which is an advantage, but the Z is lighter.

 

John

 

John says it all. I've seen him show the tail lights to many high performance cars and I've done the same. John runs a carbed V8 that is a monster and I've got an lt-1. Both are 240Z's.

 

Name a stock production car and one of us has probably ran away from it. Of course all of this is on the track. Neither one of us would ever break the speed limit on public roads.

 

When you start moding Z06's Vipers, GT3's etc, it's another story!

[JIM73240Z]

2fiddyz has some fetish when it comes to racing vipers it seems. clifton can vouch for that. he has the same set up as cliftons. scary fast. 2fiddy said he took down a twin turbo viper after a car show not to long ago. $100g vs $10-15g. then step into pasta rockets. i have several friends with 360 mondellos and 911 gt3s that are waiting for me to finish my z. i should hook them up with clifton or 2fiddy. they just want to see what they can do. most of my friends have accepted that the z will be quicker, just not faster. they have to have one to keep up with the jones. it looks like you can more than compete with new cars with these old one for very little money. that is what makes it fun.

 

jim

[cygnusx1]

IMHO:

 

Driving a Z at 120mph is a sport. Driving a lexus at 120mph....well anyone can do it and talk on the phone.

 

Also, there is one thing that is almost impossible or very difficult to reproduce in a Z. Safety.

 

That said, I feel in much more control of the car in my Z and much more aware of my surroundings in my Z. If I was in a Lexus, I could daydream at 120mph...and that's not safe.

 

Performance/Dollar of HybridZ can't be beat by most, if any, modern car.

[lesd]

Sport bikes and Z06's on a clear open freeway are a challenge.

A stock Z06 goes to about 197 mph.

Any Hybrid Z's hit that ? On a track or dry lake bed ?

Almost the 200 club.

-Les

[JMortensen]

That's not what a Z does best. Read some of the aerodynamics threads to figure out why. A Z06 has much better aero and is quite a bit safer to drive at those speeds. I suggest you start with a different car if hitting 200 mph is your goal.

[Gollum]

Well, in a few of my races (of witch I look bad and regret to some point) I've been at speeds over 140mph. Even my ZX witch is supposed to feel better than a S30 at high speeds kinda starts to scare me at about 110. Now, I still have a lot of suspension restoration/upgrading to do since right now it's completely stock.

 

I still think anything is possible of course with enough time and money. There are other starting chassis witch can be had for cheep enough money that will reach the 200mph limits sooner, but in my experience I don't even want to be 2 lanes away from someone going those speeds.

 

Quick story - (admitted stupidity here and I don't do crap like this anymore and DON'T condone it) I was coming back from a street race with a friend in a low 14-high 13 sec CRX (BAD stock suspension, with upgraded suspension it would have been a solid mid 13 car, as proven by the cars it beat). So what had happened is it got a little hot where we were racing so most people took off. On the way back on the freeway "Hey look, iroc camaro" SWEET. Down shift to 4th, hit 6k and climb. The camaro had started right next to us and was on a DEAD pace with us. We hit 100 like nothing following 110 in seemingly less than a second, 130 doesn't take long, and we climb to 140... at witch point the CRX speedo doesn't read past... oh well, KEEP GOING he's still next to us...

 

...About 3 miles later he pulls off the freeway so we follow him "hey man, what motor do you have in that CRX???" he asks "Stock B16". "Dang that thing is fast" "Do you know how fast we were going?" we ask... "My speedo needle broke around 140 mph so I don't know"...

 

If a cheep cheep cheep CRX with a meer 160 FWHP can keep up with a low 13 sec camaro at speeds above 140, then the main issue (as known by most members of HZ) with the Z is aerodynamics. The CRX is small, light, and had decent aerodynamics. If you could really fix the aero problems with the Z then you'd have a car that would reach 170,180, maybe even close to 200mph, witch in my opinion is totally unnecessary.

 

:::::::Again, I don't condone street racing and those days are long behind me. Keep it safe, keep it real, keep people alive. Even pro drivers crash now and again... on tracks even:::::::::::

[EMWHYR0HEN]

The classic Z's are no where near comparable for todays modern cars....Stock Vs. Stock. Thankfully, they were almost designed to be played with and when enough time and money is put in, I think the Z can cause a threat in all kinds of competitions. I don't know of many cars from the 70's that can do that.

 

From a drivers standpoint, you just cant get the same feeling of raw sportiness in a new car than you can in a Z.

[lesd]

aero problems with the Z, as far as net drag, are a little overrated. The total frontal area is not high, so it works out to be OK. Somewhere here I saw a thread devoted to this, and it included a table with the CD times area, CDa I think it is called.

'Back in the day' when Los Angeles was known for fast cars, there was something called the bonsai club ( sp?) . These guys would go out on the freeways and make 200 mph runs at night. They checked traffic with CB radios.

500 - 600 hp should be all it takes for a 240Z to hit 200.

I don't recommend trying this.

 

Does the 240Z have front end lift issues at speed ? Just curious.

Anyhow, it sounds like it's best to keep the Z at under 120 mph.

-Les

[JMortensen]

aero problems with the Z, as far as net drag, are a little overrated. The total frontal area is not high, so it works out to be OK. Somewhere here I saw a thread devoted to this, and it included a table with the CD times area, CDa I think it is called.

'Back in the day' when Los Angeles was known for fast cars, there was something called the bonsai club ( sp?) . These guys would go out on the freeways and make 200 mph runs at night. They checked traffic with CB radios.

500 - 600 hp should be all it takes for a 240Z to hit 200.

I don't recommend trying this.

 

Does the 240Z have front end lift issues at speed ? Just curious.

Anyhow, it sounds like it's best to keep the Z at under 120 mph.

-Les

It's the LIFT, not the drag that worries me.

 

Mikelly has gone 165+ in a Z with a whale tail and an air dam and unknown other aero mods. The land speed record is 178 or somewhere thereabouts for a Z with a G nose. You can go really fast if you have enough hp. That's not up for debate. Whether or not you can effectively control the car on anything other than a dry lake bed at 180+, that's the issue.

[John Scott]

I have a relatively mild build and haven't seen any Vipers of Vettes that pose a threat, highway roll ons, stoplight wars. At the drags, Local Z06

took a big shot of NX to beat me, and I was still at his rear tire at the end of the 1/4. Its unreal how bad you can beat up so many factory performance cars, Vipers, Vettes, GTOs, Mustangs. Sure they have more technology, refinement, safety. Its just so damn satisfying to blow one of the high dollar cars into the weeds. Pick your battles, check the width of your wallet, then build one accordingly. Of course they're out there, but uncommon to see a faster cars being daily driven.